What if Jon Snow chose to be Jon Stark

[TheYellowAppleFossoway]

How would the politics and events be altered if Jon Snow would have taken Stannis up on the offer to be legitimized? Would Northern lords accept him? Would a horrible Renly-esque precedent be set for the Night's Watch? How would the return of Rickon play out with Jon?

I think this is an interesting situation that feasibly could have occurred and would have significantly changed the game in the north. What do you guys think would/could have happened if Jon Snow would have taken the knee and rose as Jon Stark?

[ThePosterThatWasPromised]

Many other northern lords would have rallied to them and they would've ousted the Boltons in minutes. A few houses probably might've been puritans and been pissed about Jon quitting the watch, I think far more (especially if the northern conspiracy is real), would rally to him.

I really think Stan the man would have posed a good ass threat to win the throne.

[DJE]

I think the North would have rallied to Stannis and Lord Stark, and they would be on their way south to claim the Iron Thorne for Stannis

[TeethGrinder]

He would have united some Northern Lords (maybe not all, he'd still be a bastard to a lot of people given Stannis' somewhat limited authority) around Stannis until Rickon showed up and then he would denounce either the name or at least his claim to The North/Winterfell. Slynt would try and kill him as LC, but I'd imagine he'd fail and Stannis would take him out if he had to.

[RickonKITN]

Don't think it's a 'what if' myself personally. Jon's a Stark, regardless of his father. I don't see him having any interest in anything to do with house targaryen. he was raised a stark, and his battle is at the wall - to save the world, not pursue a throne.

[the storm king returns]

Then Jon Stark would have NO honour, which is why he chose to be a snow and keep what is really important to the Starks

[Scorpion92]

He will become Jon Stark,I believe. It is just his stabbing was an important plot tool in order for Jon to undergo "spiritual journey". He will learn who he really is and what house Stark is really about and embrace his mother's house words. He will become new King of Winter.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Doesn't matter, he never would have done it. It goes against everything that ever happened to him in his life. His whole life prepared him to turn down Stannis. I know that's not the point of the question but Jon was destined to turn down Stannis. It would have been completely out of character for Jon to accept Stannis and even if Stannis would have made Jon a Stark without asking him Jon would have stayed in the watch giving up his lands and titles. It would have made things really confusing with Rickon shows up with a better claim (I don't think Bran will ever be seen again south of the wall.)

If he accepted that would have gone against the values of house Stark. By choosing to be a Stark he would become less of a Stark in spirit.

And Jon will stay in the watch until his death. Which is now. Mel will reanimate him and unlike other people reanimated by Blood or Fire Magic (Ser Gregor, Stoneheart, King Maegor, Khal Drogo, Lord Beric) Jon will be whole as his soul/spirit/essence has been harbored inside Ghost. His technical death (and that fact that apparently no one wants him around any more will release him from his vows.

[TimJames]

If Jon Snow accepts Stannis's offer, he'll leave the Night's Watch and marry Val. Bowen Marsh and his pals will probably try to assassinate Jon Snow as he leaves out of the belief that he's a deserter ("for the watch!").

Assuming Jon Stark lives (in which case Bowen Marsh will be executed), the northern Lords will rally behind him, and he'll probably take back Sigorn Thenn will be installed as lord of Karhold due to his marriage to Alys Karstark. Ramsay Bolton will absolutely die, either being beheaded by Jon Stark or burned at the stake by Stannis.

I'm not sure how Jon Stark will react when he rides to Winterfell to rescue Arya and instead finds Jeyne Poole. He might be depressed to learn that his sister really is dead, or he might be relieved to learn that his sister was not raped/flayed by Ramsay Bolton.

Assuming Theon Greyjoy is allowed to join the Night's Watch instead of being executed, he might tell Jon Snow that his brothers are still alive. Whether Jon Stark actually believes Theon is anyone's guess.

With Northern Lords in tow, Jon Stark and Stannis will ride south to take the Iron Throne in the latter's name. The Neck won't be a problem, as the Craggomen are sworn to The Lord of Winterfell. The Twins will be smashed to bits, and if he isn't killed in fighting than Walder Frey will get beheaded. Once the Freys are scattered, the other Riverland lords should rally behind Stannis the Avenger.

Next Stannis could either go West for Casterly Rock, South for Highgarden, or East for Kings Landing. Knowing a Stannis he will probably want to take the last option.

The city used up their wildfire on the last battle, so their chances aren't so great. The faith militant will likely oppose Stannis purely because of of the Red Priestess, so he'll need to either renounce the Red God (if Loras kills Melisandre, than he just might be willing to do this) or disband the Faith Militant after winning the battle (either way it would be amusing to see Melisandre and the High Sparrow get in a theological debate).

