Ashara Dayne's child

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

I don't think he is being realistic here - it's merely one of those "what if" scenarios that people torment themselves about. His silence as if let the tragedy happen, so he wonders about the opposite. Plus, you're not completely right - his romance would have been platonic, and therefore safe for Ashara.

The definition of "looked to" as seeking help demands an explanation why Ashara sought a Stark instead of Elia, Rhaegar or her own brother.

Fair point about Barristan maybe not being realistic. But I don't think Ashara's looking to someone for romance would include a guy with whom she could only have a platonic relationship.

That will depend on the timing. Did she do this looking before or after the tourney was completed? If after, Elia and Rhaegar (and possibly Arthur as well) might have been very hard to reach/confide in. If before, that makes it more puzzling. Her older brother may not have even been there. Other good reasons to go to a Stark are if:

1) it was a Stark who was the problem (ex. Brandon seduced her, go to Ned or Lord Rickard);

2) it was a Stark bannerman;

3) it was Robert, so she went to Ned with thinking he would force his friend to make it right;

4) it was Rhaegar--can't go to RhaeRhae or Elia, can't go to Arthur, might not want to risk her father or elder brother getting in trouble with the prince or the king, so find someone else with power.

Then there's always the possibility that she didn't look to a Stark at all, and Barristan has given too much credence to gossip/cover stories.

[Buried Treasure]

Fair point about Barristan maybe not being realistic. But I don't think Ashara's looking to someone for romance would include a guy with whom she could only have a platonic relationship.

Being platonic is kind of Barristan 's point though, he sees that as better. If Ashara had developed a crush on him neither of them would have dishonoured themselves, she would not have gotten pregnant and would not have killed herself for grief.

If the being dishonoured and looking to Stark were two seperate things then it is really strange that it is the looking to Stark he wishes he could have prevented her looking to Stark for help rather than that he could have prevented her being dishonoured; Barristan wouldn't have any better than Stark was at helping her baby not die so that she wouldn't have killed herself. If they are the same thing then if Ashara had looked to Barristan instead of Stark she would not have been dishonoured and would not have killed herself for grief.

That will depend on the timing. Did she do this looking before or after the tourney was completed? If after, Elia and Rhaegar (and possibly Arthur as well) might have been very hard to reach/confide in. If before, that makes it more puzzling. Her older brother may not have even been there. Other good reasons to go to a Stark are if:

1) it was a Stark who was the problem (ex. Brandon seduced her, go to Ned or Lord Rickard);

2) it was a Stark bannerman;

3) it was Robert, so she went to Ned with thinking he would force his friend to make it right;

4) it was Rhaegar--can't go to RhaeRhae or Elia, can't go to Arthur, might not want to risk her father or elder brother getting in trouble with the prince or the king, so find someone else with power.

Then there's always the possibility that she didn't look to a Stark at all, and Barristan has given too much credence to gossip/cover stories.

If Rhaegar, Elia and Arthur were out of Ashara's sphere of contact than Barristan probably would have been too. If we can't put her with or writing too any of those people up to the time of the stillborn girl then Barristan having that knowledge / belief is hard to explain. He's a guard for two of them and sworn brother of the third so him witnessing / overhearing something or being confined in is his best avenue for knowing anything about what Ashara was up to.

Barristan would have had no reason to go to Dorne after Harrenhal and neither did Rhaegar not Elia, so maybe Ashara spent her entire pregnancy at Dragonstone? Barristan could maybe have been posted there at that time, and if the rest of the Daynes never knew of her pregnancy it could maybe help explain why they don't think badly of Ned.

[BalerionTheCat]

Yes, maybe Ned did ask. But equally, perhaps even more so in the context of the situation, perhaps it was Brandon's idea, not Ned's at all.

It would work as well this way. Brandon could have been playing with Ned. And it worked because Ned danced with Ashara. This and Edric saying: "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal"; are much better evidences than saying Brandon didn't care of Ned and Ashara feeling and had sex with her. We have ZERO evidence Brandon behaved that way. Only Brandon's reputation. But IMO, it is far far fetching to translate Brandon reputation into a rude attitude toward his little brother. And Ashara or the stillborn girl not dead in fact, to give some unspecified motive to the Brandon theory, are also, IMO, 100% unsuported assumptions.

