[book+show spoilets] Jon and Sansa

[mirthula]

It is a shame that jon and sansa have no scene together and have no emotional connect with one another. I mean as far as he audience is concerned sansa really has no relation with jon. bran and rickon were traveling to see jon but alas that could not be, arya kept her needle as a reminder of jon and winterfell, jon had his moments where he wanted to fight with robb worried about his younger brothers safety. but sansa and jon have no single scene where they have thought about each other, i am not sure the audience really cares if they meet or not, as far as the show is concerned sansa and jon were not close and she doesn't consider him her family. i hope if sansa is going to the wall ultimately i hope they show her atleast thinking about jon so that we know she cares about him and knows her brother would protect her as any big brother would.

i think it will be all the more tragic if sansa doesn't find out bran and rickon is alive from theon before jon dies. theon is too far gone to recollect the real truth, but sansa finds out first that jon has died it would be heartbreaking for her to know that she really has no family, her parents and her siblings all are dead.

[mirthula]

OP:

In GRRM original outline there is a setup between Jon, and Arya marrying, in the WOIAF Ned's father married his first cousin and so have others in the Stark line.

i don't think we will be seeing any more incest all these ships of sansa/jon, jon/arya, the very popular jon/dany is not happening.

we can pretty much guarantee that jon won't marry any of his family, if he marries at all. i have a feeling he will be released from the nights watch as LC, become some sort of a king for the wildlings plus someone who watches over the restoration of the nights watch. jon will become very powerful in the north, we will be left to assume he will marry someday and have children after he is legitimized as stark. that is my happy ending for jon for him to be legitimized as stark i don't care if he is a secret targ, jon is more stark than anyone else he deserved that respect.

[Grail King]

i don't think we will be seeing any more incest all these ships of sansa/jon, jon/arya, the very popular jon/dany is not happening.

we can pretty much guarantee that jon won't marry any of his family, if he marries at all. i have a feeling he will be released from the nights watch as LC, become some sort of a king for the wildlings plus someone who watches over the restoration of the nights watch. jon will become very powerful in the north, we will be left to assume he will marry someday and have children after he is legitimized as stark. that is my happy ending for jon for him to be legitimized as stark i don't care if he is a secret targ, jon is more stark than anyone else he deserved that respect.

Well we don't know what D & D are going to do, they have an outline and GRRM info and per GRRM works the Starks do marry first cousins and since Sansa and Jon are the most distant emotion wise it could happen.

Just putting it out there since GRRM and OP brought it up.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Who is Val? Another throwaway who is going to die in tWoW? Or maybe they combined her with Tormund. (/sarc)

Ygritte, Mel, Sansa. Three is a magic number.

Ros, Ygritte, Mel in the show

No such pattern exists in the books. He had 1 redheaded girlfriend. He wouldn't touch Mel with a barge pole. He knows she's shady.

I honestly just feel like people try to discount Jon and Sansa's relationship having any future or themeatic significance because apparently Jon can't have any connection with Arya or Sansa without undermining the other, no matter how different they are. I love the Arya and Jon relationship and think it will be important some capacity later on, but I also agree with the essay's general point (yes, I agree there are some errors in it and quotes pulled out of context) that there has been a clear thematic contrast set up between Jon and Sansa that suggests their relationship will take on some significance as well.

I think both the books and the show have effectively set up the Stark family as a unit. Most of them dont even talk to each other, but the family is the most beloved in the series. I think Jon going to rescue any of his siblings from being at Winterfell with the people who killed Robb would carry a lot of impact.

...So I think the Pink Letter is in. Truly I think all that needs to be set up there is Jon hating the Boltons for betraying the Starks and killing Robb and silently hoping Stannis wins. Check and check. Like they've gone out of the way to establish Jon's inner conflict over his hatred of the Boltons and his duty to the NW. No one's gonna see him get pissed at the Pink letter and think "why does he all of a sudden care about Sansa??". All that stuff with Alys Karstark and Mance isn't really necessary imo. On the show, while not actively participating, he is clearly emotionally invested and conflicted over the Northern stuff, which is enough.

Because most of its parallels are generic and are shared by all the Stark kids. We know Jon felt cast aside by Sansa who made him feel different to his brothers and sisters. In her most recent chapters as a bastard Sansa is experiencing things Jon did to realise how shoddy his life in Winterfell would be to him. She's walking a mile in the shoes of people she cast aside and looked down on.

