Astronomy of Planetos: The Solar Cycle and the Three Attempts to Forge Lightbringer

[Mithras]

Everyone is talking about the swords right now.

That is because of S05E08 Hardhome :D

[LmL]

I don't believe in that claim of the Daynes. If they have such a controversial ancestor whose father was erased from memory, they might have produced a false history to cover it.

I don't think there's a conflict here. The LN ended the Dawn Age / Age of Heroes (the distinction between the AoH and DA is arbitrary), some time between 8-12,000 years ago. I mean, nobody knows really. So when we 8,000 in one place and 10,000 in another, they both mean "Dawn Age," and that's about it. Starks and Daynes seem to both go back to the LN / Dawn Age. That's all we can really infer,

[LmL]

That is because of S05E08 Hardhome :D

Yeah I know it. Don't get my thread shut down, Mithras. We can't talk about D&D's fanfic in this forum, you know that. Which is fine with me anyway, since it's just fanfic at this point, and not even particularly good fanfic. But yeah, everyone is thing about V Steel and Dragonsteel and all the rest, so I am going to try to get my swords essay finished next. There's a lot, it's kind of a motherfucker. It's also kind of the one that I have been leading up to, so I want to get it right. Perhaps before the season finale I'll get it up.

[Scorpion92]

LML, amazing theories you have put there,I have read all of them for the last 2 days and I really think you are on the right track of uncovering future events. I always had a theory about Jon turning to the dark side AND becoming the hero during a Long NIght 2.0. I also had a suspicion that Dany is not going to survive the series and die in childbirth with Jon's child, and your theories just solidify my claims. I believe there is a line in the books where both Jon and Dany are contemplating about having kids (in Dany's case AFTER Rhaego and Drogo's death). I also always suspected Drogon is Jon's ultimate dragon. And I believe maybe Dany's "mount to love" is Ghost? It is just too coincidental that both Ghost and Drogon have red eyes to not link Jon and Dany in potentially swapping their pets lol.

On the topic of Lightbringer,the reason I believe Jaime is a Targ and not Tyrion (plus Viserion's color scheme just screams Jaime as Kingsguard),is because I believe he is going to wield Oathkeeper (literal Lightbringer) after he tempers it with Lady Stoneheart (water), Cersei (lion) and Brienne (Nissa Nissa). Any textual references that might support this line of thinking? And after he has this sword he is going to fight Jon,and ultimately Jaime fails because not wanting to hurt Rhaegar's kid as in his dream about his half-brother?

I also really want to know your opinions on Dawn and who is going to wield it in the final book,because the last I remember Darkstar has it. Will Jon somehow get it for the final battle maybe to fight Jaime and Oathkeeper?

Just amazing work and keep it up,I am a big supporter LML!

[LmL]

LML, amazing theories you have put there,I have read all of them for the last 2 days and I really think you are on the right track of uncovering future events. I always had a theory about Jon turning to the dark side AND becoming the hero during a Long NIght 2.0. I also had a suspicion that Dany is not going to survive the series and die in childbirth with Jon's child, and your theories just solidify my claims. I believe there is a line in the books where both Jon and Dany are contemplating about having kids (in Dany's case AFTER Rhaego and Drogo's death). I also always suspected Drogon is Jon's ultimate dragon. And I believe maybe Dany's "mount to love" is Ghost? It is just too coincidental that both Ghost and Drogon have red eyes to not link Jon and Dany in potentially swapping their pets lol.

On the topic of Lightbringer,the reason I believe Jaime is a Targ and not Tyrion (plus Viserion's color scheme just screams Jaime as Kingsguard),is because I believe he is going to wield Oathkeeper (literal Lightbringer) after he tempers it with Lady Stoneheart (water), Cersei (lion) and Brienne (Nissa Nissa). Any textual references that might support this line of thinking? And after he has this sword he is going to fight Jon,and ultimately Jaime fails because not wanting to hurt Rhaegar's kid as in his dream about his half-brother?

I also really want to know your opinions on Dawn and who is going to wield it in the final book,because the last I remember Darkstar has it. Will Jon somehow get it for the final battle maybe to fight Jaime and Oathkeeper?

Just amazing work and keep it up,I am a big supporter LML!

