Who is the secret warrior at harrenhal tournament ?

[aryagonnakill#2]

What would happen in a joust in the real world is fairly insignificant with regards to what would happen in GRRM's fictional magical world. In his world jousters become the best on any given day because a girl is present(Jorah Mormont), and where a relatively small knight(Loras) is considered the best jouster there is due to his horsemanship. It's also a world where we have been specifically introduced to a young female jouster known as Lady Lance.

Beyond that, we have the story itself, and not another option has been presented in this thread. My first thought was Ned, because that would explain Howlands loyalty and Ned does not seek glory so I thought that explained the mystery knight part, but after thinking about it more I don't see how it could not be Lyanna.

[Hol Horse]

Lothor Brune.

[The Twinslayer]

HR?

Yes, Howland Reed. He can't fight well on foot (the squires beat him with tourney swords) but we know he is good on horseback because when he stopped Arthur Dayne from killing Ned, he was riding.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yes, Howland Reed. He can't fight well on foot (the squires beat him with tourney swords) but we know he is good on horseback because when he stopped Arthur Dayne from killing Ned, he was riding.

How do we know that?

[Marcel]

People want to believe that the knight of the laughing tree was Lyanna because it makes "love" between her and Rhaegar more probable. If there is something that I find curious in all this tale is why Brandon didn't offer to joust for Howland Reed.

[The Twinslayer]

How do we know that?

We know that Howland was on horseback when he faced Dayne because Ned tells us:

"In the dream, his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion."

Then, they never dismount, until:

"Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three."

Then:

"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming."

So Howland was riding.

We know that Howland prevented Dayne from killing Ned because Ned (through Brandon's memory) tells us:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed."

So Howland took out, or helped take out, the finest knight Ned had ever seen. He must be pretty good on a horse.

[Mal Malenkirk]

If there is something that I find curious in all this tale is why Brandon didn't offer to joust for Howland Reed.

1 - Did he even know? Howland wouldn't have complained to him, would Lyanna have bragged (and thus embarass Howland) about it?

2 - Joust for Howland? Sounds silly from Brandon's perspective. The impression I get from Brandon is that if he was furious because a friend of his had gotten bullied is that he would have beaten the living shit out of the bullies, not their employers. It does not strike me as being Brandon's style to take indirect vengeance.

Same as when young Jaime Lannister put Merett Frey back in his place back in the days when he was a squire bully. Jaime didn't take it out on someone else, he took it out on the bully. Surely Brandon would have done the same, that fits better with what we know of him.

So in my opinion:

1 - Brandon did not know about Howland getting bullied.

2 - Brandon knew but wasn't a close friend to Howland and thus didn't care. (unlikely he would have cared at least from the family honor perspective).

3 - Brandon did now and he beat the crap out of the squires. It's just not mentioned in the story.

[Mal Malenkirk]

*double post*

[Humble Maester]

Yes, Howland Reed. He can't fight well on foot (the squires beat him with tourney swords) but we know he is good on horseback because when he stopped Arthur Dayne from killing Ned, he was riding.

Do we know that? Also he is a Crannogman, they aren't exactly known for their riding skills.

On the other hand, do you know who was renowned for her riding skills? Lyanna Stark. Yes it was Lyanna.

[Jô Maltese]

I am not convinced of many things in ASOIAF but KOLT = Lyanna Stark is one of them. Lyanna, the she-wolf, whose skill on a horse was only surpassed by Domeric Bolton... And 14 is definitely adult age for women in ASOIAF: Sansa is "now" 14, I guess.

[Coxy]

I think the likenesses drawn between Lyanna and Arya, in addition to the story effectively telling us what kind of person Lyanna was, means the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna. Also if Howland was the knight, you think he'd have told his kids.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Nah, let's face it, it's completely unrealistic. Like dragons and Ice Zombies. But it's par for the course for fantasy and I too assume it was her.

Well, Lyanna is a magical girl. Latent skinchanging ability, expressed in a close connection to horses.

Real jousting is not mostly horsemanship. Keeping your horse calm in a tourney and riding in a straight line at a steady pace is not as easy as it sounds, but it's not an impressive feat of horsemanship either. Jousting is primarily about being strong enough to keep a huge lance on target and about absorbing a lot of kinetic energy while managing to stay in the saddle. There is a revival of jousting nowadays, and without surprise the best jousters tend to be fairly big guys. The winner of the full-metal-jousting reality show for example was 6'4'' 240 pounds**. A 14 year old weighing half as much would get ejected from her horse on any glancing blow and would have a much harder time handling the same lance..

Opinions on that matter differ a bit. There are a lot of historical accounts of the importance of timing and stuff, emphasing to drop the lance at the last moment. The point is to correctly judge the acceleration of two horses going from zero to 30 km/h across five meters, the up and down and lower the lance just at the right moment.