Ned as the father requires many assumptions, just different ones that you've unconsciously made.

However, more importantly, it breaks character and goes against many different little data points.

Brandon having an affair with Ashara fits the characters and history of both Ned and Brandon better, fits the observations of Barristan better and fits more common youthful attractions and impulses better.

Why thats the choice GRRM may have made cannot be seen fully yet, until we know more details of the backstory. It could even be simply to strengthen or reinforce the characterisation of the two brothers.

No, I don't see it that way. For me, it fit well with Ned personality, contribute to why this period is so painful to him. While I don't see any value in mixing Brandon in Ashara story.

[Ygrain]

No, I don't see it that way. For me, it fit well with Ned personality, contribute to why this period is so painful to him. While I don't see any value in mixing Brandon in Ashara story.

Ned dishonouring the woman he loved and not making things right by marrying her fits with his personality? Not sparing her a single thought, ever?

I must say I am completely baffled.

[BalerionTheCat]

Ned dishonouring the woman he loved and not making things right by marrying her fits with his personality? Not sparing her a single thought, ever?

I must say I am completely baffled.

Ned could not marry her after Brandon's death, because he had to keep the agreement with Riverrun. BS to me, but it seems the way the Lords do. Between Harrendal and the war, they could have, but maybe they had not the time. Maybe there was a betrothal, but it was not very public. Barristan words may means he was aware. Maybe Rickard was against, maybe he had other plan.

And Ned not thinking about it? First GRRM is hiding something, a lot of things, from this period. He cannot write it plainly. He doesn't even explain why Ned is not angry with Rhaegar after what happened. And again, Ned is apparently refusing to think about this period. Shame or pain is the most logical explanation. When Cat asked Ned about Ashara, "That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her". Why react that way, if Ashara was nothing for him? Even if he didn't want to speak of Jon.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

It's known that quite a few people other than those listed were at the tournament. For all we know, the father was Jon Arryn, who is known to sire stillborns (stillborn daughters, no less), which is why one of many reasons why Lyssa's interpretation of "The seed is strong" was so comical. Jon would have been one of the few people that Ned might not turn on for dishonoring Ashara. Not that I'm really seriously putting forward this theory!

[Connartist92]

We don't even know that "dishonored" necessarily means she got pregnant. We'll find all this out when we finally meet Howland Reed. (I personally believe in the crackpot theory that Ashara is alive and Meera was the "stillborn" child. After the TOJ, Ashara faked her death and became Lady Jyana Reed - but I won't be surprised if I'm completely wrong.)

[corbon]

It would work as well this way. Brandon could have been playing with Ned. And it worked because Ned danced with Ashara. This and Edric saying: "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal"; are much better evidences than saying Brandon didn't care of Ned and Ashara feeling and had sex with her. We have ZERO evidence Brandon behaved that way. Only Brandon's reputation. But IMO, it is far far fetching to translate Brandon reputation into a rude attitude toward his little brother. And Ashara or the stillborn girl not dead in fact, to give some unspecified motive to the Brandon theory, are also, IMO, 100% unsuported assumptions.

You are making a straw man argument here. We aren't saying that Brandon didn't care about Ned and Ashara's feelings and so had sex with her. That is your false construct and not even rational. How does Brandon have consensual sex with Ashara (there is no evidence Brandon was into rape) if she is interested in Ned instead?

What we have done is point out that your idea that Brandon couldn't have had sex with Ashara because he cared for his brother and his brother loved Ashara fails on every count. There is not really any strong evidence that Brandon cared more for his brother's feeling than for himself (and plenty to show he was somewhat selfish or entitled). There's not any good evidence that Ned even cared for Ashara particularly.

The other thing we have done is point out that there is an alternative scenario to Ned liked Ashara that perfectly fits with all the data we have except the least reliable data, and we can see good reasons why that unrelaible data might come about even though it is wrong. If Brandon liked Ashara and Ned didn't have any particular feelings for her, then Brandon arranged the dance without any request from Ned and everything about that story still fits perfectly. Better in fact.