Hey Scorpion92, thanks a lot for the support. It means a great deal - you know how the internet is. Even if 10 people are nice and one person is mean, sometimes that one sticks with you more. I do enjoy doing these for the sheer fun of it, but it fills me with wonderful feelings to know other people are enjoying the subject matter as much as I. George is the brilliant one here - we're all having a great time and feeling clever about ourselves just for unravelling small pieces of his grand design. I continue to be amazed at the density of ideas and concepts he is able to achieve through the constant use of symbolism and metaphor.

If you've read all my essays you know that I tend to stay away from trying to make predictions unless they are really smacking me in the face like some sort of flashing red light. I see where you're going with some of your ideas, and I see how you might like some parts of this astronomy pattern quite a bit. I think you may be right with the general concept of "dark heroes," which is kind of what we are exploring with Azor Ahai, and, as soon as I can get to him, the Night's King. I am not certain what Jon will be doing, exactly, but I have a range of ideas. He really seems to be someone who always does what he thinks is the right thing, and I think he has a very strong moral compass. Thus, it's hard for him to be too dark, apart from having to make tough decisions or whatever. Bran and Daenerys both have emotional tendencies which could get them in trouble. Jon mostly needs to grow up and continue to learn - he made the rights choices, mostly, but didn't sell them very well, for example - whereas Dany and Bran have this darker streak which they have to master. I don't think any of them will end up "the vilian" - I really am not into the Brantichrist stuff, I tend to trust Bloodraven's judgement. But who knows, Martin has the skill to pull off lots of things.

You know I think Oathkeeper is part of Lightbringer, although I think Brienne is already forging it. I'm not sure what is going to happen in that cave, but there is a lot of potential for stabbing people with that sword. I definitely don't think Brienne will be dying soon. She's way more important than most people think, imo. As for Jaime, he's definitely got some LH / AA imagery about him, but so does Davos as well as Jon and Dany. Even Sam. Arya.

What I think Martin has done here is more complex that first appears - he's made it possible to see more than one person as fulfilling the prophecy, which is surely intentional. Thus, it's possible to construct credible theories about multiple people being AA or the LH or whatever. That doesn't mean we don't have the clues to figure things out - I tend to think we do - but we probably have to keep our minds open and really investigate each person and each reference to Lightbringer and AA. I'm doing a thorough re-read right now (audiobook, so I guess "re-listen"), and I am stopping to take notes any time I hear anything about any of the subjects I am collecting notes on. Which means I am stopping it a lot of making a lot of notes. ;) I plan on getting to the Jaime stuff, but I'm in ACOK right now and his stuff is mostly ASOS / AFFC.

His weirwood dream is obviously a big deal, being one of the only times we see flaming swords in the series. I thought I had that one figured out, but I realize there is a bit more nuance there which I am still working on. Suffice to say, though, that scene is really important.

[LmL]

A general color symbolism question for everyone:

Iron is black. Steel is silver. Most things, when you burn them, they turn black. But iron, if you burn it enough, turns silver. That's an oversimplification of steel making, obviously, but the basic color transformations what i am looking at. There is a lot about white vs black things in ASOIAF, of course, and comets vs the dragon meteors seem to fit. The comet stone should be the pale stone which Dawn was made from, whereas the dragon meteors that showered on earth are actually pieces of moon rock, which we've seen is black.

The comet originally started out with a blue and white / silver tail, according to theory - white stone, white and blue tail. This looks like the sword Dawn.

Then the comet splits - and either gains the red color here, or remains blue and silver and gains the red color during the explosion. I think it's probably still blue and silver. In the AA myth, the sword is white hot when he stabs Nissa Nissa, and takes red flame after stabbing her. So, when one half of the comet hits the second moon, the other half of the comet must have absorbed some of the radiation of the explosion and turned red, I am guessing. This comet we see in the sky, then. might be a pale stone with a red tail. If Dawn lit up red, this would be Dawn. But I don't think Dawn does light up red...

The meteors of the exploded moon were black, and they fell to earth burning red in the atmosphere. This would be my idea of Lightbringer as pre-Valyrian steel, or more specifically, Ned's sword as Lightbringer. Black meters, red flame. One of these black meteors was the stone worshipped by the Bloodstone Emperor. If I am right that BSE = AA, and that's basically the premise of my entire thing here, then this sun-drinking black stone moon meter would have been used in the creation of Lightbringer.

