Who is the secret warrior at harrenhal tournament ?

[Rippounet]

GRRM gives us an in world expert who tells us it is.

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed.

Roose Bolton also backs this up.

A great jouster must be a great horseman first.

The fact that great jousters must be great riders does not, in itself, mean that great riders necessarily make great jousters.

This is so perfect a fallacy that I can't believe so many people use that quote without due consideration.

Lyanna has part of what it takes, certainly. But Jaime's quote is meaningless if she never tried jousting before. And this is another problem.

Pros: Lyanna, like Arya, liked to fight (cf Bran's vision) and no doubt enjoyed boyish activties. Brandon being a good jouster probably means her brothers trained at some point.

Cons: Lyanna, like Arya, is still a lady, and it is doubtful that Rickard would have allowed her to train. And Brandon and his brothers training in Winterfell is uncertain at best.

The text strongly hints at Lyanna being the KotLT. I would read Meera's reluctance as you do: she is surprised Bran hasn't heard of his aunt's exploit.

Yet, it the how which bothers me. And Meera's reluctance also indicates she knows something else. Martin said we don't see HR in the books because "he knows too much." Most likely Meera knows at least part of this "too much" as well. In fact, until we meet HR himself, Meera might prove the best source of knowledge for what really happened at Harrenhal.

- If Lyanna jousted, HR might well have helped her with his magic. Disguising her voice and/or hindered the knights. If he can somehow transform earth into mud or weave words to create illusions it would certainly help.

- The reverse isn't entirely impossible. If Lyanna had a special affinity with horses she could have helped HR on a horse and/or affected the knights' horses.

This is just guesswork of course. But the weirwood of the KotLT certainly hints at the use of Old Gods magic. And such magic would have come in handy at the Tower of Joy.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Also, these three no-name knights were good enough to compete at the biggest tournament in years, which is kinda like the major leagues. Unless there were 20 000 knights competing in the tournament, I expect there was some means to screen the shrubs and only have a few hundreds of the best jousters take the field.

An anonymous challenger entering the tourney out of the blue, no questions asked, kind of disproves this assumption, doesn't (s)he?

[Ygrain]

GRRM gives us an in world expert who tells us it is.

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed.

Roose Bolton also backs this up.

A great jouster must be a great horseman first.

You might want to add Wyman Manderly - in his youth, a decent horseman so that he could enter the lists.

And Brienne is a perfect example of why Lyanna cannot have a "booming voice" (thank you for the hint).

- Brienne is tall and very strong, she could probably have a booming voice if she wanted.

And yet:

This is the single word spoken by Brienne before Catelyn learns that she is a woman. Of course, Brienne is not trying to hide her sex. But if anything, this passage proves that helms do, in fact, muffle voices.

Now, please, can you show the quote that Brienne was somehow trying to conceal her identity or change her voice?

What this passage proves is that helmets have an effect on the quality of the voice. Ever tried hollering in a metal basket?

[Rippounet]

Now, please, can you show the quote that Brienne was somehow trying to conceal her identity or change her voice?

I very clearly said she wasn't. A bit overeager to contradict you are, perhaps? ;)

Should have made myself clearer though. Brienne is a bad example for Lyanna because:

- She is mistaken for a man by Cat, but she speaks only a single word. So it's clearly a question of build and strength.

- Her voice is muffled by her helm, so it's unlikely that taking a booming voice would be easy even for Brienne.

Thus, if anything, the Brienne passage seems to show that helms do not give a woman a deeper or more resounding voice, rather than showing they do.

But this is nitpicking. In fact, there's a wiki page on this question:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree/Theories

And so far, it seems this thread has not managed to go beyond what the wiki says.

[Universal Sword Donor]

There is no indication that Howland, or any of Ned's party, dismounted.

