The Book of the New Sun First Read and Re-read project [spoilers]

[felice]

3 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I am hoping that this thread will continue on through New Sun to Short Sun and Long Sun eventually.

Long Sun goes before Short Sun, doesn't it?

[Darth Richard II]

23 minutes ago, felice said:

Long Sun goes before Short Sun, doesn't it?

It does.

[Iskaral Pust]

Stupid United Airlines wifi are my post.  

What happens at the Piteous Gate?  Severian sees mounted lancers killing civilians, causing the crowd to press back into the gate, but then says it was a dream. 

Who are Jonas and Hethor?  Both seem to know Severian already, Hethor calls him master as a specific rather than general honorific, and Jonas is an interstellar sailor, despite Severian being slow to realize.  

[BookWyrm2]

14 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I am hoping that this thread will continue on through New Sun to Short Sun and Long Sun eventually. 

I'm definitely in if it happens. 

My copy of Plan[e]t Engineering just arrived and it looks really cool. Lots of stuff in there to add to the New Sun conversation. Gene Wolfe even made a map of the Commonwealth, which has Nessus located on the Western coast of a continent (which was surprising to me, I thought it was Buenos Aires). Agh! So excited

[matt b]

3 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Who are Jonas and Hethor?  Both seem to know Severian already, Hethor calls him master as a specific rather than general honorific, and Jonas is an interstellar sailor, despite Severian being slow to realize.  

Actually, both Jonas and Hethor are sailors. Note that from Chapter XXXV Hethor when he says, "Long I signed on the silver-sailed ships, the hundred-masted whose masts reached out to touch the st-st-stars..." Beyond that, Hethor is one of the execution groupies Severian meets outside Agilus' cell. We haven't otherwise seen him before, although Agia has mentioned him a few times.

As far as the gate goes, I believe there was just some sort of accident that clogged the roadway. A wheel came of a cart or one got overturned or something. This led to panic, which led to Dorcas getting hit in the face with a lash accidentally. Next thing you know, everybody's separated from each other and Severian's been marching down the road with Jonas as book 2 starts. 

2 hours ago, BookWyrm2 said:

 Gene Wolfe even made a map of the Commonwealth, which has Nessus located on the Western coast of a continent (which was surprising to me, I thought it was Buenos Aires). Agh! So excited

Keep in mind just how far into the future this story is set. A few thousand (tens of thousands? Hundreds?) years of erosion and tectonic movement can do a lot to the shape of a continent.

[Fragile Bird]

Chapter XXXII, The Play

As Severian and Dorcas continue walking away from the city, toward the wall, they discuss the vision of the great building over the city they saw.  After walking and talking for hours, he realizes he loves Dorcas in a way he had never loved another human being, not because he loved Thecla less, "rather by loving Dorcas I loved Thecla more, because Dorcas was another self (as Thecla was yet to become in a fashion as terrible as the other was beautiful), and if I loved Thecla, Dorcas loved her also".

They wonder if it was a vision only meant for themselves, or if millions in the city saw it as well.  Dorcas does not know if she has ever seen a vision, all she can remember was being in the water.  Everything before that is like a vision shattered to pieces.

Severian asks her if she knows of the key to the universe, the idea that the universe has a secret key, that might be just a single word.  He tells her about the brown book that Thecla had been reading, that he took with him.  The brown book is a collection of the myths of the past.  It contains a list of words that people have said were The Secret.  The book also says everything, whatever happens, has three meanings, the practical meaning, the soothsayer's meaning and the transsubstantial meaning.  "The book is saying that everything is a sign".

It's become dark, and Dorcas hears a sound that frightens her.  They see a light, and Severian realizes it's a lantern, and the sound is a drum.  In a clearing is a platform, surrounded by a crowd.  On the platform are Dr. Talos and Baldanders, beating a drum, and a woman, performing their play.  Talos greets the two of them as Death and Innocence come to join them.  The crowd reacts to Severian, muttering, and an old crone spits in her hand and makes the forked finger sign to ward off evil.

