Ashara Dayne's child

[eva-e]

There was another guy Ashara danced with ...

I know Jon "pining over Rhaegar" Connington seems an unlikely candidate. But what if he was trying to get over the prince by getting under someone with the same eye color? We can't discount him being bi.

She might then have later been grieving his exile. I have no idea where either Stark comes into it, though.

[Ygrain]

Brandon, hands down.

Ashara's pregnancy and tragedy are brought up in the same book where we learn that Brandon was not-quite-so-honourable Stark as far as noble maidens were concerned. That's hardly an accident. Furthermore, the bitterness in "everything was always for Brandon" seems a bit out of character for Ned if it concerned merely inheritance, but it would be very fitting if Brandon took more than just what being the firstborn entitled him to.

[Greymoon]

Brandon, hands down.

Ashara's pregnancy and tragedy are brought up in the same book where we learn that Brandon was not-quite-so-honourable Stark as far as noble maidens were concerned. That's hardly an accident. Furthermore, the bitterness in "everything was always for Brandon" seems a bit out of character for Ned if it concerned merely inheritance, but it would be very fitting if Brandon took more than just what being the firstborn entitled him to.

Agreed. Do you think Allyria Dayne is Ashara's daughter?

[Ygrain]

Agreed. Do you think Allyria Dayne is Ashara's daughter?

I'm not 100% convinced but I consider it a very plausible theory.

[Dorian Martell]

It had to be Brandon. Benjen was too young, Ned was too reserved and honorable and Lyanna didn't have a penis ( I know, I know, she could have a secret targ penis as the author did not specifically say she did not possess one.) Brandon was the wild wolf that had no issue screwing highborn maidens and commenting on their blood on his "sword" after he had done the deed. It makes sense that he would make the two back beast with a dusky Dornish woman at the biggest tourney in history

[Jon's Queen Consort]

not-quite-so-honourable Stark as far as noble maidens were concerned.

C'mon! You know better than that! Why a consensual sexual relationship between two willing partners is dishonorable? Why he is to blame for what the ladies did? Did he even promised them something that he hadn't done?

[Marcel]

I honestly think it just has to do with the Starks being the ruling family in the north. Barbrey mentions that her father was happy enough to offer her up to any Stark passing by. So presumably, that was even before Brandon dishonored her. That it was Brandon doing the deed, was probably added bonus, since he was the heir and all that, but imo, Lord Ryswell just wanted his daughter to marry a Stark - any Stark.

His other daughter, Bethany, married Roose Bolton. Lord Ryswell had northern ambitions, he probably wanted to become a big player in northern politics and he tried that, by pushing for an alliance with both House Bolton and House Stark, two age old rivals.

I hope you do not think I disagree with you on this issue, I think Lord Rodrik Ryswell had interest in deepening his relations with House Stark. But I think that the scenario I presented is not implausible, because, according to what Lady Barbrey Dustin says, and if we can trust that she is providing an honest account on this matter, the fact Lord Ryswell contemplated Ned as a possible husband for her came after it was disclosed that Brandon would marry Catelyn.

“The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though ... there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together ... but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon’s brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me.”

[Ygrain]

C'mon! You know better than that! Why a consensual sexual relationship between two willing partners is dishonorable? Why he is to blame for what the ladies did? Did he even promised them something that he hadn't done?

Because we're in Westeros, where a woman's honour lies between her legs and her virginity, or lack of, establishes her value as a wedding pawn of her house. If she is deflowered, or even impregnated, she is "soiled" goods, and if this becomes known, she has no chance of a decent marriage.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because we're in Westeros, where a woman's honour lies between her legs and her virginity, or lack of, establishes her value as a wedding pawn of her house. If she is deflowered, or even impregnated, she is "soiled" goods, and if this becomes known, she has no chance of a decent marriage.

Could be, because a maidenhead doesn't proove or disprove nothing. But in any case it isn't about the woman. If someone comes to a willing adult and says "Do you wanna have sex?" how it is his mistake what the other chose?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I don't know why so many people assume "turned to Stark" means she went to bed with one. Given the wording it sounds like she was dishonored and THEN turned to a Stark...for help. Turning to a Stark for help would be unlikely if the one who dishonored her was a Stark, unless she went to Rickard with a complaint, but that would be her father or brother's job, not hers. It makes a lot more sense if the offender was a bannerman or other associate of House Stark, and she felt it had to be dealt with immediately. Normally she would turn the situation over to her father or elder brother, as society dictated. There's a reason she didn't want her family to deal with it, or thought there wasn't time.

I also don't know why everyone seems to assume that "dishonored" automatically equals pregnancy. There are ample ways to dishonor a girl in a medieval society without actually taking her to bed. After the fact she would have been considered off the market as far as advantageous marriages were concerned, which would have made her an easier target for all kinds of men.

Barristan's thoughts make it sound like she lost the baby rather close to Ned's returning Dawn to Starfall. We know he went there after he'd found Lyanna dying. We know he found Lyanna dying after King's Landing had been sacked and Robert presented with the bodies of Elia, AegonMaybe, and Rhaenys. The war was pretty much over by then. So if Ashara gave birth within a few months of Ned's visit, Brandon was dead long before the child was conceived. GRRM has also made a point of saying that Ashara was not "nailed down" during the war. No reason to mention that unless it's important, perhaps as a "who's the father" bit.

Ned didn't even have the guts to ask Ashara to dance, and people think he slept with her? That makes no sense.

I know there's a theory that Lyanna was traveling to Dorne herself, but don't we have information that she was actually on the way to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding when she disappeared? There's zero chance that Rickard would allow his daughter to travel un-escorted all the way to Dorne, for any reason. And Rhaegar, Oswell, and Arthur did pick her up in the Riverlands, according to the story. No reason for them to do that if she was already headed to Dorne, is there?