When they meet again there is no doubt they will have a better relationship but there is nothing to suggest anything more. GRRM has gone to great lengths to build the relationship between Arya and Jon since book 1. Like you say, there will be a pay off there. We don't know what it is. I don't think he's building to anything really profound between Sansa and Jon. Its more about Sansa and her attitude to her rank. This is the girl who said that she would be loved as Queen, 2 members of her own family don't trust her or particularly like her at the time.

Jon wouldn't leave the wall for anyone, as we saw with Robb. GRRM told us Robb was second in his affections to Arya. It was Arya that got him to leave. I think anyone saying he would leave for any family member are really discounting a relationship GRRM has been setting up for 5 novels. Its about how Jon's connection to Arya, its not about Sansa. Sansa doesn't come in to it. In the show, his hate of the Boltons stems from their betrayal of Robb but he still doesn't leave. Even knowing Sansa is married to Ramsey, even Littlefinger doesn't know what Ramsey does, why should Jon unless he out and out admits it? Sansa married a Lannister, her family's enemy, does Jon even know or care. Now its a Bolton and we expect different action?

OP:

In GRRM original outline there is a setup between Jon, and Arya marrying, in the WOIAF Ned's father married his first cousin and so have others in the Stark line.

Notice that nothing in that is about Sansa? Its really frustrating how sometimes people just assume Arya is going to have everything taken from her and given to Sansa. Sansa's got her own story. She is not getting Arya's.

[lojzelote]

I'd love it if GRRM let Jon truly be Ned's biological son and then hook him up with Sansa or Arya anyway. :lol: At least it would be honest, no cheap excuses included. Jon and Sansa in particular would be very funny either way if you take into condideration that Sansa's supposed to bear a strong physical resemblance to Catelyn and Jon to Ned. Imagine them having sex when they are in their 30s, trying to supress the thoughts if their lord father and lady mother/father's cold wife had looked like that during the act, too. I'm sure they'd feel very comfortable, lol.

Anyway, I've seen some post claim that Iwan Rheon allegedly said his ending will be ambiguous. Doesn't anybody know the source? I've looked for it, but couldn't find anything.

[Grail King]

Ros, Ygritte, Mel in the show

No such pattern exists in the books. He had 1 redheaded girlfriend. He wouldn't touch Mel with a barge pole. He knows she's shady.

Because most of its parallels are generic and are shared by all the Stark kids. We know Jon felt cast aside by Sansa who made him feel different to his brothers and sisters. In her most recent chapters as a bastard Sansa is experiencing things Jon did to realise how shoddy his life in Winterfell would be to him. She's walking a mile in the shoes of people she cast aside and looked down on.

When they meet again there is no doubt they will have a better relationship but there is nothing to suggest anything more. GRRM has gone to great lengths to build the relationship between Arya and Jon since book 1. Like you say, there will be a pay off there. We don't know what it is. I don't think he's building to anything really profound between Sansa and Jon. Its more about Sansa and her attitude to her rank. This is the girl who said that she would be loved as Queen, 2 members of her own family don't trust her or particularly like her at the time.

Jon wouldn't leave the wall for anyone, as we saw with Robb. GRRM told us Robb was second in his affections to Arya. It was Arya that got him to leave. I think anyone saying he would leave for any family member are really discounting a relationship GRRM has been setting up for 5 novels. Its about how Jon's connection to Arya, its not about Sansa. Sansa doesn't come in to it. In the show, his hate of the Boltons stems from their betrayal of Robb but he still doesn't leave. Even knowing Sansa is married to Ramsey, even Littlefinger doesn't know what Ramsey does, why should Jon unless he out and out admits it? Sansa married a Lannister, her family's enemy, does Jon even know or care. Now its a Bolton and we expect different action?

Notice that nothing in that is about Sansa? Its really frustrating how sometimes people just assume Arya is going to have everything taken from her and given to Sansa. Sansa's got her own story. She is not getting Arya's.

This has nothing to do with the books, D & D change a lot, what makes you think they won't do this?

[Lord Damian]

In the books, TWOW I started a post asking if Sansa was Nisa Nisa to Jon's Azor Ahai. I do not know if the show will go into those historical figures and them or some other people or none at all as the story's contemporary personas. I would think that once the cousin thing is revealed, it is a likely scenario if there is to be a love match for either of them at this point foreward. However, this is HBO and almost nothing makes sense anymore other than Tyrion is their hero and Dany their heroine. All others are expendable.

[Ingelheim]

People actually ship this shit?

There are many fanfics about them, yes.

