The show isn’t diverting from the books that much after all.

[The Kind Nihilist]

This, too. The big moment. Shock, it's all about shocking the audience. And some of the changes to shock are so offensive, like the sept scene and the Winterfell storyline. There was a fine balance to these stories, there was a reason he told them the way he did, but they don't respect that. They just don't get it, and it shows.

This is exactly what's wrong with the show. Instead of feeling sympathy, I just thought, good, she won't be around to wreck the story anymore. She was cardboard that got in the way of seeing Catelyn and Robb. And now I can't even pretend the others are not cardboard. They wrecked the whole story (maybe Talisa was the Borg Queen).

Oh come on! Even you have to admit that the RW chapter on the books lacked the proper impact... Nothing that the stabbing of an unborn foetus couldn't fix, as D&D skillfully proved. Totally worth the butchering of Robb's storyline and the introduction of an absurdly anachronistic character, IMHO...

[The Kind Nihilist]

So why don't you just read them in chronological order? You are not forced to stick to the book order and you can easily find something online with all the work done for you.

When Dance first came out I had no patience and read it immediately but for any rereads I combine them, I have also done character rereads. I would also recommend anyone new to the series to think about reading them as a mega-book.

Someone proposed this:

http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons

I'll definitely give it a try next time I go for a read.

[Yield.]

Book readers don't have a better understanding of the TV characters by default. We have a richer understanding of the world and history, and we have alternate data points to draw on when we want to talk about it, but when it comes down to it, the show, like any piece of art (high or low) must stand on on its own merits. The show is an adaptation. It's been a fairly faithful adaptation, in my view, but there have been some changes, many of which you have pointed out, and those things mean that Tyrion is a slightly different character. He's much more charming and spontaneous than book Tyrion (who I love in a different way.) We don't know more about this character by having read the books. We know him from what we see in the show. Show Tyrion _would_ decide to go see Tywin at the last minute. At least to me, it was completely believable, and therefore, not bad writing. I think the big difference between our experiences is that I have been willing to let the show be its own entity since it began.

I did have a moment of resistance. When I first saw promo pictures and learned that the Targaryans wouldn't have violet eyes, and Jaime Lannister would have dirty bronde hair, I freaked out. It took one episode to decide I preferred the realistic look of the show to the fantasy genre style looks of the characters in the books. I've trusted the show to be itself since. And while I haven't liked every change, I've enjoyed the show. Books will always trump TV when it comes to true complexity, as long as they're written well.

The latter is the caveat that sinks if for me.

I am on board with changes like Roz because she fulfills several characters. She is A Star is Born/ Hooker with a heart of gold and foil all in one. Not only does she subvert the trope she adds to the overall plot. A small town tavern worker wanting the riches of KL after having met Tyrion and his like is, while cliched, believable. She's from the North so her wanting to warn Sansa is understandable. As his her confidence in a fellow whore. Who would she confess to? Tyrion?

She clearly shows the motivation of major players. Varyr is ever the info hoarder, Littlecreep is ruthless and Joffery is a saddest loony.Her existence shows these clearly and with minimal effort.

That said the blatant disregard for character development and glaring inconsistencies are what bring this show to a juvenile level; worse near incomprehensible.

ETA the correction stupid spelling errors due to quick typing.

[Julia Martell]

Actually, I take it back. If anything, the title of the thread is not bold enough. Come soon, it's the books that will be diverging from the show... and how horrible will that be, to have D&D's perfect creation ruined by a couple more ponderous tomes where GRRM will bore everyone to death with faultless thematic structure and character progression that actually makes sense :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

Nonsense! Brienne is a comedic Stark-stalker motivated by her hatred for Stannis and the Sparrows meta-commentary on the lack of lesbian sex on the story.

Yeah, I agree too, Jamie was getting boring, all character development and no action, the Iron Islands, half of Dorne, the Riverlands and the Vale were just dead weight and all Sansa needed was a new dress and a bit of rape to get that long-coming empowerment. AFFC and ADWD are so dull...

Me too! Nothing gets my juices running like having my favourite fantasy series spoiled by an ill-conceived tv-show!

Oh come on! Even you have to admit that the RW chapter on the books lacked the proper impact... Nothing that the stabbing of an unborn foetus couldn't fix, as D&D skillfully proved. Totally worth the butchering of Robb's storyline and the introduction of an absurdly anachronistic character, IMHO...

You, my friend, give me life.