And I've already explained to you in some detailed why Ned Dayne's evidence is more or less worthless. Its self contradictory, comes from an unreliable source and fits perfectly into that unreliable source's likely motives.

No, I don't see it that way. For me, it fit well with Ned personality, contribute to why this period is so painful to him. While I don't see any value in mixing Brandon in Ashara story.

We know from Robert's comments that Ned always, even in his youth, had the same attitudes we see in him now.

Could you really see Ned having an affair now? Is it in his character? Would he be tortured by it and the results of it?

The answers are simply no.

He is tortured now by things in the past, but the timeline is 2 years short for Harrenhal (it matches Jon's birth though).

Ned could not marry her after Brandon's death, because he had to keep the agreement with Riverrun. BS to me, but it seems the way the Lords do. Between Harrendal and the war, they could have, but maybe they had not the time. Maybe there was a betrothal, but it was not very public. Barristan words may means he was aware. Maybe Rickard was against, maybe he had other plan.

Brandon's death is around a year after Harrenhal. Ned has ample time and opportunity to marry Ashara if he needed to.

And Ned not thinking about it? First GRRM is hiding something, a lot of things, from this period. He cannot write it plainly. He doesn't even explain why Ned is not angry with Rhaegar after what happened. And again, Ned is apparently refusing to think about this period. Shame or pain is the most logical explanation. When Cat asked Ned about Ashara, "That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her". Why react that way, if Ashara was nothing for him? Even if he didn't want to speak of Jon.

GRRM does give clues though. And there are no clues to a N+A relationship from Ned.

Ned isn't angry with Rhaegar because he knows Rhaegar wasn't responsible for any of Ned's pain. Ned talked to Lyanna at the end remember, and no way we got all of that conversation.

He does feel a lot of pain from the past and does shy away from it. We get clues all over the place as to what the pain comes from though and its pain for Lyanna and his family, nothing about Ashara. And there is no shame in him, not even for the treason he did to Robert hiding Jon.

Ned is quite explicit when Cat asked him about Ashara that his reaction is entirely about Jon's mother. Go read the passage again. He must shut down any discussion or gossip about Jon's mother because of the danger that could lead to for his entire family if anyone even thought of Jon being Rhaegar's son. Note that he didn't even mention Ashara. His only concern was for Catelyn never to ask him about Jon's mother and to find out where she had heard gossip about Jon's mother so he could shut that down as well. Catelyn thinks its Ashara's name he is reacting to because that is her preconceived idea and she lacks the information we have to think about what Ned actually says instead of mistaking the meaning of his words by laying them onto the idea she already has in her head. But we can read exactly what he says and apply that to the data we know and see the real truth in that conversation. Go back and read it again, and remember that there are enormous gaps in Jon's background that gossipy people could fill with all sorts of things, some of them possibly dangerously close to the truth.

[Sansa Snow]

You are making a straw man argument here. We aren't saying that Brandon didn't care about Ned and Ashara's feelings and so had sex with her. That is your false construct and not even rational. How does Brandon have consensual sex with Ashara (there is no evidence Brandon was into rape) if she is interested in Ned instead?

What we have done is point out that your idea that Brandon couldn't have had sex with Ashara because he cared for his brother and his brother loved Ashara fails on every count. There is not really any strong evidence that Brandon cared more for his brother's feeling than for himself (and plenty to show he was somewhat selfish or entitled). There's not any good evidence that Ned even cared for Ashara particularly.

The other thing we have done is point out that there is an alternative scenario to Ned liked Ashara that perfectly fits with all the data we have except the least reliable data, and we can see good reasons why that unrelaible data might come about even though it is wrong. If Brandon liked Ashara and Ned didn't have any particular feelings for her, then Brandon arranged the dance without any request from Ned and everything about that story still fits perfectly. Better in fact.

And I've already explained to you in some detailed why Ned Dayne's evidence is more or less worthless. Its self contradictory, comes from an unreliable source and fits perfectly into that unreliable source's likely motives.

