Ashara Dayne's child

[Bael's Bastard]

He was never lord of Winterfell, and it is acknowledged in the book that it was unusual for him to have a statue because of that. He was not buried as a lord in his own right, but, like Lyanna, as a child of Rickard, buried beside him.

[Consigliere]

I don't mean that Ned doesn't think about any women (such as his wife and family), but that he doesn't think of any woman (as in a love interest).

I got the impression from his conversation with Robert about the mother of his bastard that he may have indeed broken his vows during the war. But it could also just be him wanting to keep Robert from thinking or talking too much about Jon. Or it could be both.

For him to have broken his vows with Ashara it would IIRC have had to be during the war.

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them." - AGoT, Eddard IX

I think that the bolded in the quote says it all and Ned's story about Wylla was just that - a story. The fact that Ned never thinks about a love interest shows that there probably wasn't one.

[Minuteman]

One of the strongest reasons for Ned being the plausible father imho is that the Daynes seem to hold him in high regard despite his killing Arthur. This suggests that there is A LOT more story to Ned Stark and House Dayne. As I have mentioned I think that Ned slept with Ashara at Harrenhal and made her pregnant. He asks his father to arrange the marriage. Rickard agrres and negotiates with the Lord of Starfall after which the marriage is agreed. Lyanna heads to Dorne to accompany Ashara north for the wedding and is abducted. Rickard and Brandon are killed and Ned sentenced to die. Jon Arryn rebels as do the storm lords. Ned sends a letter to Starfall stating that he still wishes to marry Ashara but he is now under sentence of death and is a rebel. He is more like to make Ashara a widow than a lady and she would be in the position as his lady wife of bearing arms against her own house. He allows the Daynes to withdraw from the contract without being deemed oathbreakers to which they assent. Then he marries Cat. To me this seems to be the most likely Ned-like route that keeps the Daynes favorably disposed toward him.

[Marcel]

He was never lord of Winterfell, and it is acknowledged in the book that it was unusual for him to have a statue because of that. He was not buried as a lord in his own right, but, like Lyanna, as a child of Rickard, buried beside him.

I don't think Ned would wait for the end of the rebellion to provide his father's and brother's tombs with statues. When he was beheaded, soon after the news came to Winterfell, they already sought a sculptor who was familiar with Ned. I believe that as he was not sure who died first, he thought it would be reasonable that both his brother as his father had a statue. Only after the end of the rebellion is that he was able to question someone about what really happened in King's Landing. I believe that, even if he had been informed that Brandon died before Rickard, he would not remove Brandon's statue. Lyanna's statue, on the other hand, is a unique thing.

[Consigliere]

The only time i remember him thinking about Lyanna is when he's dreaming with the milk of the puppy it isn't a conscientt thinking, he never thought about her consciently, because it hurt him, the same about Ashara

Nope. His memories of Lyanna are invoked on numerous occasions throughout AGoT.

[LordQorgyle]

Nope. His memories of Lyanna are invoked on numerous occasions throughout AGoT.

Probably i haven't read the first book in years it is the only one i don't own..

[Marcel]

Brandon probably died after his father, so for a short time he was the Lord of House Stark.

About naming his son after the bother he was jealous,how many Brandons exist in the Stark family? Its a common name for a Stark,there were good and cruel Brandons in the past.

The fact is that at his own mind Ned shows some angry issues toward his brother,that Brandon always "needed "to be the first in everything.

After the reveal of the Lady Dustin affair, and that Brandon loved to deflore young ladies,he forcing his way with Ashara is logical.

Brandon liked to be the first in everything, liked to deflore virgins. He was the first to talk to Ashara, he introduced Ned to her,maybe he thought that should bang her first also.

If that was forced or consensual, who knows.

I dont think that he forced himself upon women. But I doubt that Brandon was such nice guy. I do not believe that Brandon seduced young ladies by telling the truth. I have no doubt, for example, that he knew he was promised to Catelyn long before he slept with Lady Dustin for the first time. The same could have happened to Ashara. She must have been delighted with him and thought she could be the next Lady Stark. Only to discover the next day that Brandon would marry the daughter of Hoster Tully.

[William MK Stark]

Have you guys read about this theory ? I don't 100% agree with it (the Arthur part) but find it pretty plausible and can potentially explain a bunch of questions :

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

[Balerion the kitten]

I may be one of the few who really don't care about ashara and her death/life.

Although i'm curious about who the father of her still born girl is.

My guess is brandon. He was in the dungeons, they had already met, one thing led to another and after the war (which judging from lyanna and jon would be about 9 months) has a baby girl that dies.

[Greymoon]

I interpret Selmy's comment to indicate that the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal was already dead. If so, that would eliminate Ned, Connington, Oberyn, Howland, Robert, Mace, and Jaime. I also interpret Selmy's comment to indicate that Selmy knows or thinks he knows the identity of the person, and thinks Ashara perhaps grieved for his death.