I don't think Jon will have any love interest at the end, except, maybe, Val, but I wouldn't mind if Sansa and him end up together, as long as Martin builds that up properly. The famous essay, although with a few mistakes, clearly shows a conection between them.

[lojzelote]

There are many fanfics about them, yes.

I don't think Jon will have any love interest at the end, except, maybe, Val, but I wouldn't mind if Sansa and him end up together, as long as Martin builds that up properly. The famous essay, although with a few mistakes, clearly shows a conection between them.

A few mistakes and lots of cooking with plain water, imho. YMMV.

[Roxane De]

SansaxJon will not happen in the show because people will find it gross. When it comes to Arya it would be even worse. SansaxJon in the books might make a bit more sense though but I don't really see a reason why it would happen.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

This is not true.

In the show, Sansa does not have HER OWN STORY. The vale arc is cut.She is not going to marry Harry either.

She has replaced Arya in that sense.

That is why Sansa in WF is such a bad idea. Because now it will affect the Jon Snow/Arya dynamic too.

Jon would only leave the wall for Arya in the BOOKS. I completely agree with you in that.

But in the show, when he hears that Sansa is at WF and being raped & tortured By Ramsay, the only logical conclusion is that Jon will have to go & save Sansa instead of Arya. In that sense Sansa will get Aryas story. It is going to happen and then he will get stabbed by Olly.

Does this tarnish the Jon / Arya dynamic? Of course it does. And the showrunners so not care. For them needle is just an instrument of revenge.

How has she replaced Arya in that sense? Arya is not Jeyne Poole. Sansa isn't in Braavos.

It doesn't necessarily affect the Jon/Arya relationship at all, he may never find out.

How is Jon going to hear about marital rape? Theon? Littlefinger didn't even know who Ramsey was and he was happily flaying folk openly. If Jon does go based on a pink letter and Sansa is in it, it would seem that they will have Robb be the actual catalyst. They have Sansa but they killed Robb. Its that relationship the writers have focused on. We have Jon's reaction to Robb's death but not to Arya's supposed death. Stannis comes to him talking about Robb. It really lacks the heart and soul of the story GRRM wrote.

This has nothing to do with the books, D & D change a lot, what makes you think they won't do this?

I still have a smidge of faith they aren't absolutely clueless as to fundamentally misunderstand main characters? Also, they cut all the supporting emotional trauma leading up to the pink letter which makes the letter itself lose impact.

In the books, TWOW I started a post asking if Sansa was Nisa Nisa to Jon's Azor Ahai. I do not know if the show will go into those historical figures and them or some other people or none at all as the story's contemporary personas. I would think that once the cousin thing is revealed, it is a likely scenario if there is to be a love match for either of them at this point foreward. However, this is HBO and almost nothing makes sense anymore other than Tyrion is their hero and Dany their heroine. All others are expendable.

The books and show will reach the same conclusion. They've said that. If its not looking likely in the books, it will not happen in the show. Especially as Nissa Nissa hasn't even come up yet.

A few mistakes and lots of cooking with plain water, imho. YMMV.

Is this the essay with the starting argument 'Both have had their dreams torn apart by reality' on Tumblr? If it is, its abysmal.

[Stonehearted Snake]

Anyway, I've seen some post claim that Iwan Rheon allegedly said his ending will be ambiguous. Doesn't anybody know the source? I've looked for it, but couldn't find anything.

I haven't read or seen that but Sophie did say that about her own storyline. IIRC she said it was "the most ambiguous thing ever" (I might be imputing the way she usually talks in hyperbole to this statement though). I'll see if I can find it.

ETA: Here it is: http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-premiere-running-time-revealed-cast-talks-moving-without-books/. She says it specifically about her own character though (and does say "most...ever"!)

Can't find anything similar for Iwan though he does have an interview where he talks about hoping Ramsay gets an awful death and that he doesn't know if he is in season 6 here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/11499178/10-things-we-learnt-about-Ramsay-Snow-actor-Iwan-Rheon.html

It's really hard to search for anything about them right now since there are so many articles about "the scene."

[MadMouse@theTOJ]

There are many fanfics about them, yes.

I don't think Jon will have any love interest at the end, except, maybe, Val, but I wouldn't mind if Sansa and him end up together, as long as Martin builds that up properly. The famous essay, although with a few mistakes, clearly shows a conection between them.