All the way back to the original question of the thread now.... I’m sorry, but I don;t understand how anyone can make this argument. Not without an extremely liberal definition of the phrase "not diverging” in any case. Even when the same stuff happens it’s almost always for entirely different reasons.

I mean, the plot line that’s probably most faith is, what, Arya in Braavos? Halfway through the season it’s hardly gotten any screen time and given some of the show runners comments about that arc... we’ll see.

After that, what’s most faithful? The Wall? Jon’s leftover aSoS material was ridiculously rushed and they seem mostly concern with Olly reaction shots and foreshadowing everything. And they chucked Sam’s arc out the window entirely. And don’t get me started on Meli-sans-bra. Jon’s character arc at least bears a passing resemblance to aDwD, but they removed any kind of complexity from the situation. It’s all about him being reasonable and everyone else being racist or something.

And then King’s Landing is probably next in terms of faithfulness, where instead of having Cersei slow decent into absolute folly, you have Carol the relatable, struggling tiger mom being really quite good at this managing people thing, unless the writers need her to do something stupid, and then she does for no real reason. I will not mention Marg and the Faith Taliban because it upsets me too much.

And I guess Dany’s arc resembles the canon. She in the proper geographical location and she’s trying to rule it. But like, instead of doing her best and making compromises and mistakes she’s an absolutely terrifying tyrant and I’m honestly not sure if I’m actually suppose to be rooting for her or what. I mean, I assume I’m not suppose to be rooting for the slavers so....

And then the rest of the plot lines are more or less invented out of wholecloth.

[Mark Antony]

Oh come on! Even you have to admit that the RW chapter on the books lacked the proper impact... Nothing that the stabbing of an unborn foetus couldn't fix, as D&D skillfully proved. Totally worth the butchering of Robb's storyline and the introduction of an absurdly anachronistic character, IMHO...

:lol: perfect

[The Eunuch]

So, is it just me, or isn’t the show diverting from the books after all. I mean, you can see differences from the show and the book from the start, and I really felt for the first 2/3 episodes of season 5 that the show was really diverting from the books. But if I look at it now, nothing is really changing.

Yes, we have some changes like no Uncat, Barristan is dead, no (f)Aegon and JonCon, Arianne and so on. But if you accept that their storylines won’t change the outcome of the books, nothing really changes. I mean, Dany is marrying hizdar. Tyrion seems to join forces with a Targ and fulfills the same role (whether Aegon is fake or not, as far as we know he is a Targ). The pale mare is gone, but Jorah will bring grayscale. The pink letter might not be likely, but the wildlings will join the NW and Jon will be betrayed most likely. Stannis/Bolton clash will be there. Jaime will (try to) rescue Myrcella instead of Arianne running of with her. Cersei is having trouble with the faith, in a (little) different way, but the outcome seems the same.

At the beginning of the season I felt it was diverting even more from the books, but as the season continues, it seems like it’s actually coming closer to the books. What do you all think?

I couldn't agree more! Great summary.

[Le Cygne]

Oh come on! Even you have to admit that the RW chapter on the books lacked the proper impact... Nothing that the stabbing of an unborn foetus couldn't fix, as D&D skillfully proved. Totally worth the butchering of Robb's storyline and the introduction of an absurdly anachronistic character, IMHO...

And then the straightforward, logical plan for the North lacked the proper impact... So have his sister marry the son of the man who killed him... because the man who killed his father told her to.... totally worth butchering her storyline (and her everything).

They've turned ASOIAF into the Theatre of the Absurd.

[Le Cygne]

As the stomach turns 2: the bowel eruption

Eruption is futile. You will be assimilated.

And I guess Dany’s arc resembles the canon. She in the proper geographical location and she’s trying to rule it. But like, instead of doing her best and making compromises and mistakes she’s an absolutely terrifying tyrant and I’m honestly not sure if I’m actually suppose to be rooting for her or what. I mean, I assume I’m not suppose to be rooting for the slavers so....

She had to be crazy. Darth Sheep has sacrificial virgin covered. Brienne the Brute has badass covered. Carol has the good mom covered. Meli-sans-bra (good one!) has nothing covered.

[LadySoftheart]

Eruption is futile. You will be assimilated.

Rh'llor save me, because I'll need reviving after I expire from laughter! :rofl:

[The Eunuch]

(double post)

[The Eunuch]

So have his sister marry the son of the man who killed him... because the man who killed his father told her to.... totally worth butchering her storyline (and her everything).

