The true location of Dany's house with the red door

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If her house with the red door was originally in Tyrosh, why did The George put a lemon tree outside of Daenerys's window? The lemon, of course, is defined by its yellow color and sour taste. In addition to its use as food and drink, lemons can be used to clean. I'm guessing this helped the sansanistas to associate lemons with purity and innocence, but my understanding is that the lemon in art symbolizes bitterness and disappointment. Exhibit A would be the Lemon Tree, the Israeli film from 2008, in which a Palestinian attempts to stop her neighbor, who happens to be the Israeli Defense Minister, from destroying the family's lemon grove.

In the end, the protagonist's efforts fail, and the trees are cut down.

The fruit appears to have originated in South Asia. Although they were known in Ancient Rome, they were not widely known in Europe until the tenth century. The first significant cultivation of lemons in Europe did not happen until the very end of the Middle Ages. Since they had to be imported to medieval Europe, lemons became associated with wealth and power. Despite what some sansanistas seem to think, this symbolism of wealth and power seems to have been The George's intention when he had

Petyr serve the giant lemon cake in Alayne I, Winds.

Going back to Daenerys, I dont see why we would need a lemon tree to symbolize the innocence Daenerys lost when she and Viserys were expelled from Tyrosh, I mean Braavos. Daeneryss red door fulfills that symbolism. I believe The George included the lemon tree to foreshadow Daenerys's ultimate bitterness and disappointment.

Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing! :) Will remember this post..

[Tiara Stark]

good work, makes sense.

[three-eyed monkey]

Not necessarily. If you live in a place long enough you will pick up on the local accent. And some of us pick them up after just a few hours. Repeating the pattern for a couple of years could have a permanent effect.

Dany moved around a lot, with the exception of the half a year or so she stayed in Pentos before her wedding and the unknown period of time when Willem Darry was ill and bed-ridden. The latter period was early in her life as Ser Willem died when she was about 5. I would think her accent formed in these early years. If Dany's accent was very fluid and changed as she moved then we might expect her to have a Pentos accent by the time she married Drogo. If six months is not long enough for her to pick up an accent, then why would she have a Tyroshi accent when she visited most of the free cities in the eight or so years between living with Ser Willem and marrying Drogo?

So no actual details changed, only phrasing ?

Yeah, pretty much. I haven't compared the texts in detail, but most of it felt word for word. Certainly no major details changed and nothing new added to the novel. I thought there were a few small things, like something Illyrio said being in quotation marks in one as opposed to relayed through Dany's internal monologue in another.

[Veltigar]

If her house with the red door was originally in Tyrosh, why did The George put a lemon tree outside of Daenerys's window? The lemon, of course, is defined by its yellow color and sour taste. In addition to its use as food and drink, lemons can be used to clean. I'm guessing this helped the sansanistas to associate lemons with purity and innocence, but my understanding is that the lemon in art symbolizes bitterness and disappointment. Exhibit A would be the Lemon Tree, the Israeli film from 2008, in which a Palestinian attempts to stop her neighbor, who happens to be the Israeli Defense Minister, from destroying the family's lemon grove.

In the end, the protagonist's efforts fail, and the trees are cut down.

Just because 'in art' lemon symbolizes these things (according to you I might add) that doesn't mean that GRRM has taken over this symbol. Citing these things totally unrelated works of art to the novels just isn't fit to be called evidence or clues of any type.

Going back to Daenerys, I dont see why we would need a lemon tree to symbolize the innocence Daenerys lost when she and Viserys were expelled from Tyrosh, I mean Braavos. Daeneryss red door fulfills that symbolism. I believe The George included the lemon tree to foreshadow Daenerys's ultimate bitterness and disappointment.

:bang: You were so close with that second passage but this is just wrong. Unsupported by text and just not very logical on top of that. A red door alone doesn't really tell us much, the lemon tree makes it a more bucolic blissful picture and it's a detail with some added significance, as I will explain in the next paragraph.

lemons became associated with wealth and power.

Bingo, this is the main reason why GRRM included a lemon tree. We know that in Braavos trees are for the wealthy, we know that lemons are a luxury item and we know that growing a lemon tree outside of its native habitat can be done by someone of great wealth and influence. Take these three facts together and we can only come to the conclusion that Dany staying in a Braavosi House with a lemon tree means that the Targaryens were a guest of someone who must have been filthy rich, even by Braavosi standards.

Now who do we know to be filthy rich in Braavos? And has a connection to the Targaryens? The answer as I have the pleasure of reminding you, is pretty simple. The Sea Lord is chosen from the foremost trading families of Braavos, meaning that he is fabulously wealthy. The Sea Lord also has a private isle with a very large garden (trees and all) and a menagerie. I'm sure you haven't forgotten that there was a Sea Lord who acted as a witness to a marriage pact between Ser Willem Darry and Prince Oberyn Martell.

Conclusion: Daenerys and Viserys were guests of the Sea Lord of Braavos, who was - for some reason - pursuing a proTargaryen policy at the time. This Sea Lord died after a while and his succesor was decisively less fond of Targaryens, which leads to the Targaryens being expelled from the city. Boom, case closed.