What essay? Link? If someone has fleshed out this theory with book evidence I'd like to read it

[Ingelheim]

What essay? Link? If someone has fleshed out this theory with book evidence I'd like to read it

I don't have the link, but I have the actual essay:

Sansa and Jon are, as far as I can tell, the only two Starks we never actually see interact in "present" time, and I don't think that's a coincidence from a literary standpoint. Everything we know of their past interactions comes via someone's reminiscences, so each is present in the other's life, but only in the past, never in the present. If Jon and Sansa meet in the future, it will doubtless come across to readers, in a very real way, as their very first meeting. Given the changes they've both undergone since their last meeting, that type of dynamic makes a certain amount of literary sense.

At the beginning of the series, Jon and Sansa seemed to sit at two opposite ends of the "Stark" children's cultural spectrum: Sansa is viewed by other characters as the most culturally "southern" of the children, (and she did initially seem to value "southern" courtly culture more than Northern culture), while Jon is viewed as the most culturally "Northern" of the Starks because he does not associate with southern-based institutions. Sansa was the Stark child most heavily and explicitly associated with the Faith of the Seven (she was always with her septa and she's the Stark child we see actually worshiping in the sept the most), while Jon was, at the beginning of the series, the most heavily associated with the Old Gods (given that he's the only one of the children who does not keep the Faith at all, not to mention Ghost's physical resemblance to a weirwood tree). Of the boys, Jon looks the most like Ned, while Sansa looks the most (out of the girls) like Catelyn---superficially, readers were encouraged, in the beginning, to associate Sansa and Jon with two different "regions", one with the South and one with the North.

In AGOT, Sansa and Jon occupied two very different, inherently non-overlapping worlds, and each person's understanding of how "the world" worked implicitly contained no real "place" for the other. By that I mean: Jon loved to fight, occupied a world in which fighting was the primary activity, and at the beginning had a great deal of difficulty interacting with people incapable of fighting. Look at his initial attitude toward Tyrion as well as the other Watch recruits, for example. Sansa is the one Stark child inherently incapable of fighting. She loved knitting, dancing, listening to singers, things that Jon had no use for---there was no room for Sansa in Jon's "world".

And Sansa's "world" contained no real "place" for Jon. She believed that knighthood and its accompanying (southern) chivalric code were the celebrated foundations of the world, and interpreted everything she saw through that cultural lens. Sansa knew her "world of chivalry" clearly viewed a bastard like Jon with suspicion, and because of that, I think Sansa probably had difficulty holding what seemed like two contradictory notions in her head: on the one hand, Jon was her brother, raised along with her and someone she never seemed to have any open conflicts with (unlike Arya, for example), and on the other hand, as the occupier of a "place" (bastard) that her social code condemned.

Now, I think it's worth noting that, although bastards have far lesser status in Westerosi society, there are "places" that can be carved out for them nonetheless, especially for paternally-acknowledged highborn bastards like Jon: we're told that bastards have served in the Kingsguard, a bastard (Sam Stone) serves as Master-At-Arms for House Royce of Runestone, a bastard ends up on Cersei's Small Council, at least one bastard served as Hand of the King, bastards freely join the Citadel and the Faith, etc., etc. But the issue with Jon is that Sansa, during AGOT, pretty clearly viewed knighthood as the central aspect of a man's worth. To "properly" occupy an honored place in "Sansa's world", Jon would have to first be a knight---not just a fighter, but an actual anointed knight, with all of the accompanying chivalric duties and responsibilities. (Look at how she thinks about Jory vs. how she thinks of Alyn in AGOT for an illustration of this.) Jon clearly had the fighting ability to attain knighthood, but unlike the other Starks, he has never kept the Seven at all. Knighthood was never a real possibility for him, as it was for Robb/Bran/Rickon, and presumably Sansa recognized that. I think it was difficult for her, especially early on, to really find a positive place for Jon in her understanding of the world, because he obviously couldn't be a septon, he couldn't join the Citadel (she would have recognized Jon wasn't exactly a bookworm), he was not in line for lordship, and he wasn't going to be a knight . . . but deep down she loved him nonetheless. So what was he? Where did he fit? How could she believe that knighthood and chivalry were the cornerstones of her society while simultaneously having a relationship with her non-knight bastard brother? I think this is why Sansa was, in the beginning, so very, very keen on pointing out Jon's exact relationship to her: her half-brother, a bastard. I think deep down Jon reallyconfused her, and this was her way of repeatedly clarifying to herself exactly who Jon was, of seeking a measure of control over a relationship that must have confuzzled her greatly, because its very existence contradicted her understanding of how the world was supposed to work.