They've turned ASOIAF into the Theatre of the Absurd.

What the hell are you talking about? Who is the man who "killed her father"? Littlefinger? How would she know that he betrayed her father? That is absurd.

And if you think that it's absurd for her to marry the man who killed her brother, what about the fact that she was supposed to marry the one who ordered her father's death (Joffrey)? Is it absurd too, or do you complain only when it comes from the show?

[Chebyshov]

And if you think that it's absurd for her to marry the man who killed her brother, what about the fact that she was supposed to marry the one who ordered her father's death (Joffrey)? Is it absurd too, or do you complain only when it comes from the show?

You're equating a situation where she was a prisoner with no autonomy to her current state? Wasn't the whole point of the S4 finale that she finally gained some agency and had the Vale Lords in her pocket, giving her an edge over Littlefinger?

Anyway:

Why Sansa in Winterfell makes no sense for any player involved

Roose Bolton:

• Only holds Winterfell based on Tywin granting him the position of Warden. Getting a letter that says “hey, I have Sansa Stark” (aka fugitive #1) and responding with anything but a raven to King’s Landing alerting them of a possible traitor in the Vale is an insane gamble. We know Roose Bolton is a cautious and calculating man, and we know he only acted for the Red Wedding when he got assurances.

Littlefinger:

• The same person who went to great lengths to sneak Sansa out of the capital is now sending a raven to one of the Lannister’s best allies at this point—which also happens to be the family that loathes the Starks and actively betrayed them—to inform them that Sansa Stark is alive and in the Vale?
• Littlefinger wrote this letter so that Roose would agree to marry Sansa to Ramsay, which does absolutely nothing to strengthen Sansa’s claim in the North. In fact allying with a Bolton is likely to weaken the Northern opinion of her. It would make more sense at this point to declare Sansa Queen in the North, have the Vale rally to her, and ride to Winterfell collecting Northern Lords on the way.
• Littlefinger knows Stannis is coming with his army to Winterfell and expects Stannis to win, and that after winning he’ll name Sansa “Wardeness of the North.” Why wouldn’t he try to get a letter to Stannis in that case, or at the least, why is he trying to put Sansa in what he knows is about to become an active battle zone? He knows Stannis will want the Stark name to strengthen hold in the North and assumes the man will win. There’s no reason Sansa couldn’t just stay in the Vale with the people who will protect her. If Stannis loses, then come up with a plan where maybe Sansa infiltrates the Boltons (which is still stupid).
• Littlefinger gets absolutely nothing in return. He hands his biggest asset to Roose Bolton for an “alliance” (?) that doesn’t actually do anything. It doesn’t strengthen his power in the Vale, and marrying Sansa off to the son of the Warden of the North doesn’t put her (and by extension him) in a position of greater power at all.
• Littlefinger didn’t do simple background research on Ramsay. He literally said the words “I haven’t heard much about you,” yet still arranged this marriage. Perhaps if he asked any Northern Lord on the way to Winterfell (like maybe someone from House Cerwyn when Ramsay just actively flayed the Lord) he could have guessed that this wouldn’t be a good idea. There’s a difference between being a “betting man” and making uninformed stabs in the dark.

Sansa:

• Sansa has no reason to go along with this. She has the Vale Lords on her side, which is rather important in case Littlefinger mistreats her or say…arranges a marriage she doesn’t want. So she has plenty of agency here. She gains nothing from it: daughter-in-law of the Warden of the North is not exactly a politically powerful position. The only way this would make sense is if she’s an assassin being dropped in to slit throats in the night. And while there’s commentary from the costume designer about Sansa wearing a miniature Needle (seriously wtf), this really isn’t Sansa’s skillset. She agreed with absolutely no specifics, and not even knowing the full political situation (like Stannis’s impending attack).
• ETA: This actually may result in her losing credibility in the North; why would she be content to marry the person who betrayed them all? It also ignores the very realistic fact that her maidenhood is of value. She could...idk...marry a great Vale Lord or something and then rally the North instead? Who knows where I came up with such a ludicrous notion though.

Why this is terrible:

It casually smashes the characterizations of three very serious players in one fell swoop because they thought it would be more shocking to put Sansa in this situation. Apparently things like consistency and logic are nothing when you can have gasps.

[The Eunuch]

You're equating a situation where she was a prisoner with no autonomy to her current state? Wasn't the whole point of the S4 finale that she finally gained some agency and had the Vale Lords in her pocket, giving her an edge over Littlefinger?