The play consists of a lot of noise and explosions, and fighting and 'torture'.  Before the end, Talos calls for everyone on the stage to freeze, and he passes his hat around the audience asking for generous offerings of payment for the entertainment.  The audience is very caught up in the play, crying out and shrieking in shock when Baldanders, the giant, breaks free from his chains, his mouth foaming and his face full of madness.

The crowd runs away in fear, and Dr. Talos asks Severian and Dorcas to help him search the field for things they would have dropped in their need to escape from the mad Baldanders.  They find a basket of yams, some sugar cane and a pair of squabs.  Jolenta wants to head off to an inn to sleep, since she is very tired, but Dr. Talos thinks it would be a waste of money, and they will sleep under the stars.

[BookWyrm2]

 

Quote

Keep in mind just how far into the future this story is set. A few thousand (tens of thousands? Hundreds?) years of erosion and tectonic movement can do a lot to the shape of a continent.

But for the life of me I can't find any evidence of Nessus actually being Buenos Aires, though I've heard this for years (right now my Google-fu is failing me pretty badly). Why, for example, should the possibility that geography has changed, point specifically towards Nessus being Buenos Aires as opposed to anywhere else in South America?

I'm not sure where this is all coming from, as this reread has been a slow realization that Wolfe probably doesn't do many (if any) one-to-one comparisons (i.e. Buenos Aires being Nessus etc.) of Earth vs Urth. I wonder if it's even important at all if he does have some in the books.

 

[Fragile Bird]

Chapter XXXIII, Five Legs

Everyone is down on the grass, sleeping, except for Dr. Talos, who either sits in a chair they use as the throne of the autarch, or is up and pacing around the fire.  Severian notices every emotion imaginable crosses his vulpine face.  Severian wishes he would either sleep or go somewhere, because he wants to look at the Claw.  Finally Talos takes his cane and starts decapitating the heads of wildflowers.  As he walks away, Severian slips out the jewel.  It burns in the night, and Severian is worried Talos will see it.  He tries looking through it, and then snatches it away, because instead of seeing the grass and the sleepers he sees a dance of sparks, slashed by a scimitar blade.

Severian once again thinks about Master Malrubius.  He must have been a very young child when he died.  He remembers when Master Palaemon succeeded him, and how unreal it was because everyone knew Master Malrubius was lying on his bed in his room.  Sick torturers were never taken to the healers, because it was rumoured old scores were settled at the Tower of Healing.

Severian thinks again about the art of being a carnifex, how so many parties have to be satisfied, the authorities who want to see the client dead, those who gave him money to make sure the client suffered, or didn't suffer, and the carnifex himself.  He remembers a story about one master who was paid by one side to make the client suffer, and by another side to make sure he didn't suffer, and how the master positioned himself and managed to satisfy both sides.

He remembers the last time he slept by Baldanders he had a dream, and he dreams again this night.  He senses that at times during his dream Dr. Talos was nearby, in his chair, and at other times he was not there.

Once again he dreams that he hears pattering of animal feet, Triskele, who sniffs at his clothes and his face, then lies down beside him, his spine pressed against his body.  Then he hears more steps, and again he recognizes the steps as those of Master Malrubius.  The Master has his usual dusty cloak on.  he sits down, and asks Severian:  "Name for me the seven principles of governance".

They are:  Attachment to the person of the monarch.  Attachment to a bloodline or other sequence of succession.  Attachment to the royal state.  Attachment to a code legitimizing the governing state.  Attachment to the law only.  Attachment to a greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.   Attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the body of electors. other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.

The Master asks him what is the earliest form and which the highest, and Severian says they are listed in order, the last being the highest.  He then asks Severian what his own attachment was to the Divine Entity, and he says it's the first, to the person of the monarch, because there is no succession.

And finally the Master says the animal beside him would die for him, and asks what form of attachment that is to him.  Severian says the first.