Because while Jon and Sansa seemed to have the most "distant" relationship of the Stark children, it's pretty clear that Jon and Sansa did always love each other deep down. At the Wall, Jon mentioned that he missed Sansa. In ADWD, when he thinks of his lost siblings, right before he starts making plans to head to Winterfell, an image of Sansa brushing Lady's coat and singing is included. And even in AGOT, though Sansa rarely thought about Jon, when he did enter her thoughts we saw her seem to subconsciously want Jon to occupy a "positive" position in her understanding of the world order. We know from Jon that Sansa tried to teach him how to talk to girls, and though he mentions that she always called him her "half"-brother, there's no indication she tried to ignore or insult him, as other trueborn children might have done to a bastard. Her love for him was clearly not as "free" as Arya's love for him was---Sansa's world of chivalry and knighthood was a stumbling block to such a relationship, so it's easy for readers to overlook that she did love him. But even in AGOT, look at her reaction to Yoren:

She had always imagined the Night's Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night's Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon.

It's easy for readers to focus on her calling Jon her "bastard half brother" here, but if we look a little deeper, we notice how she also thinks to herself that the singers called the Watch "the black knights of the Wall". This is important because we know what a huge premium Sansa was putting on the idea of knighthood. Though religion seemingly prevents Jon from attaining knighthood, Sansa seemed to subconsciously look for a loophole there, and found one in the songs: her beloved singers could "grant" Jon a sort of honorary knighthood as a member of the Watch, so that is the route her thoughts took.

(And here we also see that Jon and Sansa, though superficially incredibly divergent, actually did look at the world in somewhat similar ways: each believed in the stories and songs, in honor---just different stories and different methods of honor. Each believed Benjen Stark was the prototypical Watchman. Jon believed all Watchmen were true and honorable, Sansa believed all knights were true and honorable. They each had specific ideas about how a specific place was supposed to be (the Wall and the South), and each of them had those ideas dashed by reality.)

As ASOIAF has progressed, we've seen Jon and Sansa slip into each other's roles, into each other's shoes. Jon becomes a Lord in ASOS, the same book in which Sansa ceases "being" a Lady. Robb disinherited Sansa at the same time (if the will says what many suspect it does) that he declared he wanted Jon to inherit. Becoming Alayne meant Sansa became a bastard, just like Jon, (and Jon could very well have been declared trueborn by Robb's will, which would mean that Sansa "became" a bastard and Jon "became" a trueborn Stark). Sansa began her story by loving singers, and has progressed toward disliking them (Marillion), while Jon initially seemed to have no use for singers . . . until he met the singer Mance Rayder. The Littlefinger/Lysa/Sansa dynamic played out almost as a vicious, over-the-top caricature of the Ned/Catelyn/Jon dynamic, with Sansa forced to literally stand in a (heavily skewed and sensationalized) version of Jon's shoes: Catelyn saw Jon as a living representation of another woman that she feared Ned loved more than her, and Lysa saw Sansa as a living representation of Catelyn, the woman that Lysa (rightly) feared Littlefinger loved more than her. Sansa seemed to have a much closer relationship with her mother than with her father (the exact opposite of Jon), but "Alayne" had a much "closer" relationship with Littlefinger than with Lysa---Sansa takes on with Littlefinger (a much skeevier version of) the relatively close father/child relationship that Jon had with Ned.

In her final chapter of AFFC, Sansa thinks to herself:

She had not thought of Jon in ages.

Or so Sansa tells herself. But I think there's a pretty good chance Sansa had actually been subconsciously thinking about Jon ever since she took on the Alayne Stone identity, because Sansa seems to be subconsciously patterning her "Alayne Stone" persona around Jon Snow. Sansa wants "Alayne" to be 14 years old, because "She had decided that Alayne Stone should be older than Sansa Stark". How old was Jon the last time Sansa saw him? 14 years old. She becomes worried at the prospect of dancing, because she seems to think that, for some unexplained reason, Alayne Stone might not enjoy dancing:

What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne...

Dancing is a pretty popular activity among women of all social classes and we know it's an activity very close to Sansa's heart, given that she was able to dance even at her own terrible wedding. But then in ADWD we discover that Jon does not appear to enjoy dancing---he refuses to dance with Alys, and Alys teases him about it when she brings up previous dances they were forced to dance together at Winterfell. If Sansa is subconsciously patterning "Alayne" on Jon Snow, then the fact that she's concerned that Alayne might not enjoy dancing makes quite a bit of sense, given that Jon's apparent dislike of dancing seems like the sort of thing Sansa would have picked up on. (In other words, if "Alayne" is patterned after Jon Snow, then the "real" reason Sansa fears Alayne won't like dancing is because Sansa knows Jon, on whom Alayne is molded, dislikes dancing.) Sansa thinks of Alayne as "bastard-brave", and since she barely knows Mya, what bastard does Sansa want Alayne to be as brave as? The obvious answer is Jon. And we see "Alayne" take on the type of caregiver role with Sweetrobin that the other Stark children (Bran and Arya, especially) seem to have associated with Jon, a role that Sansa herself seemed to take on with people like Beth Cassel and Jeyne Poole in Winterfell, but not with her own younger siblings.