Personally, I don't think it was Aerys or Rhaegar. Don't know about Lonmouth. I could buy that it was Brandon. But I think I lean toward a KG, someone she could never marry. Of Darry, Hightower, Whent, and Martell I might lean toward Martell for superficial reasons. But he also seems to have had a serious relationship with someone still alive.

What in Barristan's comment indicates that the man was already dead?

[Marcel]

Greymoon, perhaps you could add in the "cons" regarding Aerys the fact that nobody was burnt at Harrenhal during the tourney.

[Greymoon]

I think Ned was the father of Ashara's stillborn girl. The reason he couldn't marry her immediately is because he wasn't the head of his family and it isn't known if Ashara's eldest brother was there. I think it likely that Ned asked his father to arrange the marriage and it was in negotiation or even agreed to when Lyanna was abducted. In aCoK when Tywin informs Tyrion that Robb has set aside the Freys to marry Jeyne Westerling Tyrion expresses bewilderment. Tywin then says a telling line: "Jeyne Westerling is her mothers daughter and Robb Stark his fathers son." Robb Stark, unlike Ned, was free to make his own decision on whom to marry.

Yes, Robb is his father's son, or so Tywin thinks. For people in universe, that means he's honorable to a fault. Ironically, if it was Ned who dishonored Ashara, Robb did the exact opposite of what Ned did. Robb was to marry a Frey in exchange for a bridge and for Lord Frey's support in the war. He gave that all up in favor for marrying Jeyne Westerling, a girl from an ancient line, from a proud, but powerless house.

While Ned married Catelyn Tully in order to win a war.

Are the Daynes an ancient, proud, but ultimately powerless house? There was a Jeyne Westerling married to King Maegor...There was a Dayne married to King Maekar. The Crag is located in the northwestern westerlands... Starfall is, sort of, located in the northwestern part of Dorne? Starfall and the Crag are on the western coast, either way.

Coincidence?

[TheHodorThatWasPromised]

I am not sure if Ned was the father or not, but a betrothal between Ned and Ashara would fit very well with Rickard Starks plans. Brandon would provide the link with the Riverlands, Lyanna with the Stormlands, Ned with Dorne and the Vale, and the fact that Ashara was a close friend of the future queen of Westeros was a big extra bonus. He would still have Benjen to form a link with the Reach, The Westlands or the Crownlands when he came of age. If it had been allowed to happen, Rickard Stark would be the best connected man in the seven kingdoms.

[Greymoon]

I believe the father was Ned and the child is alive and is Allyria SnowSand.

I like this theory a lot, but I don't think we have enough information to go on with, besides for that one SSM. It does exist, doesn't it? The one where GRRM states that Brandon died before having fathered sons...?

But what purpose would Allyria Dayne/Stark serve, in the narrative? She creates a further connection between House Stark and House Dayne, but...? And does that mean she's also a warg?

ETA:

oops. You said Ned! lol. I read Brandon. I'm not familiar with the theory that Ned is Allyria's father. I've hear of the same, concerning Brandon, though. :)

[Greymoon]

One of the strongest reasons for Ned being the plausible father imho is that the Daynes seem to hold him in high regard despite his killing Arthur. This suggests that there is A LOT more story to Ned Stark and House Dayne. As I have mentioned I think that Ned slept with Ashara at Harrenhal and made her pregnant. He asks his father to arrange the marriage. Rickard agrres and negotiates with the Lord of Starfall after which the marriage is agreed. Lyanna heads to Dorne to accompany Ashara north for the wedding and is abducted. Rickard and Brandon are killed and Ned sentenced to die. Jon Arryn rebels as do the storm lords. Ned sends a letter to Starfall stating that he still wishes to marry Ashara but he is now under sentence of death and is a rebel. He is more like to make Ashara a widow than a lady and she would be in the position as his lady wife of bearing arms against her own house. He allows the Daynes to withdraw from the contract without being deemed oathbreakers to which they assent. Then he marries Cat. To me this seems to be the most likely Ned-like route that keeps the Daynes favorably disposed toward him.

But why would getting Ashara pregnant, failing to marry her and killing Arthur Dayne lead to House Dayne in general, holding Eddard in high regard? that doesn't make much sense. If anything, they should hate him.

[corbon]

First, have any of you considered that there might not be any daughter, or even any son?

Barristan is an entirely unreliable witness here. There is almost no chance that he has actually seen Ashara since she left court (probably early in her pregnancy), so he only actually knows what he's been told. By someone with an agenda.

Having said that, there's no real reason to assume that there wasn't a child, as opposed to there was. I personally favour the Allyria theory, where Ashara's mother takes the child and it is raised as Ashara's sister. People are tod of a stillbirth and Allyria gets raised as a trueborn Dayne. The reason I favour it is that it helps explain why Allyria appears to be >20 years younger than her siblings Ashara and Arthur - 18-19 years after the events of Harrenhal she has been betrothed to a mid-20s Lord for 6 years but is not yet married, which suggests she is young, as opposed to the spinsterish 30ish she'd need to be to be closer to Ashara's generation.

