Lord Lannister Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Lemongate is the biggest red yellow herring ever. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three-eyed monkey Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 there is no purpose for it, that's why it's total crackpot. In fact it would have been a terrible miscalculation by Doran if he had harbored either or both of the two remaining Targaryans. That's why he kept the marriage pact between Arianne and Viserys a secret even from them their entire lives, because he was going out of his way to make sure Robert didn't know about it, so why would he take the chance of letting them live in Dorne for any period of time, no matter how short? He wouldn't, it's ridiculous, people just seem obsessed with what by all appearances is just an editorial error by GRRM that was too ingrained into the novels before anyone realized it.I agree. Editorial error is the most satisfactory explanation for me at this stage. Everything else demands too much supposition, and such a loose narrative just does't fit with the rest of the series. I think the red door and lemon tree do have symbolic relevance for Dany, but their location is not really important to the symbolism. I could see the red door thing reaching some sort of conclusion, probably associated with home or something, but I think the meaning of the symbol will outweigh its location in terms of importance.I enjoyed all the debate and the speculation. But we really do need the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I agree. Editorial error is the most satisfactory explanation for me at this stage. Everything else demands too much supposition, and such a loose narrative just does't fit with the rest of the series. I think the red door and lemon tree do have symbolic relevance for Dany, but their location is not really important to the symbolism. I could see the red door thing reaching some sort of conclusion, probably associated with home or something, but I think the meaning of the symbol will outweigh its location in terms of importance.I enjoyed all the debate and the speculation. But we really do need the next book.indeed, I think GRRM just likes the lemon as a piece of repeated imagery. The lemon tree, Sansa's obsession with lemon cakes, Stannis guzzling lemon water all the time, it's evidence of nothing more than the author having lemons on the brain so to speak, no different than all the references to various food items "drowning in butter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastTymor Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 indeed, I think GRRM just likes the lemon as a piece of repeated imagery. The lemon tree, Sansa's obsession with lemon cakes, Stannis guzzling lemon water all the time, it's evidence of nothing more than the author having lemons on the brain so to speak, no different than all the references to various food items "drowning in butter". Lemons get mentioned A LOT. Per http://asearchoficeandfire.com, "lemon" makes 119 appearances in the main series. Glancing through it, I don't see much a pattern. 119 results found Click to see results by book A Game of Thrones: 25 A Clash of Kings: 6 A Storm of Swords: 35 A Feast for Crows: 40 A Dance with Dragons: 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 It wouldn't have been about the kids themselves, but the politics surrounding them. More like: "I'm the new Sealord! These Targaryen children my predecessor was habouring are affecting trade with Westeros, we'd do well to be rid of them" "How so, my lord?" "The old man, Darry? He's sickly isn't he?" "Quite, my lord. The healers don't think he has long." "Perfect! We'll wait til the old man dies, then evict them!" "We'll see to it, my lord." "Let the servants do it, they can chase the children out and take what they can find as reward for their loyalty." Your case for Darry is plausible if the timing happens to be exactly right, which is a long shot but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But letting the servants run off with the Targaryen family jewels? Really? I have yet to hear a single plausible explanation for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Your case for Darry is plausible if the timing happens to be exactly right, which is a long shot but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But letting the servants run off with the Targaryen family jewels? Really? I have yet to hear a single plausible explanation for that. They didn't run off with the family jewels - not *all* of them, anyway. Viserys managed to hold on to his mother's crown at the very least, and I doubt Darry and his partners had time to clear out the Dragonstone treasury of anything but cold, hard cash before they fled. Especially since they were going for stealth and speed once they grabbed the kids - ransacking the Dragonstone treasury for Targ heirlooms is an easy way to get caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 They didn't run off with the family jewels - not *all* of them, anyway. Viserys managed to hold on to his mother's crown at the very least, and I doubt Darry and his partners had time to clear out the Dragonstone treasury of anything but cold, hard cash before they fled. Especially since they were going for stealth and speed once they grabbed the kids - ransacking the Dragonstone treasury for Targ heirlooms is an easy way to get caught. Yeah, they only had nine months or so, only enough time to throw a couple coppers in a sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yeah, they only had nine months or so, only enough time to throw a couple coppers in a sack. I've got better things to do than