[three-eyed monkey]

Conclusion: Daenerys and Viserys were guests of the Sea Lord of Braavos, who was - for some reason - pursuing a proTargaryen policy at the time. This Sea Lord died after a while and his succesor was decisively less fond of Targaryens, which leads to the Targaryens being expelled from the city. Boom, case closed.

This conclusion would still raise a few questions for me. The expulsion from the house seems to coincide with the death of Ser Willem. Are you speculating that the Sealord died at the same time or is that based on a canon source? A lot of rich and powerful people in the free cities were happy to host the Targ kids in the early years, but as Robert's reign stretched on and the new dynasty became more established, support for Viserys began to wane. That seems reasonable to me, and does not depend on a hypothetical change in the various cities' rulers.

Do we know that they were expelled from the city or just the house? They did return to Braavos at a later date as Dany remembers the voyage on the ship with a green sail. That suggests they were not expelled from the city or else the Sealord who expelled them was dead or no longer in power.

We know the Sealord witnessed the marriage pact, but are we sure he hosted Darry and the kids? He's not the only wealthy person in Braavos.

But let's say you're right and it went as you suggest. Then what do you make of Dany's Tyroshi accent?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Just because 'in art' lemon symbolizes these things (according to you I might add) that doesn't mean that GRRM has taken over this symbol. Citing these things totally unrelated works of art to the novels just isn't fit to be called evidence or clues of any type.

:bang: You were so close with that second passage but this is just wrong. Unsupported by text and just not very logical on top of that. A red door alone doesn't really tell us much, the lemon tree makes it a more bucolic blissful picture and it's a detail with some added significance, as I will explain in the next paragraph.

Bingo, this is the main reason why GRRM included a lemon tree. We know that in Braavos trees are for the wealthy, we know that lemons are a luxury item and we know that growing a lemon tree outside of its native habitat can be done by someone of great wealth and influence. Take these three facts together and we can only come to the conclusion that Dany staying in a Braavosi House with a lemon tree means that the Targaryens were a guest of someone who must have been filthy rich, even by Braavosi standards.

Now who do we know to be filthy rich in Braavos? And has a connection to the Targaryens? The answer as I have the pleasure of reminding you, is pretty simple. The Sea Lord is chosen from the foremost trading families of Braavos, meaning that he is fabulously wealthy. The Sea Lord also has a private isle with a very large garden (trees and all) and a menagerie. I'm sure you haven't forgotten that there was a Sea Lord who acted as a witness to a marriage pact between Ser Willem Darry and Prince Oberyn Martell.

Conclusion: Daenerys and Viserys were guests of the Sea Lord of Braavos, who was - for some reason - pursuing a proTargaryen policy at the time. This Sea Lord died after a while and his succesor was decisively less fond of Targaryens, which leads to the Targaryens being expelled from the city. Boom, case closed.

First off, sweetie, thank you for being so um... direct. Here's a smiley face... :) Now, I would encourage you to type "lemons symbolism literature art" into Google and see what you come up with. I would like to know how many articles you find discussing bitterness and disappointment versus innocence. When I did it, I found a lot of the former and none of the latter (which surprised me since I had thought the sansanistas' suggestion that lemons symbolized purity was valid). But then maybe your google is stronger than my google. You will find references to cleansing, but that requires something dirty to clean, and fidelity.

Did you really mean to suggest that this author, who's so deep into symbolism and paying homage to the works of others, does not rely on established symbolism? When he writes about the stink of sulfur, isn't he trying to suggest the same thing that other artists are trying to suggest with the use of sulfur? Why would lemons be any different?

Here's one example of how the red door is used throughout Daenerys's arc... (spoilers for length)

Daenerys sees

six rapid-fire visions near the end of her time in the House of the Undying Ones...

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

The last six visions before the final one to which she succumbs represent: 1) Trying to save Drogo upon whom she was nearly totally dependent; 2) her longing for the sheltered days of her early childhood; 3) her dragons hatching; 4) the punishment exacted on the man sent by the usurper to kill her and her unborn son, the action that convinced Drogo to begin preparations for an invasion of the Seven Kingdoms; 5) a prized beast presumably being stalked by Dothraki; and 6) the wise women of the Dothraki paying her homage.

The first two of these six show her dependent on others. The second two show her dragons hatching and her acting the way the blood of dragon would be expected to act. The third two show what appears to be happening at the end of Dance, where Jhaqo finds her in the Dothraki Sea, and, perhaps, what will happen in Winds, when Daenerys, the mother of dragons, and Drogon unite the khalasars to mount the world.

And then she succumbs to one last vision...

Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. Mother! they cried. Mother, mother! They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

before Drogon comes to her rescue... just like what happens in Meereen...

Every time the red door pops up, you can see she's kinda wishing, the way we all do now and then, especially in times of stress, for the comfort and safety of her early childhood, the only time she ever felt secure and safe.

Now, as to your last paragraph, is your reasoning truly consistent? Weren't you one of the folks upthread who suggested the lemon tree in Braavos was a mistake? We don't need a lemon tree to tell us the Targlings were being protected by the Sealord. We find that out later. So there's no need to throw it in for that reason. And if it was initially intended to be Tyrosh, well what the heck does a lemon tree add? (Please do feel free to cite other examples in ASOIAF or other pieces of literature where lemon trees are used to symbolism a peaceful bucolic setting.)