If Stannis takes the city, there probably won't be a second sack of kings landing because when he defeated King Mance Ryder he castrated three of his men for raping wildling women. I also don't think he'll burn the Septon and the Great Sept, as he refused to sacrifice nonbelievers during his winter march in Canon.

Cersei and Lancel will both be burned alive as revenge for their role in Robert's murder. Tommen will be sent to the wall and renamed Waters, and Margaery will be held as a prisoner to ensure Highgarden bends the knee. If Selsye is dead by this point, Margaery might actually get to marry a king (third time's the charm!).

Once that is taken care of, Stannis will have problems to fix in his new kingdom. He'll need to split his army in half (one half to take The Westerlands, the other to repel Ageon Targaryen's landing invasion), and it is likely that Jon Stark will command one and Stannis Baratheon will command the other.

If Ageon escapes, he'll flee to Pentos. If he is captured in battle, he'll get sent to The Wall and might get elected as Lord Commander. If he dies, he dies.

Once The Westerlands are under control, Stannis will launch an assault on the Iron Islands. He succeeded once before, so he can do it again. Eurion will probably be executed, and Asha installed as puppet Lady Paramount.

From there, Stannis can rebuild the economy so as to repay his Braavos debts. He will also swing up north again to defeat The Others. As his Obsidian Armed forces push them back to the Lands of Always Winter, the Lands-Beyond-The-Wall will be absorbed into the Seven Kingdoms and another wall might be built to defend that.

Finally, Stannis will need to defend his United Westros against Daenarys. This could go either way.

If Dtannis defeats Daenarys, than history will remember him as the greatest king ever. He'll get a cool nickname like "Stonewall Stannis".

After Jon Stark's Son (or Rickon if he is found) comes of age, Jon Stark will abdicate and return to The Wall to renew his Night's Watch Oath and live out the rest of his days at his post.

[Buried Treasure]

Many of the Northern lords would not rally around Jon Stark as he cannot free hostages just by virtue of his name, and the hostages are the reason most of the Houses bent unwilling knees to the Iron Throne.

He would get some supportive messages via raven to the Wall from the few houses without imprisoned kin they cared about keeping alive. But the untapped strength is the Mountain Clans and we are told even Starks have to go visit them to win their support - Jon's advice to Stannis was based on how Ned Stark treated the clans.

Maybe the difference is that whilst Jon went off to rally a northern army (and I presume take Deepwood Motte s he advised Stannis) Stannis would keep his Southron army at the Wall a while longer.

[David Selig]

He would have died long ago. No Northerner would follow a bastard who got out of the NW vow (considered super binding and holy) by claiming that the Old Gods don't exist and then burned the Winterfell weirwood.

[Nerevanin]

I think that practically all of the north lords would immediately pledge their allegiance to Jon. He is (at least they think so) a son of their beloved Ned, most of them probably met him before so they knew him. With Stannis, Melisandre and the wildlings backing Jon, the Boltons wouldn't stand a chance. With the North conquered, they could go south just like Robb did. Or Jon could go south and Stannis could move superquickly to Dragonstone and Storm's End before it was captured by Loras and attack from there, so the Lannisters+the Tyrells would face two fronts in one time.

But then there are a few questions: What would do Dorne? Doran hates the Lannisters but would he support Stannis? What would do Littlefinger? If Jon had become the Stark in Winterfell, his dream of Sansa ruling the North would have fallen to dust. What would Euron do?

[Buried Treasure]

I think that practically all of the north lords would immediately pledge their allegiance to Jon. He is (at least they think so) a son of their beloved Ned, most of them probably met him before so they knew him. With Stannis, Melisandre and the wildlings backing Jon, the Boltons wouldn't stand a chance. With the North conquered, they could go south just like Robb di.

You are not the first person in this thread to suggest this, but you aren't addressing the issue of the hostages. Why would Manderly pledge allegiance to Jon if it meant his other son getting killed. Why would any of the families who had relatives captured at the RW?

It's not even certain that, if Robb had somehow dived into the river and escaped the Twins, the Houses would have continued to follow him rather than unhappily surrender to the IT. The northerners love Robb, but not necessarily more than they love their own kin.

[Julia H.]

Tormund's wildlings would have died beyond the Wall.

Slynt would have become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

To bring up yet another aspect: Jon Stark, legitimized heir of Robb Stark, the King-in-the-North, need not be vassal to anyone as a price of being legitimate; but Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, who was made a Stark by Stannis, would be Stannis Baratheon's sworn vassal. That distinction may not seem important at the moment, but there could be a situation in the future where it might matter.