But why would getting Ashara pregnant, failing to marry her and killing Arthur Dayne lead to House Dayne in general, holding Eddard in high regard? that doesn't make much sense. If anything, they should hate him.

Making sense doesn't have a high priority it seems. More important to hold onto pet theories.

Ned didn't get Ashara pregnant. There's nothing truly reliable that actually places them together, other than dance partners once. The rumours come from people who weren't around and are a logical extension of bastard Jon turning up immediately after Ned returns Dawn to Starfall and Ashara supposedly commits suicide. The episode with Catelyn was all about shutting down discussion of Jon's origins (Ned is explicit about that and such discussion is very dangerous). Ned Dayne's story is from a source not likely around at the time, and internally inconsistent (N+A in love but N+W=J?). The Harrenhal story doesn't say Ned wanted to dance with her, its says he was so shy he wasn't getting off his bench. Big brother had to ask a girl to ask him to dance. Doesn't indicate in any way whether the initiative was from Ned or Brandon there, but note that Ashara does what Brandon asked her to.
Since he didn't get her pregnant and in fact didn't have any relationship with her, not marrying her is not an issue for the Daynes.

Killing Arthur Dayne is just war, not personal. Mostly people understand that (Karstark being a notable example of an extreme exception).

More importantly, he returned Dawn. You know, that literally unique, totally legendary artifact that your 10,000 year old house is almost entirely based on. That he could have legitimately kept as the spoils of war.

Its no wonder the Daynes rate him highly.

[Kal-L]

I don't mean that Ned doesn't think about any women (such as his wife and family), but that he doesn't think of any woman (as in a love interest).

I got the impression from his conversation with Robert about the mother of his bastard that he may have indeed broken his vows during the war. But it could also just be him wanting to keep Robert from thinking or talking too much about Jon. Or it could be both.

For him to have broken his vows with Ashara it would IIRC have had to be during the war.

But the point is, in lying about Jon's mother Ned not only lied to his best friend about Lyanna but also to his king about a possible threat to his crown. Robert was the last person Ned would like to talk about Jon, that's why he felt guilty and wanted to drop the topic whenever Robert brought it on the table.

Does Ned think about Ashara even once during his 15 POV chapters? Not that I recall and it does not jive with what is known about Ned's character: that he would not spare a single thought for the woman he supposedly fathered a child on and presumably cared for, even if it was 15 years later. This rules out Ned as the father, imo.

Agreed.

[Greymoon]

Sorry, what I said was just hyperbole. My point is that Ned would not take months to resolve the matter involving marriage with Ashara, even more if she was pregnant. I think this issue is a little more complicated. Ned may have been needed to repair another act of Brandon. We know from Lady Dustin that her father nursed the idea to wed her to Ned. Why Lord Rodrik Ryswell would nurse such idea? Is it possible that he was considering to take the issue regarding her dishonoring by Brandon to Lord Rickard Stark and hoped that he would offer Ned as a compensation

I honestly think it just has to do with the Starks being the ruling family in the north. Barbrey mentions that her father was happy enough to offer her up to any Stark passing by. So presumably, that was even before Brandon dishonored her. That it was Brandon doing the deed, was probably added bonus, since he was the heir and all that, but imo, Lord Ryswell just wanted his daughter to marry a Stark - any Stark.

His other daughter, Bethany, married Roose Bolton. Lord Ryswell had northern ambitions, he probably wanted to become a big player in northern politics and he tried that, by pushing for an alliance with both House Bolton and House Stark, two age old rivals.

[Greymoon]

Does Ned think about Ashara even once during his 15 POV chapters? Not that I recall and it does not jive with what is known about Ned's character: that he would not spare a single thought for the woman he supposedly fathered a child on and presumably cared for, even if it was 15 years later. This rules out Ned as the father, imo.

I think so, too...imo, the most likely candidate is Brandon.... But Robert Baratheon is actually, not so far fetched, is it? Ned would take the fall/blame, for either of these two. The first is his brother by blood, the second his brother by choice.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Brandon probably died after his father, so for a short time he was the Lord of House Stark. -The magic word is maybe

About naming his son after the bother he was jealous,how many Brandons exist in the Stark family? Its a common name for a Stark,there were good and cruel Brandons in the past.-And if you hated someone no matter who other was named with the same name, you would had use that name to your son?

The fact is that at his own mind Ned shows some angry issues toward his brother,that Brandon always "needed "to be the first in everything.-Because Brandon was better than he was in almost everything. Also Ned said that Brandon was better not first.

After the reveal of the Lady Dustin affair, and that Brandon loved to deflore young ladies,he forcing his way with Ashara is logical.-Because having sex is the same with rape? So, sex addicts are rapists? Also LD said bloody sword and two of them. He liked his sword bloody, it's not like he was a warrior right?

Brandon liked to be the first in everything, liked to deflore virgins. He was the first to talk to Ashara, he introduced Ned to her,maybe he thought that should bang her first also.-That is fanfiction.

If that was forced or consensual, who knows.-From what you have said it seems that you know.