Finally, just because I see things differently than you, sweetie , you don't need to go banging yer head up aainst a brick wall. Like I tell my number two when he does stupid stuff like that, the only person you're going to hurt is you. Here's another smiley face :)

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Conclusion: Daenerys and Viserys were guests of the Sea Lord of Braavos, who was - for some reason - pursuing a proTargaryen policy at the time. This Sea Lord died after a while and his succesor was decisively less fond of Targaryens, which leads to the Targaryens being expelled from the city. Boom, case closed.

"Finally, I am the new Sealord of Braavos!"

"Congratulations, master! What will be your first order of business?"

"Those Targaryen children, I don't like them. I worry they may try to bond with and ride the velociraptor. I want them gone!"

"Yes, master, I'll have the guards throw them out immediately!"

"No, wait! That old knight who takes care of them..."

"Ser Darry?"

"Yes, him. He might give the guards some trouble, if only that Syrio fellow had stayed on... Wouldn't it be safer to wait for Ser Darry to get sick?"

"Sick, master? But that might take years."

"But once he's sick, we'll deny him healthcare and he'll absolutely die, and then the Targaryen children will have no protector!"

"And then master, we shall send the guards in to throw them out!"

"No, not yet! Next we should let their servants pilfer the Targaryen family jewels!"

"But master, they have gold and silver, rubies and saphires, wealth beyond count! Wouldn't you rather keep those treasures for yourself?

"True, the treasures are tempting, but have you ever met that Ser Darry?"

"No, master."

"He is so, well, gruff, especially with the servants. Just imagine the hell they've been through. I think they deserve the Targaryen family jewels for their travails. Certainly more than I do."

"Um... okay master."

"Let them pilfer the treasure! Then and only then will we send in the guards to kick out the Targaryen children!"

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Dany moved around a lot, with the exception of the half a year or so she stayed in Pentos before her wedding and the unknown period of time when Willem Darry was ill and bed-ridden. The latter period was early in her life as Ser Willem died when she was about 5. I would think her accent formed in these early years. If Dany's accent was very fluid and changed as she moved then we might expect her to have a Pentos accent by the time she married Drogo. If six months is not long enough for her to pick up an accent, then why would she have a Tyroshi accent when she visited most of the free cities in the eight or so years between living with Ser Willem and marrying Drogo?

Maybe because Tyrosh is the place they stayed the longest after Braavos. AND...since Braavos is pretty much an international city, it's possible that the servants or anyone she was allowed to be involved with (playmates, etc) could have been Tyroshi.

Heck, I start talking with a drawl any time I watch Gone With The Wind. Takes me days to snap out of it. If Dany lived in Tyrosh for a couple years right before going to Pentos, that could be all the explanation we need.

[three-eyed monkey]

Maybe because Tyrosh is the place they stayed the longest after Braavos. AND...since Braavos is pretty much an international city, it's possible that the servants or anyone she was allowed to be involved with (playmates, etc) could have been Tyroshi.

Heck, I start talking with a drawl any time I watch Gone With The Wind. Takes me days to snap out of it. If Dany lived in Tyrosh for a couple years right before going to Pentos, that could be all the explanation we need.

Frankly, my dear... It could be. I think it's a bit loose. The explanation that requires the least amount of assumptions is that Dany was in Tyrosh in an earlier draft, accounting for both the accent and tree lemon tree. I don't like it but I'm starting to think it is likely. Suppose we'll have to "keep reading", if only we could.

[Veltigar]

Finally, just because I see things differently than you, sweetie , you don't need to go banging yer head up aainst a brick wall. Like I tell my number two when he does stupid stuff like that, the only person you're going to hurt is you. Here's another smiley face :)

Look, I know I'm being quite abrasive. Don't take it badly. You have to understand that I hate this theory so much. I'm sick and tired of having to point out that there is nothing abnormal about lemon trees in Braavos, that there is no story worth in Dany growing up in Dorne and that to believe in lemongate one basically has to deny both canon and common sense. On top of that, the tinly veiled veneer of Daenerys hate of some illemonati is also something that I find very distateful.

First off, sweetie, thank you for being so um... direct. Here's a smiley face... :) Now, I would encourage you to type "lemons symbolism literature art" into Google and see what you come up with. I would like to know how many articles you find discussing bitterness and disappointment versus innocence. When I did it, I found a lot of the former and none of the latter (which surprised me since I had thought the sansanistas' suggestion that lemons symbolized purity was valid). But then maybe your google is stronger than my google. You will find references to cleansing, but that requires something dirty to clean, and fidelity.

Did you really mean to suggest that this author, who's so deep into symbolism and paying homage to the works of others, does not rely on established symbolism? When he writes about the stink of sulfur, isn't he trying to suggest the same thing that other artists are trying to suggest with the use of sulfur? Why would lemons be any different?