We know from Robert's comments that Ned always, even in his youth, had the same attitudes we see in him now.

Could you really see Ned having an affair now? Is it in his character? Would he be tortured by it and the results of it?

The answers are simply no.

He is tortured now by things in the past, but the timeline is 2 years short for Harrenhal (it matches Jon's birth though).

Brandon's death is around a year after Harrenhal. Ned has ample time and opportunity to marry Ashara if he needed to.

GRRM does give clues though. And there are no clues to a N+A relationship from Ned.

Ned isn't angry with Rhaegar because he knows Rhaegar wasn't responsible for any of Ned's pain. Ned talked to Lyanna at the end remember, and no way we got all of that conversation.

He does feel a lot of pain from the past and does shy away from it. We get clues all over the place as to what the pain comes from though and its pain for Lyanna and his family, nothing about Ashara. And there is no shame in him, not even for the treason he did to Robert hiding Jon.

Ned is quite explicit when Cat asked him about Ashara that his reaction is entirely about Jon's mother. Go read the passage again. He must shut down any discussion or gossip about Jon's mother because of the danger that could lead to for his entire family if anyone even thought of Jon being Rhaegar's son. Note that he didn't even mention Ashara. His only concern was for Catelyn never to ask him about Jon's mother and to find out where she had heard gossip about Jon's mother so he could shut that down as well. Catelyn thinks its Ashara's name he is reacting to because that is her preconceived idea and she lacks the information we have to think about what Ned actually says instead of mistaking the meaning of his words by laying them onto the idea she already has in her head. But we can read exactly what he says and apply that to the data we know and see the real truth in that conversation. Go back and read it again, and remember that there are enormous gaps in Jon's background that gossipy people could fill with all sorts of things, some of them possibly dangerously close to the truth.

Since you believe Ashara/Brandon happened, I want to ask you something.

Do you think that when Barristan thinks about Ashara looking to a Stark, means he nows it's Brandon she went to? Those who believe Brandon dishonored Ashara usually believe looked to a Stark means that Stark dishonoured her. So wouldn't Barristan's thoughts then mean that he knows it's Brandon who fathered her child?

[BalerionTheCat]

You are making a straw man argument here. We aren't saying that Brandon didn't care about Ned and Ashara's feelings and so had sex with her. That is your false construct and not even rational. How does Brandon have consensual sex with Ashara (there is no evidence Brandon was into rape) if she is interested in Ned instead?

I've never suggested Brandon raped Ashara. There is no evidence Brandon had any view on Ashara (as he spoke to her for Ned), or Ashara was interested by a man of Brandon's reputation. Given she felt dishonored, and Brandon's apparent reputation and betrothal with Cat, I don't see how he could be the father. You may call my arguments, assumptions. I would qualify them of "best guess with our available knowledge". But IMO, your assumptions for Brandon are nearly proven impossible. Honestly, I would see Aerys or Robert or even Howland Reed, before Brandon, not that it makes a lot of sense.

We know from Robert's comments that Ned always, even in his youth, had the same attitudes we see in him now.

Could you really see Ned having an affair now? Is it in his character? Would he be tortured by it and the results of it?

The answers are simply no.

Robert believed Ned had his bastard with a tavern wench and remembers good times together. While Ned was never Robert, nothing prove he was at this time as honor obsessed as he was later. In fact, I was trying to understand why GRRM had written Ashara's story. I don't think GRRM writes anything without some purpose. She is obviously one of the speculated mothers for Jon. One who is not possible. I believe we agree on that. Even if you question the testimony of Barristan about the stillborn girl. IMHO, you seem to exclude too much testimonies, just because they do not fit your assumptions. That girl is the only thing that formally excludes Ashara as Jon's mother. Nothing proves for sure Ashara get pregnant at Harrendal, even if it is the most logical. There are also two other speculated mothers, the wet nurse and the fisher girl. But I finally believe Ned's traumatic experience with Ashara, making a promise he could not hold, is part of his personality construction, regarding his promise to Lyanna and his fidelity to Cat.

Brandon's death is around a year after Harrenhal. Ned has ample time and opportunity to marry Ashara if he needed to.

