Stark - the Antagonist?

[The Dames do Moan]

"Starks are the real villains" is the asoiaf version of historical revisionism.

Also, Lady Stoneheart's BWB did not break guest right. There was no guest right being offered in the first place. Sword on the lap.

I don't think anyone's saying the Stark kids are the real villains, unless they are just trolling, but do you not think that there is a chance GRRM takes one of them down a darker path, where the reader doesn't sympathize with them as much?

Also, I agree no guest right was broken in LS's case. Maybe "envoy right" if there is such a thing.

[The Dames do Moan]

Last me ask this question then, to anyone.

For any of the Stark kids that you currently like, is there anything that they could do, in character, that would lead you to start rooting against them?

[bb1180]

Last me ask this question then, to anyone.

For any of the Stark kids that you currently like, is there anything that they could do, in character, that would lead you to start rooting against them?

Acting in-character, its doubtful. They may make bad, stupid and frustrating decisions from the readers' standpoint, but this isn't likely to turn me against them. I don't see any of them as inclined to cause harm to others unless provoked in some way. Even Arya, the most hot-tempered and impulsive of the bunch, is motivated only by a genuine sense of vengeance against those who have harmed her family, and otherwise, does what she has to in order to survive. I can't fault her for that.

So no, I don't see it, without a major change in personality somewhere along the line, and I think its getting awfully late for that.

[Lord Foreshadow]

How does getting revenge on Freys and Lannisters make Cat a villain ? :huh:

Well, I think my impression of her as a villain comes more from what she represents than the acts she's committed. All that is left of her is her hatred and thirst for revenge, and though we empathize with her actions so far, she has become a resurrected avatar of an ancient fire god that likes to burn people alive. Once you're on the team that commits sacrificial immolation, then you're squarely outside of hero territory as far as I'm concerned. Whatever she might have been before her death, now she is animated by a deity whose followers are sacrificing children, making shadow babies, cutting down the weirwoods, hiding behind illusions... We liked Catelyn, but she's not really Catelyn anymore.

[Wouter]

Well, I think my impression of her as a villain comes more from what she represents than the acts she's committed. All that is left of her is her hatred and thirst for revenge,

I repeat: Lady Stoneheart still has the BwB looking for her daughters. She may be driven by revenge, but it's not all that's left.

[SayGen]

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/05/31/george-rrmartin

Even compares them to the Giants, who he is quite a fan of.

Clarification: Giants the football team.

[Lord Foreshadow]

I repeat: Lady Stoneheart still has the BwB looking for her daughters. She may be driven by revenge, but it's not all that's left.

You said that was reported by the Polish translator of an early release Brienne chapter where she is almost executed? That sounds like you're describing Brienne VIII from A Feast for Crows. I just gave that chapter a fresh reread, and I didn't catch any reference to that. Do you know if the reference still exists in the Polish translation of Feast? If we're talking about the same chapter, I imagine that he removed it from the final draft for a reason.

Rereading the chapter did refresh my memory though about the references that gave me the impression that she's more villain than hero now...

1) Her other nicknames: The Silent Sister. Mother Merciless. The Hangwoman.

2) The admission that they actively break the custom of guest right now: "Guest right don't mean so much as it used to," said the girl. "Not since m'lady come back from the wedding. Some o' them swinging down by the river figured they was guests too."

3) Thoros admitting that he believes the brotherhood is on a dark path: "We were king's men when we began," the man told her, "but king's men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark. The fires have not shown me what lies at its end."

4) Thoros remarks about her replacing Beric: "Lightning comes and goes and then is seen no more. So too with men. Lord Beric's fire has gone out of this world, I fear. A grimmer shadow leads us in his place."

5) Thoros remarks that their cause is no longer about justice: "Justice." Thoros smiled wanly. "I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all."

6) She calls for the hanging of young Podrick Payne. Arguably, he admits himself to be a Lannister squire, and so some would suggest he was fair game. Still, King Robb declared Rickard Karstark a murderer and relieved him of his head for killing squires about the same age as Podrick.

In her defense, she may be the one responsible for the Brotherhood watching over the orphanage. We don't really know though.

[HexMachina]

Stone heart does seem to be looking for her children. That is what the Orphanage is for, I believe.

ETA: and, Thoros is a hypocritical coward

[Lord Foreshadow]

Stone heart does seem to be looking for her children. That is what the Orphanage is for, I believe.

ETA: and, Thoros is a hypocritical coward

If she's looking still looking for her children, why didn't she ask even a single question of Brienne about what she might have found during her search for Sansa?

Of all the brothers in the cave, Thoros actually seemed most cognizant of their measures to protect the orphanage, and he's the only one to commend Brienne for protecting the children. A hypocrite for various reasons, sure... but why would Thoros be considered a coward? He's a masterful fighter, defeating Sandor Clegane not once, not twice, but three times in tourney combat. He was the first man over the walls of Pyke during the Greyjoy Rebellion. He volunteered to hunt down the Mountain with Beric. He defied the king when Joffrey demanded him swear fealty. A hypocrite he may be, but he's quite possibly one of the bravest men in all of Westeros.

He cofounded the Brotherhood with the express purpose of protecting the smallfolk. If he says they're on a dark path now, then I believe him.

[LordStoneheart]

I don't think anyone's saying the Stark kids are the real villains, unless they are just trolling, but do you not think that there is a chance GRRM takes one of them down a darker path, where the reader doesn't sympathize with them as much?

Um, that's the premise of your thread. "Antagonist" most often means villain, especially in a classical and romantic sense.