This is the context in which I ask the question about the black iron and silver steel. I am interested in all inversions of the natural order. Fire usually brings light, and darkness is associated with cold. Yet we have all this talk of black fire and shadow fire, and all the icy shit in the story is luminescent (pale shadows vs black fire). Steel fits this inversion pattern - most things are black after being burnt, but steel does the opposite. This is the dichotomy of fire - it brings light while it lasts, but after, all is dead and black. Since I see George working hard to invert the fire = light and cold = dark patterns, the iron / steel color thing seems significant.

The black ice would be the ice that does not shine. The white fire (GEotD swords, Jaime and Brienne's sword, Dawn) brings the light. Pale shadows and black fire are unnatural, and therefore, magical.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Great analysis on the colors. Was there a question in there?

[LmL]

LOL, yes, just looking for general thoughts on the implications of black iron and silver steel in regards to the meters and swords. Just wondering if anyone had ideas about this. I feel like I am close to understanding something.

The iron link in a maester's chain is for ravenry, silver for healing, V steel for magic. I wonder if that might apply here. I have been seeing ravens used as metaphors for comets / meteors, so the idea of iron link= ravencraft makes sense in that light. The white raven is the one which heralds the change of the season; the comet is "the sword that slays the seasons," a similar concept. But the black ravens are messengers - and the comet is the red messenger as well.

I'm still trying to understand the nature of the swords and how it pertains to the two moons and comets vs meteors.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Well Valyrian Steel is like a mixture of the two colors. It's not full black, but it's not quite grey either. It could be the result of being half black and half silver. Maybe it goes back to the question of balance?

Ravens are used in the magic in the series, at least by skinchangers.

People with swords would equate the comets and meteors with swords, don't you think? The only things that can bring such destruction?

Afraid I don't have anything else. I have a cold and it's messing with my brainpower. But if I think of anything I'll let you know.

[LmL]

feel better :)

I'm tempted to make a bad blizzard / cold joke, but there's o need, really... ;)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

feel better :)

I'm tempted to make a bad blizzard / cold joke, but there's o need, really... ;)

Feel free. I love bad jokes, well...some of them. Nothing worse than a cold in the summer/almost summer.

And thanks. :)

[The Mother of The Others]

Recall that Jaime was knighted by Arthur and when he touched Jaimes shoulders with Dawn, he was cut. Dawn tasted the blood of Jaime. Was there a transfer of some malignant influence?

Oh, f**k. According to Old Nan, the Nights King did not know fear too and that was his downfall, same as the smiling knight.

The mingling of Jaime's blood and intertwining of his fate with the sword and the kinds of missions it's used for, so that a connection is established and they won't be Strangers when they cross paths again. Sword of the enemy' substance and he's training to resist its effects it'll put him up to greatness without putting him in the gutter hopefully.

Silver & Black is another thinly veiled shoutout to NFL fans. Raider Nation don't read that good nor does the team play all that well together as a team, so their team colors are disunited into separate metals that don't come together to form an effective Iron Curtain.

[Durran Durrandon]

LOL, yes, just looking for general thoughts on the implications of black iron and silver steel in regards to the meters and swords. Just wondering if anyone had ideas about this. I feel like I am close to understanding something.

The iron link in a maester's chain is for ravenry, silver for healing, V steel for magic. I wonder if that might apply here. I have been seeing ravens used as metaphors for comets / meteors, so the idea of iron link= ravencraft makes sense in that light. The white raven is the one which heralds the change of the season; the comet is "the sword that slays the seasons," a similar concept. But the black ravens are messengers - and the comet is the red messenger as well.

I'm still trying to understand the nature of the swords and how it pertains to the two moons and comets vs meteors.

Well allow me to muddy up the one comet, two comet, red comet, blue comet analysis, by reminding everyone of Dunk/Brienne's green comet, and the three forks of the trident, red, blue, and green.

[The Mother of The Others]

Consistent with nature magic standing against fire and ice as a third player that behaves as if it more genuinely cares and is our home team as living beings

[Scorpion92]

Posted this in another thread,so here it goes.Apologize if it was mentioned before.