I am aware of the question of the delay between Harrendal and Brandon's death. The tourney was in 281, but we don't know the month. And Lyanna was "abducted" at "the coming of the new year". So there was not necessary that many months in between. And again we know nothing of Rickard POV.

Ned isn't angry with Rhaegar because he knows Rhaegar wasn't responsible for any of Ned's pain. Ned talked to Lyanna at the end remember, and no way we got all of that conversation.

My point about Rhaegar was that GRRM have not explained everything yet. So we don't necessarily have all that was said and done between Ned and Ashara.

And there is no shame in him, not even for the treason he did to Robert hiding Jon.

I never imagined Ned could feel shame for betraying the king Robert, concerning Jon's real father. Cat yes, but not Robert. Just me, however. You could think differently. My Ned would never feel shame in protecting a babe from a sure death.

Ned is quite explicit when Cat asked him about Ashara that his reaction is entirely about Jon's mother. Go read the passage again. He must shut down any discussion or gossip about Jon's mother because of the danger that could lead to for his entire family if anyone even thought of Jon being Rhaegar's son. Note that he didn't even mention Ashara. His only concern was for Catelyn never to ask him about Jon's mother and to find out where she had heard gossip about Jon's mother so he could shut that down as well. Catelyn thinks its Ashara's name he is reacting to because that is her preconceived idea and she lacks the information we have to think about what Ned actually says instead of mistaking the meaning of his words by laying them onto the idea she already has in her head. But we can read exactly what he says and apply that to the data we know and see the real truth in that conversation. Go back and read it again, and remember that there are enormous gaps in Jon's background that gossipy people could fill with all sorts of things, some of them possibly dangerously close to the truth.

Concerning his reaction to Cat's question, his answer was about Jon. But the question was about Ashara. At least, it is how she remembers it. "I will learn where you heard that name ... and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again". They were speaking of Ashara, no question about that. Ned may not have use her name. But they were speaking about her. In fact, what would have been dangerous for Jon, would be to start thinking Ashara was not the mother. Speaking of her was perfectly safe.

[TheNorthRemember]

It could be that Ned Dayne (the young who knows Arya) is the bastard son of Brandob and Ashara.George mentioned that there might be some bastard Stark loose in Westeros.

[Consigliere]

It could be that Ned Dayne (the young who knows Arya) is the bastard son of Brandob and Ashara.George mentioned that there might be some bastard Stark loose in Westeros.

Too young. He is twelve in ASoS, placing his birth circa. 287AC, long after Brandon's death.

[sweetsunray]

Concerning his reaction to Cat's question, his answer was about Jon. But the question was about Ashara. At least, it is how she remembers it. "I will learn where you heard that name ... and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again". They were speaking of Ashara, no question about that. Ned may not have use her name. But they were speaking about her. In fact, what would have been dangerous for Jon, would be to start thinking Ashara was not the mother. Speaking of her was perfectly safe.

Actually very good point! It suggests that Ned Stark does not want Cat to know about Ashara.

Remember, how surprised Edric Dayne is that Arya has never heard of Ashara or Wylla. Edric is proud to be Ned Stark's namesake and of Jon having been his milk brother. In Edric Dayne's eyes Ned Stark fathered a bastard and had to break off any unofficial engegament/promise with his aunt, and his whole family still think well of him. Well, they're Dornish and Dornish have queer ideas, especially in comparison to the rest of Westeros that is mostly influenced by the 7. They don't blame Ned Stark breaking Ashara's heart that leads to her jumping from a tower of Starfall. Why don't they blame him? Because he had to honour the official engagement between a Stark and Tully.

Speculation about Ashara being Jon's mother could not be an issue really. Other regions speculate about 3 different women: fisher women, Wylla, Ashara. Cat thinking Ashara might be Jon's mother does not put Jon in any danger. So, that is not the reason Ned would shut the household up about it. So, it's something else... He doesn't want Cat or his children to know that he might have had feelings and even an unofficial bethrotal with someone else, and that Cat's bethrotal to Brandon and Brandon's death forced Ned to become Lord of WF and Cat's husband instead. He didn't love Cat at first. Their love grew during the marriage over the years.