Then, there is no one there.  Severian sits up.  Malrubius and Triskele are gone, but his side is faintly warm.

[Fragile Bird]

Chapter XXXIV, Morning

Dr. Talos notes that Severian is awake.  Severian explains his dream of Triskele, and the fact that his side is warm.  Dr. Talos points out he was sleeping facing the fire.  He mentions a man, dressed like him.  Dr. Talos says no such man has been there, he would have seen him.  Severian volonteers to sit up and watch the properties, so that Dr. Talos can sleep.  The doctor hesitates, but then he lies down in Severian's place.

He sits and watches the fire, until finally Jolenta wakes, and asks if there is water she can wash herself with.  Severian tells her he thinks there's a stream nearby, and she goes to find it.  As he watches her leave, he thinks he has never seen such a perfectly beautiful woman, yet he's not attracted to her, except in the way a man is attracted to a woman in a painting.  He notes that she walks awkwardly.

When she returns, she realizes Severian doesn't recognize her.  She mentions there is a basket with some fruit that they can have for breakfast.  Severian notices she eats her grapes by swallowing them whole.  She thinks she will be happy in this job, and she gets a third of the money.  She tells him they were expecting him to show up and join them.

Dr. Talos sits up, and tells her she will now only get one quarter of the money, now that Severian and Dorcas are there.  Severian tells him he won't be staying, he must go back to the city and meet the Order of the Pelerines.  Dr. Talos tells him to stay with them until they get to the main road. 

Severian wakes Dorcas, and gives her an apple for her breakfast.  She offers him a bite, and he says he's eaten a pomegranate.  Dorcas says she should have known, from the stains on his face.  She thought he had been sucking blood all night.  He looks shocked, and she says, "well you did look like a black bat bending over me".

Baldanders wakes, and asks Dorcas who she is, he doesn't remember her.  He hasn't had any dreams.  He complements Dorcas on her memory, and says he wished he could recall everything.

Dr. Talos produces the money box and divides up the money among Jolenta, Dorcas, Severian and Baldander, taking no money for himself.  Severian and Dorcas are surprised.  If anything, Severian thought Baldander would have been left out, since he seems to be Dr. Talos' slave.  Dr. Talos tells them his pleasure comes from directing the play and the part he plays, all the reward he needs.  Yet previously the money was being split three ways.

Two orichalks are left, not enough to go round, and Dr. Talos asks who wants them.  To Severian's surprise, Dorcas takes them.  Only some dubious coins are left (they could be counterfeit, I guess) and Dr. Talos says he'll hand them out, but to be careful where they used them.

They are interrupted by a man dressed in shabby grey clothing approaching them.

[Jo498]

1 hour ago, BookWyrm2 said:

But for the life of me I can't find any evidence of Nessus actually being Buenos Aires, though I've heard this for years (right now my Google-fu is failing me pretty badly). Why, for example, should the possibility that geography has changed, point specifically towards Nessus being Buenos Aires as opposed to anywhere else in South America?

I'm not sure where this is all coming from, as this reread has been a slow realization that Wolfe probably doesn't do many (if any) one-to-one comparisons (i.e. Buenos Aires being Nessus etc.) of Earth vs Urth. I wonder if it's even important at all if he does have some in the books.

I do no think it is important. But I missed the information about a west coast and almost everything else fits fairly well to a location like Buenos Aires. It's clearly a southern hemisphere, there is a major river going roughly north-south. There are pampas around, there is a jungle much further north. There are mountains to the north/ne/nw? (but here it became somewhat problematic because the relation of mountains and coast(s) did not seem to fit properly).

But in a world where the moon has been terraformed and is covered with forests, a lot of geographic changes might be possible. Stil, there does not seem to be enough space in the west coast of South America between coast and mountains for the landscapes described. And Africa does not fit at all.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

13 hours ago, matt b said:

Actually, both Jonas and Hethor are sailors. Note that from Chapter XXXV Hethor when he says, "Long I signed on the silver-sailed ships, the hundred-masted whose masts reached out to touch the st-st-stars..." Beyond that, Hethor is one of the execution groupies Severian meets outside Agilus' cell. We haven't otherwise seen him before, although Agia has mentioned him a few times.

