Will Sansa be Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken ?

[GarthGreenhand]

I have a theory that Sansa is going to off herself - probably after she does something drastic like killing Ramsay or Roose. And the dramatic irony will be that the cavalry will be right around the corner to liberate her.

I love Sansa in both the books and the show - I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see a happy ending for her here. And now that we're in "beyond the books" territory, I'm worried for her safety.

[Pies are coming]

I could see that happening. She could smuggle Theon out and then Theon could either ride to the Wall to meet Jon or maybe bump into Stannis and ask for help.

That would be an irony regarding the books. Instead of Jeyne begging Theon to get her out, Sansa begs Theon to get himself out

[Lord Damian]

Much to the dissapointment of the actress, I do not see a happy ending for Sansa but there is a lot of chatter and hints from the cast that whatever she goes through this season, she will do something epic and inspiring this season, perhaps near the end.

As for this episode, we knew this day would come. If it was not Littlefinger, some random ruffian or whatever, pretty maidens who have no real home or anyone to trust to protect them either become Septas or they marry, get bedded and start making little babies. It seems, that it is time for Sansa but she is supposed to have an agenda. We dread this episode because of the spoilers that have stated it is happening and we remember her as the 13 year old actress in season 1. How her and Arya grew up though. All things must come to an end though.

[SnowCastle]

I could see that happening. She could smuggle Theon out and then Theon could either ride to the Wall to meet Jon or maybe bump into Stannis and ask for help.

Has anyone else had the idea that she'll flee to the Wall and take Alys' place?

[Pies are coming]

Has anyone else had the idea that she'll flee to the Wall and take Alys' place?

That depends on Jon returning with an army of wildlings, the Night's Watch opening the gates for him and Sansa missing Stannis army which is coming through the same road

[Colonel Green]

Has anyone else had the idea that she'll flee to the Wall and take Alys' place?

With the way Jon's plot has been restructured, there's no room for that plot.

[Mithras]

Not likely, the opposite seems to be the case..

Yes, she is more likely to be bowed, bent and broken.

[TheCasualObserver]

I can't help but post.

I would argue that this situation is clearly not the same as Dany's wedding night with Drogo in Season 1 for a couple of reasons, even if we acknowledge that that was traumatic for everybody who saw it. As with anything which might be offensive, the context of a scene has to be considered. In Dany's case, the wedding night served two purposes. First and foremost, it enabled her to escape the clutches of her brother so she could grow and learn to use her sexuality to reach out to Drogo and create something approaching equality (though still far from it) in a loving marriage. Crucially, it also taught her to sympathize with those who have no control of their bodies - the beginning of her abhorrence of slavery. Right off the bat we have three major character traits stemming from this scene which are vital to Dany's character for growth and change from the timid sister we meet in episode one to the vengeful Queen we know in season 5.

Secondly this scene set the tone for the show - as uncomfortable as it was to watch, experiencing the violent and cruel world of game of thrones with it's archaic rules and unfair and intolerant society was a watershed moment for both readers of the books and watchers of the show. Even as we were repulsed we were also being informed about important issues in this fictional world we'd been thrown into. The only difference between the book and the show was that on their wedding night Drogo is much rougher than his literary counterpart - a worrying sign of things to come in the adaption.

Fast forward to Sansa's recently released "Alayne" chapter. Mentioned as being controversial by some, the chapter essentially highlights how Sansa is growing as a character when she is pitted against snobbish and unpleasant Knight Harry the Heir. Crucially in this scene, Sansa is actually the sexual aggressor, charming, cajoling and teasing an otherwise disinterested Harry in the first steps towards manipulation, all whilst remaining feminine and at heart a kind person. It didn't make me uncomfortable to read about a character I'd seen grow up into her sexuality: I practically cheered because after four books of misery, the push back has begun. And the clever way GRRM did this was to hide Sansa behind Alayne. Without her hereditary rights, Sansa is left as a woman with almost no status and therefore (strictly in the confines of Westeros of course) almost no worth. So we finally see Sansa using more than just her pouty face - she instead relies on her charm and charisma and it brought a big old smile to my face. Sansa's brutal experiences under Joffrey's thumb and beside Littlefinger have taught her to put aside her romanticism but not her good nature, to manipulate those around with her wits as well as her beauty. That is compelling character development.