If you're forced to a marriage and learn to love your wife, would you ever want her to know that you ever wished to marry someone else, and that promises made between their fathers forced you to let the other woman go, that it caused that woman to commit suicide? Of course, you don't. She's already jealous over a bastard supposedly begotten with a fling and harsh to the child. Are you going to burden her with the knowledge - I wanted someone else, and I had to marry you instead, so she leapt to her death?

He does say to Cat never to ask him about Jon in the sentence before that - which of course is reasonable. If she doesn't ask questions, he doesn't need to lie to her. And if there never had been anything romantic between Ned and Ashara he could have just told Cat - no, she isn't his mother. Instead he answers her question with a question. That is always suspect.

As for Ned's bitterness of Brandon:

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass me."

Ned's indeed bitter about Brandon, but not for having meant to have everything. The last sentence of that paragraph reveals he's bitter that Brandon's death meant Ned was forced to marry Cat, become Lord of WF and broker political deals. He didn't want any of it. But it was his duty. So, he did it and he learned to be happy about it.

[BalerionTheCat]

It could be that Ned Dayne (the young who knows Arya) is the bastard son of Brandob and Ashara.George mentioned that there might be some bastard Stark loose in Westeros.

In this SSM, GRRM said:

" Brandon died before he had sons". But I would think he meant "legitimate sons".

and

"It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children".

So yes, as for Robert, we could expect some bastards ...

ETA: or legitimate children, but with the wrong father. Any idea?

ETA2: Domeric Bolton for example.

[sweetsunray]

Edric Dayne was born well after the Rebellion. He's of the same age as Sansa, 2 years older than Arya. So, no, Edric Dayne can't be Brandon's or Ned's bastard with Ashara.

[BalerionTheCat]

Agree with you about everything.

Speculation about Ashara being Jon's mother could not be an issue really.

The fisher's girl story is known by only a few. And not many more would believe in Ned falling for a common girl either. IMO, Ashara was a much more believable mother than the other girls. It was much safer to keep this speculation open.

Yes, Cat said her marriage was difficult in the beginning. There was that woman she thought was Jon's mother "Ned must have loved her fiercely". And the big secret, Jon the visible part "nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away". Ned and Cat were not expected to marry. But was that really a problem? OK Cat supposition concerning Jon was false. But could not she be correct, when she thought Ned was loving someone else before her?

And why Ned would be resentful of his brother? Because of his easy way with women, or whatever stupid prank? Why if Ned had ever loved only Cat? Much more logical if he resents Brandon reaction after Lyanna kidnaping. Causing his death and Ned's obligation to abandon the woman he loved. Plus their father's death, the poor fate of Jon. Possibly Lyanna's death also, if she died because she could not receive the proper care. Or had not the honors she deserved.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Being platonic is kind of Barristan 's point though, he sees that as better. If Ashara had developed a crush on him neither of them would have dishonoured themselves, she would not have gotten pregnant and would not have killed herself for grief.

If the being dishonoured and looking to Stark were two seperate things then it is really strange that it is the looking to Stark he wishes he could have prevented her looking to Stark for help rather than that he could have prevented her being dishonoured; Barristan wouldn't have any better than Stark was at helping her baby not die so that she wouldn't have killed herself. If they are the same thing then if Ashara had looked to Barristan instead of Stark she would not have been dishonoured and would not have killed herself for grief.

If Rhaegar, Elia and Arthur were out of Ashara's sphere of contact than Barristan probably would have been too. If we can't put her with or writing too any of those people up to the time of the stillborn girl then Barristan having that knowledge / belief is hard to explain. He's a guard for two of them and sworn brother of the third so him witnessing / overhearing something or being confined in is his best avenue for knowing anything about what Ashara was up to.

Barristan would have had no reason to go to Dorne after Harrenhal and neither did Rhaegar not Elia, so maybe Ashara spent her entire pregnancy at Dragonstone? Barristan could maybe have been posted there at that time, and if the rest of the Daynes never knew of her pregnancy it could maybe help explain why they don't think badly of Ned.