Tell me, how many other authors use white wine (i.e. Arbor Gold) as a symbol of lies? :rolleyes:

GRRM uses some established symbols (e.g. the boar and the rose) but he's also inventing his own symbolism and you know (shocker!!!) he can also decide that in his world, symbols don't have to correlate 100% to that of other authors. No one was using the madeleine as a symbol of lost innocence before Proust did it after all.

The fact is first and foremost you need to look at the text. Text takes presedence over external explanations not even tangibly related to GRRM's world (tangibly related would take the form of semi-canon material or concrete historical/artistic inspiration as clarified by the author). In which forms are lemons brought up in the book I ask of you? Only three that I can think of. Firstly as a luxury export of Dorne, secondly in relation to Daenerys happy childhood in Braavos and thirdly in relation to Sansa and particularly Sansa's happines (i.e. her time in WF and

The Vale were she feels safe again. Note that the big lemon cake we see in Alayne I comes at a time when Sansa is more happy and in control than she has been for a long, long time

Where exactly are lemons linked to sadness and biterness in the text? Does Dany eat one after she loses her child and husband? Does Arya, on learning of her brother's death drink some lemoncello with the Hound? Does Jon Con, after he gets infected with greyscale, treat himself to a lemon sorbet? Does anyone in the text remark that situation, character or catastrophe X/Y/Z tastes as bitter as lemons?

The answer, if you search the novel is probably going to be 'No'. In this case the Sansanista's (and I have no affiliation with them I can assure you) are almost certainly right, because they can cite from the actual text (canonmaterial) instead of referring people to google and imposing an explanation on the text that is not there.

Here's one example of how the red door is used throughout Daenerys's arc... (spoilers for length)

Daenerys sees

six rapid-fire visions near the end of her time in the House of the Undying Ones...

The last six visions before the final one to which she succumbs represent: 1) Trying to save Drogo upon whom she was nearly totally dependent; 2) her longing for the sheltered days of her early childhood; 3) her dragons hatching; 4) the punishment exacted on the man sent by the usurper to kill her and her unborn son, the action that convinced Drogo to begin preparations for an invasion of the Seven Kingdoms; 5) a prized beast presumably being stalked by Dothraki; and 6) the wise women of the Dothraki paying her homage.

The first two of these six show her dependent on others. The second two show her dragons hatching and her acting the way the blood of dragon would be expected to act. The third two show what appears to be happening at the end of Dance, where Jhaqo finds her in the Dothraki Sea, and, perhaps, what will happen in Winds, when Daenerys, the mother of dragons, and Drogon unite the khalasars to mount the world.

And then she succumbs to one last vision...

before Drogon comes to her rescue... just like what happens in Meereen...

Every time the red door pops up, you can see she's kinda wishing, the way we all do now and then, especially in times of stress, for the comfort and safety of her early childhood, the only time she ever felt secure and safe.

This is the explanation that is most in accordance with canon. Daenerys longs for her days close to the lemon tree, because she experienced a normal childhood there. Her life was not yet burdened by her family name, nor soiled by politics. In other words she longs for those years of innocence and purity she had. This can be linked to Sansa's plight as well. Aside from that, lemons are also a clear symbol of wealth in the books. Thus Dany longing for the Red Door tells us that firstly she's longing for a place to feel home and an innocent life and secondly that Dany's childhood was spent in a place of oppulence and extreme wealth (which might show us that there were politcial machinations going on that Dany the child did not know of).

Now, as to your last paragraph, is your reasoning truly consistent? Weren't you one of the folks upthread who suggested the lemon tree in Braavos was a mistake?

... Clearly you haven't been paying that much attention. I have been saying that lemongate is bullshit precisely because there is nothing odd about Daenerys seeing lemon trees in the rich part of Braavos.

We don't need a lemon tree to tell us the Targlings were being protected by the Sealord. We find that out later. So there's no need to throw it in for that reason.

Clearly, due to the very existence of this thread there are people who need to be hit over the head with it. To be more exact though, there is a difference in protecting and protecting (this would come of better in a spoken conversation). At the moment, we know for certain that Braavos offered the Targaryens political assylum. Political assylum however doesn't necessarily mean that the Targaryens would be hosted by the Sea Lord himself. There are plenty of merchants in Braavos who could have given them a cod on their own accord, if the intention was just assylum and nothing else.

If you agree that the Sea Lord hosted them himself (the hints are there), then it is clearly hinted that the Sea Lord of that time did more than just protecting. He stood witness over a marriage pact and he gave them a mance in his own palace garden. That clearly shows he deemed the Targaryen children an important political asset, since otherwise he wouldn't have given them a house near the very seat of Braavosi power.

These clues together show that the Braavosi Sea Lord at that time favoured a (much) more interventionist policy than the Braavos we see in the current timeline. The Sea Lord quite possibly might have been gearing up for direct meddling in the affairs of Westeros, by supporting a Targaryen pretender.

His succesor on the other hand, clearly didn't like that policy and gave the Targaryens the boot. This shows that there are at least two factions in Braavosi politics (it could be isolationist vs. interventionists or pro-Targaryen vs. Anti-Targaryen or progressive vs. conservative or etc.). Two factions that will quite possibly come to play in Arya's arc and from there on will spill out to the other plots. Don't forget that Braavos is the greatest and most powerful of all Free Cities. If they come out and play, they will most likely significantly impact any of the impending battles set to break out int tWoW.