And then we have this mess in the show. Not only is Sansa still Sansa, she is once again under threat, almost as if the writers genuinely cannot find her something else to do. The potential rape in the next episode cannot be defended in the way Dany's can because the context is not there to support it. I thought the purpose of Sansa's story in season 4 was to finally start playing the game, and she already has ample reason to want the Bolton's dead, so what possible character development can come from a sexual assault? Handled poorly it's the kind of storyline which brings to mind the video nasties of the seventies and eighties like I spit on your grave and The Last house on the Left, which were pretty unambiguously exploitative. As if to add insult to injury, whole threads have been written about why LF's plan doesn't make sense and even if it does it, benefits LF not Sansa. Without compelling reasons to place herself in harms way, Sansa's arc is once again painting her as a victim, not a character with agency and it seems incredibly poorly judged on D and D's part, especially since her filling in for Jeyne Poole makes this Theon's story, not Sansa's.

Add to that the fact that actress Sophie Turner turned eighteen before filming began and D and D's discussion that they were planning this plotline from season 2 onward and a rather unpleasant picture falls into place. When the abuse inflicted on a main character depends upon the age of the actress playing her (and seemingly nothing else) you've reached the point of shameless exploitation. It's a criticism that's been thrown at GOT with it's sexsposition scenes and it's gory violence before, but until now (with the possible exception of Ros' story arc) I've always been able to defend it. No more.

[abandonship]

And then we have this mess in the show. Not only is Sansa still Sansa, she is once again under threat, almost as if the writers genuinely cannot find her something else to do. The potential rape in the next episode cannot be defended in the way Dany's can because the context is not there to support it.

I still refuse to believe that Sansa is going to marry Ramsay and even worse, undergo the bedding ceremony. It just feels like too much, especially for Sansa's character, who was already being tortured and traumatized by Joffery and Ramsay is much worse. I would like Sansa to be a major player, even if I am not her biggest fan. But I just dont see how that would help her, I think that such an experience would actually do the opposite.

[Benjaario Starkharis]

I still refuse to believe that Sansa is going to marry Ramsay and even worse, undergo the bedding ceremony. It just feels like too much, especially for Sansa's character, who was already being tortured and traumatized by Joffery and Ramsay is much worse. I would like Sansa to be a major player, even if I am not her biggest fan. But I just dont see how that would help her, I think that such an experience would actually do the opposite.

Next episode she's marrying Ramsay and getting raped by him while Theon is forced to watch. It's all but confirmed. Just a heads up if you want to skip the episode.

[abandonship]

Next episode she's marrying Ramsay and getting raped by him while Theon is forced to watch. It's all but confirmed. Just a heads up if you want to skip the episode.

I'm not going to watch this one then. Thanks for the heads up.

[Lord Damian]

I can't help but post.

I would argue that this situation is clearly not the same as Dany's wedding night with Drogo in Season 1 for a couple of reasons, even if we acknowledge that that was traumatic for everybody who saw it. As with anything which might be offensive, the context of a scene has to be considered. In Dany's case, the wedding night served two purposes. First and foremost, it enabled her to escape the clutches of her brother so she could grow and learn to use her sexuality to reach out to Drogo and create something approaching equality (though still far from it) in a loving marriage. Crucially, it also taught her to sympathize with those who have no control of their bodies - the beginning of her abhorrence of slavery. Right off the bat we have three major character traits stemming from this scene which are vital to Dany's character for growth and change from the timid sister we meet in episode one to the vengeful Queen we know in season 5.