He was only her half brother, but still... with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.

This is Sansa's thought process once Myranda Royce tells her about Jon's new position as Lord Commander of the Watch. If I'm correct and she's had Jon on the brain throughout AFFC, then this right here actually serves as a breakthrough for her, because Sansa goes from subconsciously longing for Jon to explicitly longing for Jon. And her thought process here is a pretty useful distillation of how far Sansa's come from AGOT, a semi-culmination of her ideological journey thus far: the main issues she once had with Jon---that he was a bastard, that he didn't "fit" the world of knights and chivalry that Sansa loved---have been essentially nullified. She starts out with the "old" Sansa's thought patterns ("He was only her half-brother"), but then she immediately (and pretty substantially) switches gears and starts openly longing to see Jon again, expressly thinking about how she's now a bastard too. The ideological barriers between them are basically gone.

Indeed, Sansa's entire arc had been bringing her closer and closer, ideologically, to the forces (winter, the North, and the Old Gods) represented by Jon. Sansa started out in AGOT preferring the Faith of the Seven, loving knighthood, loving the south, and losing her direwolf. By AFFC, we see her (far) more heavily associated with the Old Gods, favoring a non-knight (the Hound), and in an overall sense, switching gears from the epitomization of a "summer's child" to (IMO) someone on the path to becoming a "winter's child". Jon and Sansa become the Starks who we see most heavily drawing their inner strength from the cold and the snow: Jon mentions on more than one occasion that Ghost loves the snow, we see Jon frequently seeking out the cold (not the heat) at the Wall. We see Sansa literally drawing strength from the snow and the cold at the Eyrie. In the beginning of AGOT, Sansa wanted only to be a queen in the hot south. By AFFC, we see her building a scale model of Winterfell and drawing spiritual strength from the forces of winter.

Given the way Sansa seems to have been sliding more and more "toward" Jon as her arc has progressed---given the way her arc has been bringing her closer to him both ideologically and thematically---I wonder what implications Jon's stabbing (and the potential future that stabbing could bring for him) have for Sansa's future. Because the myth of Persephone looms large over both Jon and Sansa, and given what happened to Jon at the end of ADWD, I'm very, very curious what GRRM has in store for Sansa's arc, especially now that winter has come.

Both Jon and Sansa encounter "the pomegranate": Sansa is offered a literal pomegranate by Littlefinger, while Jon's rulership arc in ADWD was confronted at every turn by the Old Pomegranate, Bowen Marsh. The pomegranate, in Greek mythology, is what causes Persephone to become Queen of the Dead in perpetuity, and it's the reason winter comes in the first place---winter, in Greek mythology, being viewed as Demeter's grief at her separation from her daughter when Persephone descends every year to rule in the Underworld. The pomegrante causes Persephone to undertake two disparate roles, to become a creature of two separate worlds: she is both the Goddess of Spring and the Queen of the Underworld simultaneously (and concurrently), she rules in both the sunlight and the darkness. That idea---of a person moving between two contradictory spheres of existence, of a person gaining strength by a capacity to move between the darkness and the light---is a theme GRRM has played around with in other works, so there's an excellent chance he's exploring it in ASOIAF as well.

Both Jon and Sansa choose to reject "the pomegranate": Jon rejects the Old Pomegranate's demands for the future of the Watch, Sansa rejects Littlefinger's attempt to have her eat an actual pomegranate. But look at what happened to Jon in ADWD: he refused to acquiese to the Old Pomegranate's wishes, but the Old Pomegranate would not quietly accept rejection, choosing to physically attack him: there's been a lot of speculation on these boards that the attack on Jon will lead to some death-based transformation, that he (like Persephone) might find himself transformed (and possibly occupying a new leadership role) because of the Old Pomegranate. GRRM apparently had some Sansa chapters prepared for ADWD, but he pushed them back to TWOW. I'm very curious about what those chapters contained.