The whole idea LmL (or was it?) suggested so many times that Lightbringer might be a person just made me think about Jon. If he is indeed the sword,then Lyanna and Rhaegar are Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai respectively.

And it makes sense if you think about the whole forging of Lightbringer and Rhaegar's desire for the Prince that was Promised. He tried three times,just like in Azor Ahai story.

FIrst,Azor Ahai tempered the sword in the water. I can see the parallel in Rhaegar's story being about how Aerys asked Steffon Baratheon to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar,but Steffon failed and died with his wife in a storm when he was returning home (tempering by water).

Second,Azor Ahai tempered the sword by a lion,but the sword split in two. This just screams Elia Martell's murder by Tywin's orders (lion) as well as the murder of two Rhaegar's children (splitting the sword in two).

And third,of course,is the successful forging by tempering it with NIssa Nissa's heart. And of course it is the whole dealio with Lyanna and Jon. I believe I have seen a separate thread where it is stated that R+L=Lightbringer.

Am I onto something here?

[LmL]

Well allow me to muddy up the one comet, two comet, red comet, blue comet analysis, by reminding everyone of Dunk/Brienne's green comet, and the three forks of the trident, red, blue, and green.

Anytime we are dealing with a metaphor involving three, you have to be careful, because there is more than one grouping of three. The famous three is "three heads have the dragon," but not all threes refer to this. We also have the three forging of Lightbringer. I think Lightbringer and Dawn both have three ingredients - this is a particularly strong pattern which I am saving up to unleash on everyone shortly.

When the fire moon is destroyed in a metaphor, we get one of three ideas:

1. three things are born - three dragons from Drogo's pyre, three lakes from the Silver Sea, etc;
2. a thousand things are born, such as the references to a thousand fallen stars, a thousand fires, a thousand red doors, a thousand fingers of the fiery hand, etc.
3. a combination - three things are born, but delineation is drawn between two large things and the third thing which becomes a thousand things

I have often wondered if the three impact spots of the three dragons born from the moon match the pattern of the three forgings - water, lion / beast's heart, Nissa Nissa. This is a possibility I have not ruled out, but neither have I been able to connect them satisfactorily. You know I think one meteor hit the arm of Dorne, that's the one I almost confident in, and the Iron Islands was either hit or suffered a volcano earthquake triggered by the Dorne impact. I originally thought one hit Asshai, but its also possible Asshai was corrupted along with the entire shadowlands by the simple act of the fire moon's destruction, as someone suggested on an earlier thread.

The point being, the red green blue could theoretically describe the three impact zones.

What it almost certainly describes is the earth (green) and its two moons - fire (red) and ice (blue). Those are of course our three most important magics - fire, ice, and earth. Greenseers have red or green eyes... unless they were the greenseers which (hypothesis) turned into others, with blue eyes.

It's hard to match the green comet with anything, other than a general connection with all things green. Dunk puts his green star over a tree, so that makes a lot of sense. But that green comet didn't do anything spectacular, like hitting a moon.

The first comet, when it hit the moon, may have been the natural blue and white color, just as AA's sword was white hot from the forge when he stabbed Nissa. Since real comets are never red, the red signifies a magic comet. How did the comet get magicked? Most likely, the same moment that LB turned red - when it stabbed NN. The explosion from the comet hitting the fire moon showered its magical radiation on the surviving half, turning it red, and now we see that one in the sky in the books.

That would give us a blue and white comet that killed the fire moon, a red comet that is going to (hypothesis) hit the ice moon, that seems appropriate, but our green comet? What exactly happens when Dunk sees that one? Been a while since I read it, and I only have the series proper on ebook.

​All of the meteors which came to earth after the moon's destruction would have been black meteors with red fire. The Dawn meter would be white with red as it fell. But a green one? Did Dunk see a green comet, or did he turn it green on his shield?

[The Mother of The Others]

the free city with the ruling body of 3! that could be the codebreaker for what the magic world is headed towards!

agents of the 3 magic factions must work together.

the sword forgings represent the forging of this triple alliance against..... the elements getting out of control.

On my "what's the motive?" worksheet, this:

malignant space substance infects brains of the planet's elemental witches --> their tainted sorcery calls upon the corresponding stellar bodies to warp their orbits & smash into each other. (that way, fire was already infected with shadow madness when it smashed the moon. fire itself never wanted that. the Outsider malignance did. the thing that attached itself to spiderman, errrrr, Fire. the thing that puppeted the elements the way Others puppet the dead. etc.)