The idea of political strive in Braavos as a result of Daenerys is not new. The Braavosi have a long and complicated history with Valyrians, dragons, slavery and the Targaryens. A history that is ripe for conflict now that Daenerys, a character with a link to the city, has entered the fray. She's a conquering Valyrian with dragons (in the eyes of the Braavosi elite, this must give some very troubling flashbacks to their own history as slaves), on the other hand she's freeing slaves (which the Braavosi elite will not just like because she frees slaves, but also because this will have a serious negative impact on their Free City rivals).

Add to that some of the other plots currently simmering in and around the city (e.g. IBB hates the Lannisters, but at the same time has already chosen to support Stannis. How will they respond to Daenerys? On that account, how will the FM respond to her? It has been implied that they were behind the Doom and they might not like the rise of a source of rival magic. Then there is Pentos, a city right on the Braavosi doorstep and under Braavosi influence which Ser Barristan has currently promised to hand over to the Tattered Prince. Then there is Syrio's family which probably plays quite an important role in the city and who might be out for revenge on House Lannister. Finally, there are some Wildlings from Hardhome freed from bondage and out there with knowledge of the threat behind the Wall) and the fact that the current Sea Lord is about to die.

Imo all these little tidbits from Dany and Arya's chapters are setting up an arc in tWoW where Arya will get involved with the election of a new Sea Lord. And whether this Sea Lord will be pro Daenerys (which might lead to Braavos either staying neutral or actively supporting her) or anti Daenerys (supporting Faegon with a fleet he currently lack or banding together with Lys, Myr and Tyrosh or both) remains to be seen.

In conclusion the lemon tree has a double purpose. One purpose is to showcase wealth and a connection with the Sea Lord, which tied with other textual clues is setting up some sort of arc for Arya in tWoW, which will determine Braavos' position for or against Daenerys. The second purpose is to service as a vessel/signifier of Dany longing for the innocence and purity she knew when she was young and living there.

But let's say you're right and it went as you suggest. Then what do you make of Dany's Tyroshi accent?

There are really so many possible explanations for this:

1) The Targaryen accent hews closest to the Tyroshi accent

2) She may have had a Tyroshi tutor

3) The assassin was bad at identifying accents

4) The Tyroshi version of High Valyrian might be seen as closer to Old Valyria and therefore be the preferred version

5) The assassin was just trying to strike up conversation so he could unload his poisoned wine on her

[COYStars]

Forgive me, especially if it's already been anwered, but if Dany was brought up in Dorne rather than Braavos, what is the importance of this? imho, a secret like this would need to have consequences upon its reveal - if it's inconsequential then it's irrelevant and not worth the set-up.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Look, I know I'm being quite abrasive. Don't take it badly. You have to understand that I hate this theory so much. I'm sick and tired of having to point out that there is nothing abnormal about lemon trees in Braavos, that there is no story worth in Dany growing up in Dorne and that to believe in lemongate one basically has to deny both canon and common sense. On top of that, the tinly veiled veneer of Daenerys hate of some illemonati is also something that I find very distateful.

Tell me, how many other authors use white wine (i.e. Arbor Gold) as a symbol of lies? :rolleyes:

GRRM uses some established symbols (e.g. the boar and the rose) but he's also inventing his own symbolism and you know (shocker!!!) he can also decide that in his world, symbols don't have to correlate 100% to that of other authors. No one was using the madeleine as a symbol of lost innocence before Proust did it after all.

The fact is first and foremost you need to look at the text. Text takes presedence over external explanations not even tangibly related to GRRM's world (tangibly related would take the form of semi-canon material or concrete historical/artistic inspiration as clarified by the author). In which forms are lemons brought up in the book I ask of you? Only three that I can think of. Firstly as a luxury export of Dorne, secondly in relation to Daenerys happy childhood in Braavos and thirdly in relation to Sansa and particularly Sansa's happines (i.e. her time in WF and

The Vale were she feels safe again. Note that the big lemon cake we see in Alayne I comes at a time when Sansa is more happy and in control than she has been for a long, long time

Where exactly are lemons linked to sadness and biterness in the text? Does Dany eat one after she loses her child and husband? Does Arya, on learning of her brother's death drink some lemoncello with the Hound? Does Jon Con, after he gets infected with greyscale, treat himself to a lemon sorbet? Does anyone in the text remark that situation, character or catastrophe X/Y/Z tastes as bitter as lemons?

The answer, if you search the novel is probably going to be 'No'. In this case the Sansanista's (and I have no affiliation with them I can assure you) are almost certainly right, because they can cite from the actual text (canonmaterial) instead of referring people to google and imposing an explanation on the text that is not there.

This is the explanation that is most in accordance with canon. Daenerys longs for her days close to the lemon tree, because she experienced a normal childhood there. Her life was not yet burdened by her family name, nor soiled by politics. In other words she longs for those years of innocence and purity she had. This can be linked to Sansa's plight as well. Aside from that, lemons are also a clear symbol of wealth in the books. Thus Dany longing for the Red Door tells us that firstly she's longing for a place to feel home and an innocent life and secondly that Dany's childhood was spent in a place of oppulence and extreme wealth (which might show us that there were politcial machinations going on that Dany the child did not know of).