Because winter has now come, and in winter, Persephone rules over the dead. Sansa's arc has tracked Persephone in some pretty substantial ways: at the beginning of AGOT, when summer was in swing, she was the Stark most heavily associated with the warmth and frivolity of the South, just as Persephone was the flower-loving Goddess of Spring; Sansa was forced to marry, against her will, a man heavily associated with worldly wealth (in Greek mythology, Hades is associated with wealth because gold, silver, and jewels are drawn from beneath the ground, and Hades of course rules the Underworld). As winter approaches, Sansa loses her childlike innocence and naivete. And winter has now hit Westeros, and will presumably hit with a vengeance during TWOW---so what will Sansa become in the winter? Where winter is a time of imprisonment for Persephone, with spring/summer freeing her to walk the warm world above, it seems that summer was a time of imprisonment for Sansa, and winter might end up freeing her. And the story of Persephone ends with Persephone holdingdominion over the deadduring the winter. This might be a hint toward our pomegranate-associated characters' future, especially given the heavy associations both Jon and Sansa have with the living dead. (With Jon, those associations are obvious---he's a living man who wears black, his direwolf is named Ghost, he's fighting wights. With Sansa, the associations are less obvious but no less profound: Sansa's direwolf is dead (and since the Starks "are" their direwolves, Sansa is both alive and dead simultaneously because part of her is dead while part of her lives on), Littlefinger associates her with Catelyn reborn (and Catelyn has literally become the walking dead), not to mention the Hound: "The Hound is dead" we are told, and this "dead man" of course hated fire---I doubt it's a coincidence that this description of the Hound, as a walking dead man who hates fire, sounds quite a bit like a wight.)

And then there's this bit from AFFC:

All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

It's easy to forget sometimes that AFFC and ADWD were originally meant to be one super-book. Could Sansa have been "sensing" Jon's "death" here? Is the "ghost wolf" Ghost? Or is there a hint here for Sansa herself? She's become a Stone, and she's been told that a stone is a mountain's daughter. The cold winds are howling, and she thinks the cold winds are becoming a ghost wolf---is Sansa, she of the dead direwolf, en route to her own eventual death and resurrection?

[Ingelheim]

A few mistakes and lots of cooking with plain water, imho. YMMV.

Maybe. I still think it's a fantastic essay.

[Silverscream]

There are many fanfics about them, yes.

I don't think Jon will have any love interest at the end, except, maybe, Val, but I wouldn't mind if Sansa and him end up together, as long as Martin builds that up properly. The famous essay, although with a few mistakes, clearly shows a conection between them.

I can make connections between my cat and Shitmouth. Doesn't mean they actually mean anything. And anyway, so what if you can take quotes out of context to make a connection between two characters? Why do you consider the connections between Jon and Sansa more relevant and important than those between Jon and Dany? Or Jon and Jaime, Dany and Cersei, Jon and Arya, Arya and Sansa, etc? And as already stated, the connections mentioned in that meta are extremely poor. Dany has symbolism involving being given pomegranates too, jsyk. And it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever timeline wise to assume that the ghost wolf Sansa 'heard' had anything to do with Jon's stabbing. Catelyn also thinks the wind sounds like a wolf during her ascent up the Eyrie btw, but we're not going to use it to make Sansa/Cat parallels are we? And I think the most recent chapter proves the idea that Sansa subconsciously modeling Alayne after Jon is false. I'm not sure if Sansa thinks of Jon as bastard brave anyway considering she's shown to feel sorry for him twice. But when it comes to Alayne not knowing whether to dance, I don't know why the immediate assumption is to say it's because Jon hates dancing when we have Reek have a similar moment of a former dancer worrying about whether to dance or not in ADWD.

See? It's very easy to debunk the 'connections' in that essay, not to mention invoke more relevant parallels between other characters instead of trying to force them between Jon and Sansa. (But seriously, connections and parallels are the worst justifications for a ship).

Is this the essay with the starting argument 'Both have had their dreams torn apart by reality' on Tumblr? If it is, its abysmal.

lol you'd think by that measure they might as well ship Sansa with Bran. He's a dreamer who wanted to be a knight and had those dreams destroyed! And he wanted to turn into a wolf and save her and Arya and defended her when Robb was being mean. That's definitely better than anything Jon's done for her in five books thus far.