Consider this possibility: Ashara goes to a Stark for help. Said Stark is either unable or unwilling to help. If she'd gone to Barristan, he would have found a way to help her no matter what. Thus the "looked to" for help is still a viable option. Let's say the help she wanted was the father of her child to marry her. Obviously that does not seem to have happened. If Barristan had been able to get, say Rhaegar, to push the issue, Ashara would have been married and there would have been little to no scandal. Now, if the pregnancy occurred AFTER Harrenhal and she went to a Stark for help...well they did get rather preoccupied with Lyanna disappearing and two of the men being murdered by Crazy Pyro King. Whereas Barry might have been able to find a minute to maybe threaten to kill the father if he didn't do right by Ashara, quick before the war broke out.

Not knowing when she got pregnant does rather put a damper on establishing this with any kind of certainty.

And we don't know that she killed herself for grief. We know that's the story, but there's no actual proof and only second-hand info.

Regarding the bolded: one word...gossip. When Ashara's pregnancy started showing (or before if she had morning sickness) she would have been sent away from court--or from Elia's service, thus no she couldn't have been on Dragonstone the whole time. The subsequent story of her death also would have spread rather quickly. Beautiful young woman with her whole life ahead of her jumps to her death after losing a child and a beloved brother. There's no way that story is not going to be repeated repeatedly!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

In this SSM, GRRM said:

" Brandon died before he had sons". But I would think he meant "legitimate sons".

and

"It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children".

So yes, as for Robert, we could expect some bastards ...

ETA: or legitimate children, but with the wrong father. Any idea?

ETA2: Domeric Bolton for example.

If he meant that, he would have said that, and enjoyed the rampant speculation.

Domeric Bolton was a contemporary of Brandon and Lyanna's.

[Ygrain]

Robert believed Ned had his bastard with a tavern wench and remembers good times together. While Ned was never Robert, nothing prove he was at this time as honor obsessed as he was later.

"She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour"

[Buried Treasure]

Consider this possibility: Ashara goes to a Stark for help. Said Stark is either unable or unwilling to help. If she'd gone to Barristan, he would have found a way to help her no matter what. Thus the "looked to" for help is still a viable option. Let's say the help she wanted was the father of her child to marry her. Obviously that does not seem to have happened. If Barristan had been able to get, say Rhaegar, to push the issue, Ashara would have been married and there would have been little to no scandal. Now, if the pregnancy occurred AFTER Harrenhal and she went to a Stark for help...well they did get rather preoccupied with Lyanna disappearing and two of the men being murdered by Crazy Pyro King. Whereas Barry might have been able to find a minute to maybe threaten to kill the father if he didn't do right by Ashara, quick before the war broke out.

Not knowing when she got pregnant does rather put a damper on establishing this with any kind of certainty.

And we don't know that she killed herself for grief. We know that's the story, but there's no actual proof and only second-hand info.

Regarding the bolded: one word...gossip. When Ashara's pregnancy started showing (or before if she had morning sickness) she would have been sent away from court--or from Elia's service, thus no she couldn't have been on Dragonstone the whole time. The subsequent story of her death also would have spread rather quickly. Beautiful young woman with her whole life ahead of her jumps to her death after losing a child and a beloved brother. There's no way that story is not going to be repeated repeatedly!

There's gossip surrounding Ashara alright, that's why everyone and his dog have at least had the passing thought she is Jon's mother. Her having a stillborn girl is pretty specific however, and not hinted at in other gossip still floating around about Ashara.

That specific bit of 'knowledge' (it may not be actually true, but like 'killed herself for grief' it is what Barristan believes he knows) is less likely to be gossip than insider information. Barristan himself wasn't a free agent, as a Kingsguard he'd probably be around a royal unless sent away for a certain mission. If Ashara returned to Dorne then it is hard to put Barristan near her, likewise if she sought out any of the Starks staying at Riverrun or Harrenhal before the abduction. Place her at DS however, or writing letters to Elia, and it doesn't take a great speculative leap to work out why he would have information about a stillborn that never reached the general gossip.