argue with you over how much time each of us is speculating they had before fleeing. We don't know when they started planning, we don't know how they executed the plan - all we know is the bare bones of the plan and that they succeeded. For all either of us knows, they'd been planning it the whole time (your 9 months scenario) or they could have made the plan after Rhaella died, giving them maybe a week or two. We don't know and I have better things to do than argue over who thinks their idea is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yeah, they only had nine months or so, only enough time to throw a couple coppers in a sack. Right up until the storm that crushed the remainders of the Targaryen fleet at Dragonstone and the servants decided to sell out the children, there would have been no necessity for an immediate flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Winter Rose Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Your case for Darry is plausible if the timing happens to be exactly right, which is a long shot but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But letting the servants run off with the Targaryen family jewels? Really? I have yet to hear a single plausible explanation for that. Right up until the storm that crushed the remainders of the Targaryen fleet at Dragonstone and the servants decided to sell out the children, there would have been no necessity for an immediate flight. Concentrate you two! Viserys and Dany are envicted after Darry died. That was four or five years after Rhaella died. Servants who done that were at Bravos, not at Dragonstone. Servants at Bravos robbed them out. When Rhaella died, servants at Dragonstone try to sell them out, but Viserys, Dany, Dany's nurse (she's mentioned too) and few loyalist fled. Who know what they took, but servants at Dragonstone never robbed them (as long as we know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Winter Rose Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Lemons get mentioned A LOT. Per http://asearchoficeandfire.com, "lemon" makes 119 appearances in the main series. Glancing through it, I don't see much a pattern. It is interesting to note that Dany never ever mentions her old house with lemon tree in ADWD. Only one lemon tree at wedding party which grows in Meereen. Editorial mistake, sorry guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Concentrate you two! Viserys and Dany are envicted after Darry died. That was four or five years after Rhaella died. Servants who done that were at Bravos, not at Dragonstone. Servants at Bravos robbed them out. When Rhaella died, servants at Dragonstone try to sell them out, but Viserys, Dany, Dany's nurse (she's mentioned too) and few loyalist fled. Who know what they took, but servants at Dragonstone never robbed them (as long as we know). My post is correct, I think you are mistaken? I responded to the idea that Darry had 9 months to prepare the flight from Dragonstone. Darry did not have 9 months, as only after Rhaella's death/Dany's birth, the garrison decided to sell out the Targaryen children (in part due to the remainder of the Targaryen fleet having been destroyed) to Robert's side (Stannis, who was approaching the castle), and thus Darry only had little time to escape. I never said the people at Dragonstone stole from them/robbed them.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Winter Rose Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yes, that's right.But I think you guys misunderstud each other, you're talkng about different stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yes, that's right. But I think you guys misunderstud each other, you're talkng about different stuff. No, we're arguing over how much jewels and treasures Darry and co. managed to take from Dragonstone to Braavos to be stolen by the servants once they were evicted ~5 years later. That's why it seems like there's 2 arguments, but it's just one convoluted argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 No, we're arguing over how much jewels and treasures Darry and co. managed to take from Dragonstone to Braavos to be stolen by the servants once they were evicted ~5 years later. That's why it seems like there's 2 arguments, but it's just one convoluted argument.Yeah, we know what we're arguing about. Rhaella left for Dragonstone immediately after getting pregnant, and was there long enough to give birth. Given that her husband and son were slaughtered, her House destroyed, and the usurper would never be comfortable while Targaryens lived, I highly doubt she expected to keep living in Westeros. Exile was obviously coming, and she had her entire (almost) pregnancy to prepare for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, we know what we're arguing about.Rhaella left for Dragonstone immediately after getting pregnant, and was there long enough to give birth. Given that her husband and son were slaughtered, her House destroyed, and the usurper would never be comfortable while Targaryens lived, I highly doubt she expected to keep living in Westeros. Exile was obviously coming, and she had her entire (almost) pregnancy to prepare for it.Other's don't. A good chunk of Rhaella's plans went under with majority of the Targ fleet during the storm. So most anything that Rhaella had removed from the treasury with the intention of taking with her when they fled is sunk just below Dragonstone. Darry & co had next to no time at all to prepare for their flight - any preparations made previously would have died with Rhaella and the sunken fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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