And you think she's not a prisoner of Littlefinger? Even in the books, she is. She's his pawn, he wants to marry her to someone to gain more power. And in the series he does exactly the same, except that it's not the same person she's marrying.

The point of S4 finale was that she's not as naive as before, now she knows (thanks to the teachings of Cersei, Marg and LF) how to lie and manipulate people. She's a prisoner of Littlefinger, but in the same time she knows that he needs her and probably desire her too, and that she's safe with him (yeah, even surrounded by the Boltons : they can't hurt her because they need LF's support). Now she's in Winterfell to destroy the people who killed her family. Look at her smile when Ramsay learns that Walda is pregnant, she's delighted, and now she has a way to manipulate and destroy Walda, Roose and Ramsay. She's going to cause chaos between them, and we don't know if she will ever marry Ramsay.

[earth127]

the promo for next episode leaves little room for doubt. the marriage is going ahead as to manipulation let us hope so. It would mostly be boring if Sansa sat this one out in favor of other characters.

[Raventhal]

I don't have much problem with not following the book. There was a lot that could have been cut from the story especially with Dance because it didn't really move the plot. I think most of the plot lines could have been covered in an episodes focused fully on them with the finale showing how it all came together with Dany running off her dragon, Vic showing up for the naval battle, Aegon and Jon landing, Varys killing Kevan etc. For example a episode on Brienne showing the aftermath of the war and Jamie cleaning it up the Riverlands. The quick view on the Kings Moot and some of Vic's crazy adventures. Margery and Cersei's ordeal with the Sparrows. But the show has never been focused like that on a single place each episode.

My problem is when things are replaced with other filler and the story leaves so many question marks about why things are happening. Everything we know of Little Fingers says he would never leave a prize like Sansa there with the Bolton's and fucking Ramsey. Better yet appear in front of Cersei who thinks Sansa killed Joff. There is no reason to take that risk when he is essentially hold up in the Vale untouched by war with heirs under his thumb.

[The Kind Nihilist]

You, my friend, give me life.

All the way back to the original question of the thread now.... I’m sorry, but I don;t understand how anyone can make this argument. Not without an extremely liberal definition of the phrase "not diverging” in any case. Even when the same stuff happens it’s almost always for entirely different reasons.

You're entirely right, but what really sold this thread for me was the 'after all' modulation, as it would seem to imply that some mischievous fallacy had at last been proven wrong... Alas, imagine my disappointment when, upon reading it, I realized that, after all, in the whole thread no one had been able to present a compelling argument to substantiate the thread's premise. Now, overcome with the most insidious frustration, I ask myself, how could it be that, given the stellar adaptation D&D are presenting us with, after 20 pages, the best someone could come up with was to quote the opening statement and add a blunt:

I couldn't agree more! Great summary.

Could it be that, after all, one such premise is impossible to justify? No, armoured as I am with my faith in D&D, I refuse to believe that! I shall explore different avenues...

[The Shadow of the Shadew]

I hated Talisa with an abiding passion and was happy when she finally got stabbed, so I can't agree there. Hated the character, hated the actress, hated most of her dialogue, hated everything about her.

But thanks for responding.

Tbh Talisa is more believable than Jeyne Westerling

[Hodor's Dragon]

If the main arcs finish in the same place they would have if there was no AFFC/ADWD, they are filler. <- snip

No.

You need to read the definition of "filler." "Filler" is material that is provided for the express intention of making a piece longer. It typically refers to newspaper or magazine articles that are required to have a certain news length, or to TV shows or other skits that have a specific time limit they don't quite hit.

There is ZERO filler in ASOIAF. Every single word is there for a reason. Nothing is there to make the book longer.

Perhaps you don't like it, or find it boring. That doesn't make it "filler." It is not.

[Facebookless Man]

Cliffs Notes don't get nearly enough credit for their improvement on the entire history of literature, they give you the same story with all the filler cut out.

[The Kind Nihilist]

You're equating a situation where she was a prisoner with no autonomy to her current state? Wasn't the whole point of the S4 finale that she finally gained some agency and had the Vale Lords in her pocket, giving her an edge over Littlefinger?

Anyway:

How dare you!? That sounds so logical... but it would imply that D&D's plotting for the North actually makes no sense at all... almost insinuating they concocted some contrived bullshit just to get Sansa raped... That is preposterous! Oh ye of little faith, the barbarities you can come up with...