[Nerevanin]

You are not the first person in this thread to suggest this, but you aren't addressing the issue of the hostages. Why would Manderly pledge allegiance to Jon if it meant his other son getting killed. Why would any of the families who had relatives captured at the RW?

It's not even certain that, if Robb had somehow dived into the river and escaped the Twins, the Houses would have continued to follow him rather than unhappily surrender to the IT. The northerners love Robb, but not necessarily more than they love their own kin.

I admit that I totally forgot about the hostages. Then I think that still many lords would follow Jon but probably not as many. It would depend on how much the lords want revenge and if they believe that the hostages are still alive. To me it always felt that one of the reason why the North lords remained quite passive after the Red Wedding was that they didn't have a leader. Notice how Alysanne Mormont joined Stannis. It is understandable why the other lords didn't - they don't know him. But a real Stark, that's a different story.

[David Selig]

I think that practically all of the north lords would immediately pledge their allegiance to Jon. He is (at least they think so) a son of their beloved Ned, most of them probably met him before so they knew him.

They would immediately pledged fealty to a guy who claimed the Old Gods aren't real and used that as an excuse to break the holiest oath the North has?

[bb1180]

They would immediately pledged fealty to a guy who claimed the Old Gods aren't real and used that as an excuse to break the holiest oath the North has?

I think they probably would've found an excuse to turn a blind eye to the breaking of the NW vows. The easiest argument would be to say that, since the NW plays no role in the politics and wars of the realm, then the realm should play no role in the internal politics of the NW. If Jon broke his vows, that's between he and the NW itself. This would have been atypical, yes, given that we know the North and, indeed, the rest of the realm, would execute oathbreakers from the Wall. But if you're a northern lord looking for a loophole, that's one argument you could make.

But the affront to their religion? That would've been the deal breaker, I agree. No amount of political weaseling could've gotten around that one.

[Buried Treasure]

I admit that I totally forgot about the hostages. Then I think that still many lords would follow Jon but probably not as many. It would depend on how much the lords want revenge and if they believe that the hostages are still alive. To me it always felt that one of the reason why the North lords remained quite passive after the Red Wedding was that they didn't have a leader. Notice how Alysanne Mormont joined Stannis. It is understandable why the other lords didn't - they don't know him. But a real Stark, that's a different story.

I see it rather the opposite way round, lack of leader isn't the problem so much as people who want to be followers not being able to. The north does not care for Stannis but those that are free to act are taking him as leader because their anti-Lannister causes align. Maybe a more desirable leader gets them to act sooner but given distances maybe not - if Lord Jon went to the mountains to win the clans he wouldn't reach Deepwood Motte much earlier than Stannis did.

Stannis is already being followed by clansmen (no hostages), Mormonts (no hostages), Umbers (whom we suspect are colluding with the Umbers that went over to Bolton to keep the Greatjon alive). Manderly (hostage freed) and Glover (no RW hostages) have secretly told Davos they will follow Stannis.

At Winterfell it seems the only person other than Manderly that doesn't have family held hostage is Lady Dustin, who is kin to Bolton.

Maybe Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover would have revealed themselves for a more preferable Stark leader but I suspect that they are waiting at the Reed-Frey border for when the hostages get moved KL so they can free them and free their countrymen to act.

[Nerevanin]

They would immediately pledged fealty to a guy who claimed the Old Gods aren't real and used that as an excuse to break the holiest oath the North has?

I suppose that somehow there is a way to leave the Night's Watch peacefully because I think that if there wasn't one, the oh so honorable and just Stannis wouldn't even suggest it, even if he was in a desperate situation.

I assume that Jon might be eventually able to persuade Stannis to let the people worship whichever gods they desire. I know that Stannis isn't fond of this thought when Jon points it out but I guess that in the end he would agree.

[Buried Treasure]

I suppose that somehow there is a way to leave the Night's Watch peacefully because I think that if there wasn't one, the oh so honorable and just Stannis wouldn't even suggest it, even if he was in a desperate situation.

Stannis has a pragmatic streak, he'll do the expedient thing, and be more bothered if it that is unlawful or undutiful than dishonorable. He converted to a new religion although he confessed to Davos (?) that he doesn't believe in any gods - that is not an action an honourable man would take, but he sees it as helpful in his duty to take the throne.

Besides, it is not Stannis' honour but Jon's honour that would be hurt that by Jon leaving the Watch. Stannis thinks other people's honour is less important than their duty as his subjects to him as kingood. To his understanding his subjects include the NWs, although Jon later comes to the conclusion the NW does not serve the Iron Throne and of course pre-conquest it was not considered to serve any of the thrones.