Secondly this scene set the tone for the show - as uncomfortable as it was to watch, experiencing the violent and cruel world of game of thrones with it's archaic rules and unfair and intolerant society was a watershed moment for both readers of the books and watchers of the show. Even as we were repulsed we were also being informed about important issues in this fictional world we'd been thrown into. The only difference between the book and the show was that on their wedding night Drogo is much rougher than his literary counterpart - a worrying sign of things to come in the adaption.

Fast forward to Sansa's recently released "Alayne" chapter. Mentioned as being controversial by some, the chapter essentially highlights how Sansa is growing as a character when she is pitted against snobbish and unpleasant Knight Harry the Heir. Crucially in this scene, Sansa is actually the sexual aggressor, charming, cajoling and teasing an otherwise disinterested Harry in the first steps towards manipulation, all whilst remaining feminine and at heart a kind person. It didn't make me uncomfortable to read about a character I'd seen grow up into her sexuality: I practically cheered because after four books of misery, the push back has begun. And the clever way GRRM did this was to hide Sansa behind Alayne. Without her hereditary rights, Sansa is left as a woman with almost no status and therefore (strictly in the confines of Westeros of course) almost no worth. So we finally see Sansa using more than just her pouty face - she instead relies on her charm and charisma and it brought a big old smile to my face. Sansa's brutal experiences under Joffrey's thumb and beside Littlefinger have taught her to put aside her romanticism but not her good nature, to manipulate those around with her wits as well as her beauty. That is compelling character development.

And then we have this mess in the show. Not only is Sansa still Sansa, she is once again under threat, almost as if the writers genuinely cannot find her something else to do. The potential rape in the next episode cannot be defended in the way Dany's can because the context is not there to support it. I thought the purpose of Sansa's story in season 4 was to finally start playing the game, and she already has ample reason to want the Bolton's dead, so what possible character development can come from a sexual assault? Handled poorly it's the kind of storyline which brings to mind the video nasties of the seventies and eighties like I spit on your grave and The Last house on the Left, which were pretty unambiguously exploitative. As if to add insult to injury, whole threads have been written about why LF's plan doesn't make sense and even if it does it, benefits LF not Sansa. Without compelling reasons to place herself in harms way, Sansa's arc is once again painting her as a victim, not a character with agency and it seems incredibly poorly judged on D and D's part, especially since her filling in for Jeyne Poole makes this Theon's story, not Sansa's.

Add to that the fact that actress Sophie Turner turned eighteen before filming began and D and D's discussion that they were planning this plotline from season 2 onward and a rather unpleasant picture falls into place. When the abuse inflicted on a main character depends upon the age of the actress playing her (and seemingly nothing else) you've reached the point of shameless exploitation. It's a criticism that's been thrown at GOT with it's sexsposition scenes and it's gory violence before, but until now (with the possible exception of Ros' story arc) I've always been able to defend it. No more.

You have stated my concern for the actress and the character she plays far better than I have. Well done

[Lord Damian]

I still refuse to believe that Sansa is going to marry Ramsay and even worse, undergo the bedding ceremony. It just feels like too much, especially for Sansa's character, who was already being tortured and traumatized by Joffery and Ramsay is much worse. I would like Sansa to be a major player, even if I am not her biggest fan. But I just dont see how that would help her, I think that such an experience would actually do the opposite.

I think the writters are going to use the bedding experience as the final "trigger" turning her into "Darth Sansa". She loses her last shred of innocense. "kill the girl" and let the woman be born.

[MadMouse@theTOJ]

When I started this thread I had a glimmer of hope that Ding&Dong were going to somehow make Sansa a strong player, but I realized two days later that they were just looking for a sacrificial virgin. I am so pissed at how they ruined a storyline that had so much potential. They could have played out the Winterfell story in half a dozen ways that would be amazing.

I am very demoralized by how much they have ruined this and I am also skipping the next episode, just like I skipped all the Theon torture episodes.