As far as the gate goes, I believe there was just some sort of accident that clogged the roadway. A wheel came of a cart or one got overturned or something. This led to panic, which led to Dorcas getting hit in the face with a lash accidentally. Next thing you know, everybody's separated from each other and Severian's been marching down the road with Jonas as book 2 starts. 

Keep in mind just how far into the future this story is set. A few thousand (tens of thousands? Hundreds?) years of erosion and tectonic movement can do a lot to the shape of a continent.

Is it this map that's being discussed?: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/gifbin/p4/sunmaplg.jpg

Looks to me like the sea level has dropped as Urth has grown colder with the waning of the Sun, and perhaps also been shifted upward by tectonic forces (before these also diminished in power). This would place Nessus somewhere west beyond what is currently Antofagasta in northern Chile, i.e. currently under the sea. The climate today in the Antofagasta region is very dry due to a combination of the cold Humboldt current and rainshadow form the Andes (it is home to the Atacama desert), but I can imagine that enough of these conditions have changed with the lowering of sea level and no doubt disruption of oceanic currents to give the temperate and relatively damp climate of Nessus.

[matt b]

7 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Chapter XXXIII, Five Legs

  Severian notices every emotion imaginable crosses his vulpine face. 

Note the Wolfe specifically says "vulpine mask" here. There's some interesting hints about the nature of Dr. Taloes in these chapters.

 

 

[BookWyrm2]

2 hours ago, Gasp of Many Reeds said:

Is it this map that's being discussed?: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/gifbin/p4/sunmaplg.jpg

~ This is it. I'm only really giving it much credence because it was published by Wolfe himself

Also, in regards to Dr. Talos' play: has anyone figured out what it was based on? I just read an essay that sort of gave it all away but I'm still trying to dig up the clues. 

Spoiler

Apparently the play is based on a story/stories from Canog's Book of the New Sun which is apparently the fourth book Severian brought to Thecla in her cell. This book is apparently also the Book of the New Sun we're reading?

Meaning the play is based on a book the play is in?

I can only really imagine this actually being true if Canog's book and the one we're literally reading have some significant differences a la the telephone game or something.

 

[Wilbur]

Jolenta is the waitress from the inn where Dr. Talos and Baldlander met Severian previously, correct?

[Fragile Bird]

7 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Jolenta is the waitress from the inn where Dr. Talos and Baldlander met Severian previously, correct?

Yes.  Dr. Talos took her away when they split up after breakfast to fetch her things and to "enhance" her.

[Jo498]

36 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Jolenta is the waitress from the inn where Dr. Talos and Baldlander met Severian previously, correct?

Yes; this was fairly obvious to me at the first reading but Severian needs until the end of vol.2 to realize that.

Thanks for the map! This makes the travelling in the later books considerably clearer. It was fairly confusing if one assumed Buenos Aires and today's South America (both the mountains and the jungles are too far away, for one thing). Still, it is obviously a changed American continent.

[Iskaral Pust]

Odd info about Dr. Talos so far (from memory):

- wants to rebuild his ruined house, whose  foundation/cellar is ancient and still strong

- has Baldanders as a companion almost like Dr. Frankenstein 

- was denied use of Terminus Est

- can enhance Jolenta's appearance

- canny, manipulative, vulpine trickster

- face is decribed as a vulpine mask with many emotions/expressions

- is short (not an exultant or armiger)

- does not sleep much or at all

- has traveled extensively with his show and props

- intends to perform at the House Absolute

Others?

[Wilbur]

Some of the best of Dr. Talos:

- He extended a delicate, well-cared-for hand. “I am Dr. Talos.”