[Durran Durrandon]

I need to transfer three novellas from my laptop to my tablet.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Posted this in another thread,so here it goes.Apologize if it was mentioned before.

The whole idea LmL (or was it?) suggested so many times that Lightbringer might be a person just made me think about Jon. If he is indeed the sword,then Lyanna and Rhaegar are Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai respectively.

And it makes sense if you think about the whole forging of Lightbringer and Rhaegar's desire for the Prince that was Promised. He tried three times,just like in Azor Ahai story.

FIrst,Azor Ahai tempered the sword in the water. I can see the parallel in Rhaegar's story being about how Aerys asked Steffon Baratheon to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar,but Steffon failed and died with his wife in a storm when he was returning home (tempering by water).

Second,Azor Ahai tempered the sword by a lion,but the sword split in two. This just screams Elia Martell's murder by Tywin's orders (lion) as well as the murder of two Rhaegar's children (splitting the sword in two).

And third,of course,is the successful forging by tempering it with NIssa Nissa's heart. And of course it is the whole dealio with Lyanna and Jon. I believe I have seen a separate thread where it is stated that R+L=Lightbringer.

Am I onto something here?

Not quite. If Jon is LB then Rhaenys was the first tempering, and Aegon the second. Because each sword represents a child.

Just because LB was *supposedly* tempered in water, the heart of a lion, and the heart of AA's beloved last time, doesn't mean it will need the exact same process this time. It may not need reforging/re-tempering at all.

[WesterosiDetective]

Posted this in another thread,so here it goes.Apologize if it was mentioned before.

The whole idea LmL (or was it?) suggested so many times that Lightbringer might be a person just made me think about Jon. If he is indeed the sword,then Lyanna and Rhaegar are Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai respectively.

And it makes sense if you think about the whole forging of Lightbringer and Rhaegar's desire for the Prince that was Promised. He tried three times,just like in Azor Ahai story.

FIrst,Azor Ahai tempered the sword in the water. I can see the parallel in Rhaegar's story being about how Aerys asked Steffon Baratheon to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar,but Steffon failed and died with his wife in a storm when he was returning home (tempering by water).

Second,Azor Ahai tempered the sword by a lion,but the sword split in two. This just screams Elia Martell's murder by Tywin's orders (lion) as well as the murder of two Rhaegar's children (splitting the sword in two).

And third,of course,is the successful forging by tempering it with NIssa Nissa's heart. And of course it is the whole dealio with Lyanna and Jon. I believe I have seen a separate thread where it is stated that R+L=Lightbringer.

Am I onto something here?

I've thought about the theory about LB being a person but, I read it slightly differently and Lucifer's essay really helped bring this together for me.

If Rhaegar is the first sword that was tempered by water then we have a much better example in the texts: Rhaegar's death.

Robert killed Rhaegar at the battle of the Trident by swinging a huge hammer down onto Rhaegar. He fell into the water and the rubies from his armour flew off into the river. This sounds very much like a sword bursting asunder in the water.

Rhaegar's children fit into the forging process as well, especially when reconciled with Lucifer's cosmic theory in this thread. Rhaegar was supposed to marry a lioness, but he married the sun instead. This sun/lion symbolism is a little too convenient to be a coincidence if you think about it. They are conflated in the Azor Ahai myth and with the GEotD's/Yi Ti's Lion of the Night/Sun myth. It goes further if we look at the murdered children and their roles in the plot. Rhaenys died immediately like the first comet and, once again, Lucifer's theory is necessary here, Aegon, who is thought to be lost, returns. Just like the other half of the split comet. DISCLAIMER: I'm not here to debate the veracity of Young Griff's claim to the throne. It is irrelevant because this is mostly symbolic.

Assuming this reading is correct then Jon would be Lightbringer because well, that's been explained to death by other threads and I'm lazy. It's either that or LB is a sword and is connected to Jon in some way which GRRM hints at through a thick yummy crust of symbolic layering.

Sorry if someone has already said all of this. I'm new and haven't had the opportunity to browse the whole forum yet.