For any of the Stark kids that you currently like, is there anything that they could do, in character, that would lead you to start rooting against them?

Most likely not. Arya has the closest potential for something like that but so far all of her killings have been justified.

[evren]

im my point of view this serie is all about war between religions and influence upon characters.

melisandre-god of light-jon snow-azor ahai-fire.

three eyed crow-god of darkness-bran stark-greenseer-ice.

faceless man(old man,jaqhen h'gar)-many faced god(as they say one true god)-arya stark-assasin-all in one.

maybe i am wrong, maybe all this is nothing but a idle thoughts i dont know i like to think in this way.in my opinion readers must have wider perspective.

[John Doe]

Um, that's the premise of this thread. "Antagonist" most often means villain, especially in a classical and romantic sense.

Not necessarily, the protagonist can be much more villainous than the antagonist.

[John Doe]

To me, the Starks are heroes

-GRRM

So you don't bother with the "to me", meaning everyone should draw their own conclusion.

Nice.

[LordStoneheart]

Not necessarily, the protagonist can be much more villainous than the antagonist.

But clearly the opening post meant antagonists as someone to root against.

So you don't bother with the "to me", meaning everyone should draw their own conclusion.

Nice.

"To me." The author. The one who wrote the story. The one who initially envisioned these characters and their paths and their outcomes. The guy who has spoke of Jaime, Theon, and Sandor as "villains" unambiguously. I was bothering with the "to me." You may subscribe to the death of the author school of thought, but I don't. I think GRRM's words can and do have meaning to his own work and if he says they're heroes that's obviously how they're meant to be seen. Does GRRM post on his blog about saving lions or roses?

[The Wolves]

Lady Stoneheart is awesome and she's fighting the good fight which is hanging Freys and Lannisters left and right, her cause is just, so just leave her be.

[Wouter]

You said that was reported by the Polish translator of an early release Brienne chapter where she is almost executed? That sounds like you're describing Brienne VIII from A Feast for Crows. I just gave that chapter a fresh reread, and I didn't catch any reference to that. Do you know if the reference still exists in the Polish translation of Feast? If we're talking about the same chapter, I imagine that he removed it from the final draft for a reason.

It was a draft version. Like we saw with some of the original preview chapters released for Dance of Dragons (I remember there used to be a Dany pit fighter chapter that came way, way earlier in her story than in the final, published version), Martin revised things. Apparently some translators got early versions of chapters so they could get a headstart on the translation. The final version in the Polish book is presumably inline with what was published in English.

Now, Martin removed those references. You can take from that that he changed his mind on the issue (in that version, Pod was spared; another notable difference). However, another reasoning is that he wanted to emphasise the vengeful and borderline villainous side of Stoneheart while keeping the part of her that still cares about her children, hidden.

[Lointain]

Starks becoming the antagonists?

I blame the fishy Tully genes.

[Pod The Rod]

It was a draft version. Like we saw with some of the original preview chapters released for Dance of Dragons (I remember there used to be a Dany pit fighter chapter that came way, way earlier in her story than in the final, published version), Martin revised things. Apparently some translators got early versions of chapters so they could get a headstart on the translation. The final version in the Polish book is presumably inline with what was published in English.

Now, Martin removed those references. You can take from that that he changed his mind on the issue (in that version, Pod was spared; another notable difference). However, another reasoning is that he wanted to emphasise the vengeful and borderline villainous side of Stoneheart while keeping the part of her that still cares about her children, hidden.

The "execution" of Brienne, Pod, and Hyle is the only thing ever cited when it comes to LS being totally evil, and I never understand it. Never.

What part of "enemy combatants" do you people not understand?

[Wouter]

The "execution" of Brienne, Pod, and Hyle is the only thing ever cited when it comes to LS being totally evil, and I never understand it. Never.

What part of "enemy combatants" do you people not understand?

Well, Pod is very young and as such borderline as a combatant, even though we know he has killed in combat. In the original version of the chapter, LS spares him, but apparently Martin felt that didn't quite work. As someone mentioned earlier, Robb didn't have 13-year old Lannister combatants executed and didn't appreciate Karstark executing them anyway.

There's also the fact that Brienne is a POV and a relatively loved character, which always makes people sympathise to a higher degree than if they would look from outside. Almost nobody cares for those random outlaws that were executed on Jaime's orders, because they didn't get a story.

Many people would also feel that the trial of Brienne was a farce, allthough by Westerosi standards she got a generous chance to plead her case. They may not consider the weight of the evidence against her, because we know she is (mostly) innocent of the charges and falling in love with Jaime by itself does not warrant execution.

I hope we will see another side of Lady Stoneheart in TWOW.

[Fisch]

Last me ask this question then, to anyone.

For any of the Stark kids that you currently like, is there anything that they could do, in character, that would lead you to start rooting against them?

If Arya went all the way with her training and became an amoral assassin serving a death cult.

If Bran abused his powers to, say, permanently take over Hodor's body, or somehow rape Meera, or for ruthless conquest.

If Jon became as cold and ruthless as a Roose or Tywin.

If Rickon became a savage.

If Sansa became another Littlefinger, a merciless ambition constantly scheming, betraying, and angling for personal advancement and nothing else. Hell, if she were so much as willingly complicit in Sweetrobin's murder.

Of all of these, Sansa's seems the most likely, "most" being relative here.

The guy who has spoke of Jaime, Theon, and Sandor as "villains" unambiguously.

Links? (I believe you, I've just never seen these interviews).