... Clearly you haven't been paying that much attention. I have been saying that lemongate is bullshit precisely because there is nothing odd about Daenerys seeing lemon trees in the rich part of Braavos.

Clearly, due to the very existence of this thread there are people who need to be hit over the head with it. To be more exact though, there is a difference in protecting and protecting (this would come of better in a spoken conversation). At the moment, we know for certain that Braavos offered the Targaryens political assylum. Political assylum however doesn't necessarily mean that the Targaryens would be hosted by the Sea Lord himself. There are plenty of merchants in Braavos who could have given them a cod on their own accord, if the intention was just assylum and nothing else.

If you agree that the Sea Lord hosted them himself (the hints are there), then it is clearly hinted that the Sea Lord of that time did more than just protecting. He stood witness over a marriage pact and he gave them a mance in his own palace garden. That clearly shows he deemed the Targaryen children an important political asset, since otherwise he wouldn't have given them a house near the very seat of Braavosi power.

These clues together show that the Braavosi Sea Lord at that time favoured a (much) more interventionist policy than the Braavos we see in the current timeline. The Sea Lord quite possibly might have been gearing up for direct meddling in the affairs of Westeros, by supporting a Targaryen pretender.

His succesor on the other hand, clearly didn't like that policy and gave the Targaryens the boot. This shows that there are at least two factions in Braavosi politics (it could be isolationist vs. interventionists or pro-Targaryen vs. Anti-Targaryen or progressive vs. conservative or etc.). Two factions that will quite possibly come to play in Arya's arc and from there on will spill out to the other plots. Don't forget that Braavos is the greatest and most powerful of all Free Cities. If they come out and play, they will most likely significantly impact any of the impending battles set to break out int tWoW.

The idea of political strive in Braavos as a result of Daenerys is not new. The Braavosi have a long and complicated history with Valyrians, dragons, slavery and the Targaryens. A history that is ripe for conflict now that Daenerys, a character with a link to the city, has entered the fray. She's a conquering Valyrian with dragons (in the eyes of the Braavosi elite, this must give some very troubling flashbacks to their own history as slaves), on the other hand she's freeing slaves (which the Braavosi elite will not just like because she frees slaves, but also because this will have a serious negative impact on their Free City rivals).

Add to that some of the other plots currently simmering in and around the city (e.g. IBB hates the Lannisters, but at the same time has already chosen to support Stannis. How will they respond to Daenerys? On that account, how will the FM respond to her? It has been implied that they were behind the Doom and they might not like the rise of a source of rival magic. Then there is Pentos, a city right on the Braavosi doorstep and under Braavosi influence which Ser Barristan has currently promised to hand over to the Tattered Prince. Then there is Syrio's family which probably plays quite an important role in the city and who might be out for revenge on House Lannister. Finally, there are some Wildlings from Hardhome freed from bondage and out there with knowledge of the threat behind the Wall) and the fact that the current Sea Lord is about to die.

Imo all these little tidbits from Dany and Arya's chapters are setting up an arc in tWoW where Arya will get involved with the election of a new Sea Lord. And whether this Sea Lord will be pro Daenerys (which might lead to Braavos either staying neutral or actively supporting her) or anti Daenerys (supporting Faegon with a fleet he currently lack or banding together with Lys, Myr and Tyrosh or both) remains to be seen.

In conclusion the lemon tree has a double purpose. One purpose is to showcase wealth and a connection with the Sea Lord, which tied with other textual clues is setting up some sort of arc for Arya in tWoW, which will determine Braavos' position for or against Daenerys. The second purpose is to service as a vessel/signifier of Dany longing for the innocence and purity she knew when she was young and living there.

There are really so many possible explanations for this:

1) The Targaryen accent hews closest to the Tyroshi accent

2) She may have had a Tyroshi tutor

3) The assassin was bad at identifying accents

4) The Tyroshi version of High Valyrian might be seen as closer to Old Valyria and therefore be the preferred version

5) The assassin was just trying to strike up conversation so he could unload his poisoned wine on her

You're big on text, sweetie , which of those explanations is supported by the text? Thanks so much for setting me straight. I will try to pay better attention to your posts.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Soooooooo Dany's house with the Red Door was in Tyrosh!!!!!! Mystery solved lol, not Braavos or Dorne.

[Veltigar]

You're big on text, sweetie , which of those explanations is supported by the text? Thanks so much for setting me straight. I will try to pay better attention to your posts.

Well, obviously 3) or 5) since we know for a fact that Daenerys spend her formative years in Braavos. The others are less compelling since they require some more extrapolation, but you know all are more likely then "OMG, Daenerys is a secret Tyroshi. Throw all hints at a Braavos plot away and forget those pesky memories substantiated in her own PoV right now. This random tertiary character with questionable motives hears her say a few lines and needs to strike up a conversation with her in order to kill her so of course he's going to be 100% accurate in identifying her accent. It's common knowledge that all opportunistic assassins are professional linguists and always truthful about their observations."