Here's a question: why was Howland Reed so fascinated with Ashara? I don't recall Meera's story including all the dance partners of any other lady attending the feast.

[Greymoon]

Here's a question: why was Howland Reed so fascinated with Ashara? I don't recall Meera's story including all the dance partners of any other lady attending the feast.

So Howland Reed, then? I like the H+A = M&J theory, but it's a bit too convoluted, imo. It requires Ashara to fake her death...

My own pet theory about Ashara being at the center of the Harrenhal tale by Meera, is that Ashara was a 'spy', or middle-woman for Rhaegar and his co-plotters. She has the profile, in the eyes of a westerosi man, of a femme fatale > beautiful, unmarried, dornish... considering the prejudice the rest of westeros has about the dornish, that is equivalent to saying 'sexually available'.

I'm not claiming she was, or that it was her role to seduce men to her bed ;) only that she could have used that reputation to her advantage. Think about it...Arthur was Rhaegar's friend, a dear old friend. Ashara was Elia's companion....Ashara as a middle-man is perfect, because she's close to the royal couple, but distant enough and free enough, that her movements wouldn't appear suspicious. No one would suspect a woman, either, imo.

Ashara danced with Jon Connington, and Oberyn Martell, and quite possibly with Arthur, too....iirc, at Sansa's wedding with Tyrion, Sansa dances with Garlan Tyrell, and they exchange quiet confidences. In a crowded room, dancing with someone creates enough intimacy to exchange quiet words....

[Arrow of the Morning]

Ned and Brandon are the most likely candidates. They both had contact with Ashara. What Meera told to Bran was just the opening feast in the first night. The Tourney last 10 days, each night had a feast and the lords and ladies had contact during the day, one of them could have seduced Ashara in the meanwhile.

Brandon was tall, handsome, very good warrior and dashing, had no shame in sleep with maidens. Ned was not so tall, or handsome and was shy. So Brandon is the most likely candidate. But is not impossible that Ned could slept with her. Even when a guy is not so attractive he can (sometimes) seduce a woman.

If was Brandon that impregnated Ashara, how it could turned a secret? The servants of Winterfell knew about a possible relationship about Ned and Ashara. but if was Brandon that dishonored Ashara, how Catelyn never knew it?

But we have a similar story in the books. When Lysa got pregnant by Littlefinger, Hoster Tully managed to keep the identity of Lysa child's father a secret, not even Jon Arryn or Catelyn knew who dishonored Lysa. So is possible that Lord Rickard Stark keep Brandon's secret and send Ned to marry Ashara to cover his brother's reputation and repair what he made.

[Minuteman]

Ned didn't even have the guts to ask Ashara to dance, and people think he slept with her? That makes no sense.

According to Meera the tourney went on for five more days after Ned was too shy to ask her to dance with him directly. A lot can happen in five days.

[Marcel]

I think so, too...imo, the most likely candidate is Brandon.... But Robert Baratheon is actually, not so far fetched, is it? Ned would take the fall/blame, for either of these two. The first is his brother by blood, the second his brother by choice.

Robert acknowledged his bastard (Edric Storm) with Delena Florent, a highborn lady like Ashara Dayne. If Ashara and Robert had a daughter, I believe he would acknowledged her too.

[SummerSphinx]

Robert acknowledged his bastard (Edric Storm) with Delena Florent, a highborn lady like Ashara Dayne. If Ashara and Robert had a daughter, I believe he would acknowledged her too.

IIRC Robert was already married to Cercei and didn't care what she thought when he conceived Edric. But at Herrenhall, he was engaged to Lyanna (whom he supposedly had feelings for). It would be far more awkward to acknowlede a child with Ashara. At least Mya Stone's mom was lowborn, but Ashara was not. If he still wanted the marriage, he might not acknowledge a child.

[hallam]

The father was Benjen Stark and the child died in the sack of Kings Landing which was the reason Ashara jumped from the tower.

The child would have been born at about the same time as Aegon.

Ned returns the greatsword Dawn to House Dayne and has Jon with him at the time.

[Ygrain]

Could be, because a maidenhead doesn't proove or disprove nothing. But in any case it isn't about the woman. If someone comes to a willing adult and says "Do you wanna have sex?" how it is his mistake what the other chose?

Because men and women are not equal in Westeros, and nor are the fallouts of their relationship. The woman bears all the consequences, whereas the man, ecpecially if in a position of power, just happily goes on whoring and destroying more lives. What would happen if Brandon + Barbrey became public knowledge? Lots of people would be pissed, perhaps some amends made, but at the end of the day, Brandon would still get a hot high-born chick to marry, would still become the lord of Winterfell and do as he pleased. Whereas Barbrey, do you think she would still become Lady Dustin?

[Ice Turtle]

I think Allyria being Ashara's daughter is possible. And the father certainly do not have to be a Stark. I also like the theory that Elia and Ashara switched babies. Which probably would fit more with timing of Ashara's suicide.

[Greymoon]

I think Allyria being Ashara's daughter is possible. And the father certainly do not have to be a Stark. I also like the theory that Elia and Ashara switched babies. Which probably would fit more with timing of Ashara's suicide.

Do you think that Elia had a still born girl? And that Ashara had a healthy boy with silver hair? If so, who would be the father of Ashara's child? Aerys? Rhaegar? A Velaryon? A random Lysene? Or does the silver hair come from the Dayne line?

[Ice Turtle]

Edric Dayne, the only Dayne we actually do meet in person has a pale blond hair and purple eyes. A child of Dayne has a good chance to be passed as a Targ. As for father Aerys would do, but maybe Oberyn. The most controversial option would be Arthur Dayne. If it really happened I doubt Rhaegar had any idea.