Strength can help to make up for lacking technique, yes, but technique is what wins.

The problem with modern recreation is that nobody has had the training for it, nor are there any skilled teachers available. Modern technique is shit.

Also, these three no-name knights were good enough to compete at the biggest tournament in years, which is kinda like the major leagues. Unless there were 20 000 knights competing in the tournament, I expect there was some means to screen the shrubs and only have a few hundreds of the best jousters take the field.

Nope, everybody who was there and ready to risk his horse and armor was invited. Of course that already limits the field somewhat. But it's money and nobility that counts, not skill.

[Witchy]

Only a woman would have reason in this world to hide her identity as a jouster. And lots of small, sinewy people are great jousters in ASOIAF, regardless of whether that would happen in the real world.

[Witchy]

double post

[Rippounet]

Only a woman would have reason in this world to hide her identity as a jouster.

Barristan Selmy (and a few others) just called, and they beg to differ.

[Humble Maester]

Barristan Selmy (and a few others) just called, and they beg to differ.

I guess that should be reformulated as: "Relatively few people would have a reason to hide their identity in a joust". One example would be if you were a wee kid like Barry was. Another would be if you were a young noble woman.

On other hand people like Ned, Brandon or Howland would have no need to hide their identity in a joust.

[Witchy]

I guess that should be reformulated as: "Relatively few people would have a reason to hide their identity in a joust". One example would be if you were a wee kid like Barry was. Another would be if you were a young noble woman.

On other hand people like Ned, Brandon or Howland would have no need to hide their identity in a joust.

*nods*

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 is not almost an adult, and she is a girl besides.

<snip

Excuse me? Please take that notion back to the cave with you. I'm no feminist but that ticked me off.

Nah, let's face it, it's completely unrealistic. Like dragons and Ice Zombies.

Also, these three no-name knights were good enough to compete at the biggest tournament in years, which is kinda like the major leagues. Unless there were 20 000 knights competing in the tournament, I expect there was some means to screen the shrubs and only have a few hundreds of the best jousters take the field.

<snip

Ha ha. Excellent point.

Uh, not necessarily. Big tournaments are big in part because of how many entrants there are, and of course how big the purse is (which of course draws more entries). There aren't enough top notch knights available most of the time to make up a huge tourney by themselves. Let's not forget that Ashford was pretty big and Dunk (who no one had EVER heard of) was able to enter. He was also thinking of jousting at Whitewalls despite Egg reminding him that he's not a very good jouster. As far as I know the only requirements to compete in medieval tourneys were knight status, and having the horse and equipment to participate. Dunk only needed someone to vouch for him because no one believed he was a knight--which he wasn't.

I sincerely hope the jousting in the SCA at least continues beyond fad-level. Would be a shame to see it die.

[The Twinslayer]

I guess that should be reformulated as: "Relatively few people would have a reason to hide their identity in a joust". One example would be if you were a wee kid like Barry was. Another would be if you were a young noble woman.

On other hand people like Ned, Brandon or Howland would have no need to hide their identity in a joust.

Howland had a good reason to hide his identity. He was afraid of the Freys ("He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him.") and one of the knights he unseated ("a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well.") was a Frey. So after he "marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later," he needed to come up with a plan that would let him get his revenge without drawing too much Frey attention down on himself.

Also, mystery knights are pretty common. "Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress."

Mystery knights usually reveal themselves eventually, but Howland had an added reason not to do that: "the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his." So now he had to worry about the Freys and the Mad King, if his identity was revealed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

We know that Howland was on horseback when he faced Dayne because Ned tells us:

"In the dream, his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion."

Then, they never dismount, until:

"Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three."

Then:

"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming."

So Howland was riding.

We know that Howland prevented Dayne from killing Ned because Ned (through Brandon's memory) tells us:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed."

So Howland took out, or helped take out, the finest knight Ned had ever seen. He must be pretty good on a horse.

So he's riding, until he dismounts with the others, and starts fighting?

Nothing in that passage indicates he was mounted when it happened. And more to the point, the story he told his children basically says he worthless with lance and horse.

“I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people.”

And the exposition of the story shows he was clearly watching too. Obviously that kind of stuff can be misdirection, but there's a reason three squires were able to knock him around and do whatever they wanted to him. He's small (check), travelled without a horse (check), and didn't have typical knightly weapons (check). HR wasn't the KOTLT.

Whether or not Lyanna is a realistic alternative is kind of a moot point in a fantasy novel, but there really aren't any other good alternatives. In my mind the only other real option would be Benjen and he doesn't make nearly as much sense from a narrative standpoint.