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Soooooooo Dany's house with the Red Door was in Tyrosh!!!!!! Mystery solved lol, not Braavos or Dorne.

But...but...that totally ruins the idea that it was in Lys and she's really the daughter of some Valyrian-looking whore.

[three-eyed monkey]

There are really so many possible explanations for this:

1) The Targaryen accent hews closest to the Tyroshi accent

2) She may have had a Tyroshi tutor

3) The assassin was bad at identifying accents

4) The Tyroshi version of High Valyrian might be seen as closer to Old Valyria and therefore be the preferred version

5) The assassin was just trying to strike up conversation so he could unload his poisoned wine on her

All of which amount to bad writing without a single scrap of text to support them.

1. Is there any mention of similarities between Targaryen and Tyroshi accent?

2. Does Dany have any memories of a tutor, besides Viserys?

3. If the assassin was bad at identifying accents, then so was Dany who confirmed his observation.

4. Is there mention of a preferred version of High Valaryian, or the Tyroshi version being closer to Old Valyrian?

5. The assassin was striking up conversation, true, but it is what he said and Dany's reply that we are debating.

[three-eyed monkey]

Double post.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Look, I know I'm being quite abrasive. Don't take it badly. You have to understand that I hate this theory so much. I'm sick and tired of having to point out that there is nothing abnormal about lemon trees in Braavos, that there is no story worth in Dany growing up in Dorne and that to believe in lemongate one basically has to deny both canon and common sense. On top of that, the tinly veiled veneer of Daenerys hate of some illemonati is also something that I find very distateful.

Tell me, how many other authors use white wine (i.e. Arbor Gold) as a symbol of lies? :rolleyes:

GRRM uses some established symbols (e.g. the boar and the rose) but he's also inventing his own symbolism and you know (shocker!!!) he can also decide that in his world, symbols don't have to correlate 100% to that of other authors. No one was using the madeleine as a symbol of lost innocence before Proust did it after all.

The fact is first and foremost you need to look at the text. Text takes presedence over external explanations not even tangibly related to GRRM's world (tangibly related would take the form of semi-canon material or concrete historical/artistic inspiration as clarified by the author). In which forms are lemons brought up in the book I ask of you? Only three that I can think of. Firstly as a luxury export of Dorne, secondly in relation to Daenerys happy childhood in Braavos and thirdly in relation to Sansa and particularly Sansa's happines (i.e. her time in WF and

The Vale were she feels safe again. Note that the big lemon cake we see in Alayne I comes at a time when Sansa is more happy and in control than she has been for a long, long time

Where exactly are lemons linked to sadness and biterness in the text? Does Dany eat one after she loses her child and husband? Does Arya, on learning of her brother's death drink some lemoncello with the Hound? Does Jon Con, after he gets infected with greyscale, treat himself to a lemon sorbet? Does anyone in the text remark that situation, character or catastrophe X/Y/Z tastes as bitter as lemons?

The answer, if you search the novel is probably going to be 'No'. In this case the Sansanista's (and I have no affiliation with them I can assure you) are almost certainly right, because they can cite from the actual text (canonmaterial) instead of referring people to google and imposing an explanation on the text that is not there.

This is the explanation that is most in accordance with canon. Daenerys longs for her days close to the lemon tree, because she experienced a normal childhood there. Her life was not yet burdened by her family name, nor soiled by politics. In other words she longs for those years of innocence and purity she had. This can be linked to Sansa's plight as well. Aside from that, lemons are also a clear symbol of wealth in the books. Thus Dany longing for the Red Door tells us that firstly she's longing for a place to feel home and an innocent life and secondly that Dany's childhood was spent in a place of oppulence and extreme wealth (which might show us that there were politcial machinations going on that Dany the child did not know of).

... Clearly you haven't been paying that much attention. I have been saying that lemongate is bullshit precisely because there is nothing odd about Daenerys seeing lemon trees in the rich part of Braavos.

Clearly, due to the very existence of this thread there are people who need to be hit over the head with it. To be more exact though, there is a difference in protecting and protecting (this would come of better in a spoken conversation). At the moment, we know for certain that Braavos offered the Targaryens political assylum. Political assylum however doesn't necessarily mean that the Targaryens would be hosted by the Sea Lord himself. There are plenty of merchants in Braavos who could have given them a cod on their own accord, if the intention was just assylum and nothing else.

If you agree that the Sea Lord hosted them himself (the hints are there), then it is clearly hinted that the Sea Lord of that time did more than just protecting. He stood witness over a marriage pact and he gave them a mance in his own palace garden. That clearly shows he deemed the Targaryen children an important political asset, since otherwise he wouldn't have given them a house near the very seat of Braavosi power.

These clues together show that the Braavosi Sea Lord at that time favoured a (much) more interventionist policy than the Braavos we see in the current timeline. The Sea Lord quite possibly might have been gearing up for direct meddling in the affairs of Westeros, by supporting a Targaryen pretender.