[Ingelheim]

I can make connections between my cat and Shitmouth. Doesn't mean they actually mean anything. And anyway, so what if you can take quotes out of context to make a connection between two characters? Why do you consider the connections between Jon and Sansa more relevant and important than those between Jon and Dany? Or Jon and Jaime, Dany and Cersei, Jon and Arya, Arya and Sansa, etc? And as already stated, the connections mentioned in that meta are extremely poor. Dany has symbolism involving being given pomegranates too, jsyk. And it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever timeline wise to assume that the ghost wolf Sansa 'heard' had anything to do with Jon's stabbing. Catelyn also thinks the wind sounds like a wolf during her ascent up the Eyrie btw, but we're not going to use it to make Sansa/Cat parallels are we? And I think the most recent chapter proves the idea that Sansa subconsciously modeling Alayne after Jon is false. I'm not sure if Sansa thinks of Jon as bastard brave anyway considering she's shown to feel sorry for him twice. But when it comes to Alayne not knowing whether to dance, I don't know why the immediate assumption is to say it's because Jon hates dancing when we have Reek have a similar moment of a former dancer worrying about whether to dance or not in ADWD.

See? It's very easy to debunk the 'connections' in that essay, not to mention invoke more relevant parallels between other characters instead of trying to force them between Jon and Sansa. (But seriously, connections and parallels are the worst justifications for a ship).

lol you'd think by that measure they might as well ship Sansa with Bran. He's a dreamer who wanted to be a knight and had those dreams destroyed! And he wanted to turn into a wolf and save her and Arya and defended her when Robb was being mean. That's definitely better than anything Jon's done for her in five books thus far.

You are not debunking anything, you are just giving your opinion. Which is exactly what an essay is for. It seems you disagree with it; that's completely fine.

That's why I said "as long as Martin does it well". Right now, it'd feel forced. With 2 more books...it can be easily done. Not that I think it will happen.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

If people are looking at Pomegranates they seem to be missing the big flashing light, they represent death the way George uses peaches to represent the zest of life. The Old Pomegranate stabbed Jon who will likely die and rise again. Littlefinger offering Sansa a pomegranate is not good, his plans may get her killed. She is unlikely to rise again, unless she takes a second life in a bird instinctively. Or it could represent Bowen and Littlefinger as dead men walking.

I think going further with that is jumping too far. GRRM may use the symbol, it doesn't mean he's using the story of Persephone so literally. You could say that the Starks as a whole are the Persephone of the story. Winter came when they 'died' and their return is the only hope for Spring. You could also argue the Stark women in general have a Persephone quality in that they have a habit of being carried off by kidnappers. Jon is the son of one of these kidnappings, Sansa has been kidnapped.

[voodooqueen126]

I honestly just feel like people try to discount Jon and Sansa's relationship having any future or themeatic significance because apparently Jon can't have any connection with Arya or Sansa without undermining the other, no matter how different they are. I love the Arya and Jon relationship and think it will be important some capacity later on, but I also agree with the essay's general point (yes, I agree there are some errors in it and quotes pulled out of context) that there has been a clear thematic contrast set up between Jon and Sansa that suggests their relationship will take on some significance as well.

I think both the books and the show have effectively set up the Stark family as a unit. Most of them dont even talk to each other, but the family is the most beloved in the series. I think Jon going to rescue any of his siblings from being at Winterfell with the people who killed Robb would carry a lot of impact.

...So I think the Pink Letter is in. Truly I think all that needs to be set up there is Jon hating the Boltons for betraying the Starks and killing Robb and silently hoping Stannis wins. Check and check. Like they've gone out of the way to establish Jon's inner conflict over his hatred of the Boltons and his duty to the NW. No one's gonna see him get pissed at the Pink letter and think "why does he all of a sudden care about Sansa??". All that stuff with Alys Karstark and Mance isn't really necessary imo. On the show, while not actively participating, he is clearly emotionally invested and conflicted over the Northern stuff, which is enough.

I believe GRRM initially created Sansa because "not all family's get along".

Remember that the original draft was even less flattering to Sansa.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

I don't know if Jon and Sansa's relationship is strong enough for him to abandon his vows to save her. I'd like to think it is if he knows what kind of person Ramsey was (though if he doesn't, then I see significantly less motivation). It's pretty obvious that they are not as close as Arya and Jon, or even as close as Jon and Robb, but I think there's a difference between wanting to get vengeance (as whenever he might've been tempted to leave CB for Robb) vs. saving your sibling from being flayed/raped/brutalized etc.

As I said, of course, I don't know if Jon would (certainly in the books) leave were it Sansa in Arya's place, but if he does something in showverse then I could personally accept it as Jon just being decent enough to care about any member of his family (even distant ones) being victimized only a few days ride away (well in the show it's gotta be like five seconds if he could find LF's teleporter).