[MMOWarrior]

Hearing Ramsay say "The North Remembers" during the dinner scene worries me a bit. Either he was just saying that because of whatever reason, or the Bolton's are aware of what Sansa is aware of: the supposed Stark loyalists and their attempts to save her if need be.

I don't know, a part of me really doesn't want her to be saved. I want to see her stand her own against the Bolton's and eventually be able to manipulate Ramsay. She already rejected Brienne's help once, so I wouldn't be surprised if she rejected her again. The only way I can see her wanting to escape is if she is too terrified of her situation and/or Ramsay breaks her. So far, he seems to be pretty soft towards her. I imagine that's somewhat of an act, though. I guess we'll see.

I haven't seen it mentioned... but that Inn Keeper Brienne spoke with was wearing a very Freyish cap... just sayin...

[Boudica]

Has anyone else had the idea that she'll flee to the Wall and take Alys' place?

I ve had a feeling that she might take on a bit of Alys Karstark's role. If only the part where she arrives at the wall. I am guessing the letter that Jon send to the Boltons will come up in this episode perhaps, and that would inform Sansa that Jon is the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. If she gets married in episode 6 she could escape in episode 7 or 8 and arrive at the wall in episode 9. It also depends on if Brienne helps her to escape. Brienne would rather perhaps take her to the wall then to Stannis. On the other hand perhaps Stannis and Brienne is suppose meet.

[Boudica]

Sansa grew up with the idea of consummating her marriage on her wedding night. Just because the marriage will be consummated does not mean it going to be rape. When Sansa got married to Tyrion she was actually the one who started undress herself first, that is because she really understands her duty as a highborn lady. Obviously bedding Ramsey is not going to be pleasant, but she understands it is her duty she might perhaps just want to get it over and done with. After Roose's talk with Ramsey he might be on better behavior, for a while at least.

[Mish Windage]

I haven't seen it mentioned... but that Inn Keeper Brienne spoke with was wearing a very Freyish cap... just sayin...

Agree with the sentiment. Also, everyone Pod squires for gets sentenced to death. Everyone Brienne tries to serve, gets killed off or maimed or something. Probably Sansa's smart move is not getting involved with them.

Ramsey has made me suspicious of everything in his area of influence.

[Lord Damian]

Sansa grew up with the idea of consummating her marriage on her wedding night. Just because the marriage will be consummated does not mean it going to be rape. When Sansa got married to Tyrion she was actually the one who started undress herself first, that is because she really understands her duty as a highborn lady. Obviously bedding Ramsey is not going to be pleasant, but she understands it is her duty she might perhaps just want to get it over and done with. After Roose's talk with Ramsey he might be on better behavior, for a while at least.

we are not disagree with you but the things we are unpleasant about is that Sansa is continously placed in awful situations and we all know what Ramsay is but Sansa only has maybe the foggiest clue thusfar. However, it is the writters that have admittedly been drooling over this in particular storyline for 4 years, since she was 14 about to turn 15 in real life of having this thing happen when she turned atleast 18 years old to legally do so (Sophie Turner). The Storyline is soooooo unnecessary and she is the only main character to have her story sooo far derailed it seems it is specifically for a sexposition purpose.

[TheCasualObserver]

Sansa grew up with the idea of consummating her marriage on her wedding night. Just because the marriage will be consummated does not mean it going to be rape. When Sansa got married to Tyrion she was actually the one who started undress herself first, that is because she really understands her duty as a highborn lady. Obviously bedding Ramsey is not going to be pleasant, but she understands it is her duty she might perhaps just want to get it over and done with. After Roose's talk with Ramsey he might be on better behavior, for a while at least.

I have to disagree. Even if by the social mores of Westeros it wouldn't be rape, it certainly is to my mind - consent isn't a difficult thing to work out.

But more importantly, Sansa has spent her whole childhood being told that she needs to be wedded and bedded; the point of her arc is to make her a manipulator and political schemer, not the pliant and submissive wife she would have been prior to the events of the series. Accepting this marriage limits her agency and thus, detracts from her character.