- What if we attempt to render you a rich gift, and you refuse it?” Dr. Talos leaned toward her as he said this, and it struck me that his face was not only that of a fox (a comparison that was perhaps too easy to make because his bristling reddish eyebrows and sharp nose suggested it at once) but that of a stuffed fox. I have heard those who dig for their livelihood say there is no land anywhere in which they can trench without turning up the shards of the past. No matter where the spade turns the soil, it uncovers broken pavements and corroding metal; and scholarswrite that the kind of sand that artists call polychrome (because flecks of every color are mixed with its whiteness) is actually not sand at all, but the glass of the past, now pounded to powder by aeons of tumbling in the clamorous sea. If there are layers of reality beneath the reality we see, even as there are layers of history beneath the ground we walk upon, then in one of those more profound realities, Dr. Talos’s face was a fox’s mask on a wall, and I marveled to see it turn and bend now toward the woman, achieving by those motions, which made expression and thought appear to play across it with the shadows of the nose and brows, an amazing and realistic appearance of vivacity. “Would you refuse it?” he asked again, and I shook myself as though waking.

- It was Dr. Talos and Baldanders; their presence seemed inevitable as soon as I had recognized them. So far as I knew, I had never seen the woman.

- Dr. Talos threw wide his arms to embrace the universe. “While here, my dear, beneath stars that are the personal and cherished property of the Increate, we have all anyone could wish for the most salubrious rest.

- Dr. Talos whispered to Jolenta, “I think the angel of agony there, and your understudy, will remain with us a while longer.”

(As much as I treasure my old, slightly mouldering paperbacks, smelling faintly of musty bookstores, the ebook is a very useful thing for a re-read.)

I particularly like the phrase, "angel of agony".  Sometimes Wolfe is just sublime.

[Wilbur]

One of my frustrations with these books is just how many layers of un-realiability there are with this narrator.  Jolenta is a perfect case.

One layer of of un-realiability is that of lying versus truth.  Perhaps his report, in the form of the final text, is just not true because Severian is trying to hide something or make himself look better than he is, or some such.

Another layer of un-realiability might be Severian's lack of experience or ineptitude or self-centered-ness, I don't know which.  Perhaps Young Severian, or Severian v1.0, really can't remember Jolenta as the waitress from the inn earlier.  This may be because he has limited experience with women, or because Dr. Talos' Elective Surgery and Acting School has altered her so totally, or because he just has Teenager Disease and doesn't notice others not in his immediate circle.

And separating these two possibilities of un-realiability is almost impossible, at least for me.  I am never sure whether the reported narrative is warped because of intent or ignorance.  And because I don't know the motivation for the inaccuracy of the story, it is hard for me to tease out the real story.

Furthermore, Severian's actions to come from this point in the re-read in this book and the next few are difficult to judge, because I can't tell whether he actually does everything he says he does, and if he does, I don't know why he does them.  And since some of the things he does are either nonsensical decisions in relation to what I would have done, or else unethical actions in terms of my worldview, I would like to better understand - does he do that?  And if so, why?  And what is Wolfe trying to say by having him do this stuff?

[Fragile Bird]

To be fair to Severian, Jolenta is described this way when we first meet her in Chapter XVI, The Rag Shop:

 

Quote

The waitress, a thin young woman with straggling hair, came carrying a bowl of gruel for Baldanders, bread and fruit for me, and a pastry for Dr. Talos.  "What an attractive girl!" he said.

 

After he offers her a job with his company, she says

 

Quote

"Becoming an actress won't make me beautiful."

"I will make you beautiful because we require you as an actress.  It is one of my powers."  He stood up. "Now or not at all.  Will you come?"

The waitress rose too, still looking at his face.  "I have to go to my room..."

"What do you own but dross?  I must cast the glamour and teach you your lines, all in a day.  I will not wait."

Of course, she is beautiful when Severian meets her again, so beautiful he doesn't recognize her.  I am assuming Dr. Talos called her an attractive girl just to lure her into his control.  And if he has cast a glamour on her (something I missed when I first read it, I was thinking he was going to put her in make-up and fancy dress), how would Severian recognize her?