His succesor on the other hand, clearly didn't like that policy and gave the Targaryens the boot. This shows that there are at least two factions in Braavosi politics (it could be isolationist vs. interventionists or pro-Targaryen vs. Anti-Targaryen or progressive vs. conservative or etc.). Two factions that will quite possibly come to play in Arya's arc and from there on will spill out to the other plots. Don't forget that Braavos is the greatest and most powerful of all Free Cities. If they come out and play, they will most likely significantly impact any of the impending battles set to break out int tWoW.

The idea of political strive in Braavos as a result of Daenerys is not new. The Braavosi have a long and complicated history with Valyrians, dragons, slavery and the Targaryens. A history that is ripe for conflict now that Daenerys, a character with a link to the city, has entered the fray. She's a conquering Valyrian with dragons (in the eyes of the Braavosi elite, this must give some very troubling flashbacks to their own history as slaves), on the other hand she's freeing slaves (which the Braavosi elite will not just like because she frees slaves, but also because this will have a serious negative impact on their Free City rivals).

Add to that some of the other plots currently simmering in and around the city (e.g. IBB hates the Lannisters, but at the same time has already chosen to support Stannis. How will they respond to Daenerys? On that account, how will the FM respond to her? It has been implied that they were behind the Doom and they might not like the rise of a source of rival magic. Then there is Pentos, a city right on the Braavosi doorstep and under Braavosi influence which Ser Barristan has currently promised to hand over to the Tattered Prince. Then there is Syrio's family which probably plays quite an important role in the city and who might be out for revenge on House Lannister. Finally, there are some Wildlings from Hardhome freed from bondage and out there with knowledge of the threat behind the Wall) and the fact that the current Sea Lord is about to die.

Imo all these little tidbits from Dany and Arya's chapters are setting up an arc in tWoW where Arya will get involved with the election of a new Sea Lord. And whether this Sea Lord will be pro Daenerys (which might lead to Braavos either staying neutral or actively supporting her) or anti Daenerys (supporting Faegon with a fleet he currently lack or banding together with Lys, Myr and Tyrosh or both) remains to be seen.

In conclusion the lemon tree has a double purpose. One purpose is to showcase wealth and a connection with the Sea Lord, which tied with other textual clues is setting up some sort of arc for Arya in tWoW, which will determine Braavos' position for or against Daenerys. The second purpose is to service as a vessel/signifier of Dany longing for the innocence and purity she knew when she was young and living there.

There are really so many possible explanations for this:

1) The Targaryen accent hews closest to the Tyroshi accent

2) She may have had a Tyroshi tutor

3) The assassin was bad at identifying accents

4) The Tyroshi version of High Valyrian might be seen as closer to Old Valyria and therefore be the preferred version

5) The assassin was just trying to strike up conversation so he could unload his poisoned wine on her

:bowdown:

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Forgive me, especially if it's already been anwered, but if Dany was brought up in Dorne rather than Braavos, what is the importance of this? imho, a secret like this would need to have consequences upon its reveal - if it's inconsequential then it's irrelevant and not worth the set-up.

there is no purpose for it, that's why it's total crackpot. In fact it would have been a terrible miscalculation by Doran if he had harbored either or both of the two remaining Targaryans. That's why he kept the marriage pact between Arianne and Viserys a secret even from them their entire lives, because he was going out of his way to make sure Robert didn't know about it, so why would he take the chance of letting them live in Dorne for any period of time, no matter how short? He wouldn't, it's ridiculous, people just seem obsessed with what by all appearances is just an editorial error by GRRM that was too ingrained into the novels before anyone realized it.

[Jak Scaletongue]

"Finally, I am the new Sealord of Braavos!"

"Congratulations, master! What will be your first order of business?"

"Those Targaryen children, I don't like them. I worry they may try to bond with and ride the velociraptor. I want them gone!"

"Yes, master, I'll have the guards throw them out immediately!"

"No, wait! That old knight who takes care of them..."

"Ser Darry?"

"Yes, him. He might give the guards some trouble, if only that Syrio fellow had stayed on... Wouldn't it be safer to wait for Ser Darry to get sick?"

"Sick, master? But that might take years."

"But once he's sick, we'll deny him healthcare and he'll absolutely die, and then the Targaryen children will have no protector!"

"And then master, we shall send the guards in to throw them out!"

"No, not yet! Next we should let their servants pilfer the Targaryen family jewels!"

"But master, they have gold and silver, rubies and saphires, wealth beyond count! Wouldn't you rather keep those treasures for yourself?

"True, the treasures are tempting, but have you ever met that Ser Darry?"

"No, master."

"He is so, well, gruff, especially with the servants. Just imagine the hell they've been through. I think they deserve the Targaryen family jewels for their travails. Certainly more than I do."

"Um... okay master."

"Let them pilfer the treasure! Then and only then will we send in the guards to kick out the Targaryen children!"

It wouldn't have been about the kids themselves, but the politics surrounding them. More like:

"I'm the new Sealord! These Targaryen children my predecessor was habouring are affecting trade with Westeros, we'd do well to be rid of them"

"How so, my lord?"

"The old man, Darry? He's sickly isn't he?"

"Quite, my lord. The healers don't think he has long."

"Perfect! We'll wait til the old man dies, then evict them!"

"We'll see to it, my lord."

"Let the servants do it, they can chase the children out and take what they can find as reward for their loyalty."