Well seeing how he specifically just mentions the wraiths, not the horses, and we know the horses didn't die and the men did. He specifically brought back the red stallion Lady Dustin gave to her husband. At best, I'd say this is a wash as to mounted vs unmounted, but

Why would they do that? More to the point, why would GRRM go to the trouble of describing their horses, including the vivid description of Lord Dustin's horse, but then fail to mention that they dismounted?I think this supports my point. He wanted to do it but he did not want to be embarrassed: this, he did it in disguise.There is nothing in the story that says he was watching. The story starts by telling about a series of events when Howland was by himself -- leaving the Neck, going under the Twins, going to and leaving the Isle of Faces. He isn't watching someone else do this: he is doing it himself.

If you read that section, it says he'd be an awful knight. He doesn't have the skills or experience to be a good jouster. And it's his daughter describing him as "brave, strong, and smart." He might be brave and smart, but 3 squires aka pre-teens were able to disarm him and shove him around despite himself being roughly Ned's age. He was a grown man when he went to the IoF (at least sixteen) and stayed there through a 2 year winter.

And you are right that he is small but he is also described as strong, having good dexterity, and knowing magic. Against that, all Lyanna has is the fact that she could ride a horse quickly and she could use a tourney sword to scare 3 unarmed kids.

You're undermining yourself with that argument. If they were 3 unarmed kids, how does that reflect on HR given that he had a frog spear with him and they shoved him around like a red-headed stepchild disavowed by both parents?

[Frey family reunion]

The fact that great jousters must be great riders does not, in itself, mean that great riders necessarily make great jousters.

This is so perfect a fallacy that I can't believe so many people use that quote without due consideration.

Lyanna has part of what it takes, certainly. But Jaime's quote is meaningless if she never tried jousting before. And this is another problem.

Pros: Lyanna, like Arya, liked to fight (cf Bran's vision) and no doubt enjoyed boyish activties. Brandon being a good jouster probably means her brothers trained at some point.

Cons: Lyanna, like Arya, is still a lady, and it is doubtful that Rickard would have allowed her to train. And Brandon and his brothers training in Winterfell is uncertain at best.

The text strongly hints at Lyanna being the KotLT. I would read Meera's reluctance as you do: she is surprised Bran hasn't heard of his aunt's exploit.

Yet, it the how which bothers me. And Meera's reluctance also indicates she knows something else. Martin said we don't see HR in the books because "he knows too much." Most likely Meera knows at least part of this "too much" as well. In fact, until we meet HR himself, Meera might prove the best source of knowledge for what really happened at Harrenhal.

- If Lyanna jousted, HR might well have helped her with his magic. Disguising her voice and/or hindered the knights. If he can somehow transform earth into mud or weave words to create illusions it would certainly help.

- The reverse isn't entirely impossible. If Lyanna had a special affinity with horses she could have helped HR on a horse and/or affected the knights' horses.

This is just guesswork of course. But the weirwood of the KotLT certainly hints at the use of Old Gods magic. And such magic would have come in handy at the Tower of Joy.

:agree:

I agree with this conclusion. Lyanna is the only one with the motive, horseriding, and size that could have been the mystery knight. However, as brought up before, it's extremely unlikely that a fourteen year old girl could have defeated three knights in a row (and before you call them average knights, at least one of them probably went on to become a Kingsguard). These three knights had also won their first tilt, so it appears that they were decent jousters. Even Harwin implies to Arya that while Lyanna was a very good rider, his father was the master of horse and he was a better rider after he catches Arya during her attempt to escape the Brotherhood. Yet Harwin was unhorsed in the first tilt by Meryn Trant during the Hand's tourney.

So it's unlikely that Lyanna could have defeated these knights without cheating. If Howland was a witch, then my guess is he and Lyanna concocted a plan to use her horsemanship and his magic to help get a measure of revenge for how the squires treated him.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

The wolfsblood Ned attributes to her and Brandon and how Lady Dustin compared those two to centaurs with their (almost?) supernatural riding skills.

Skinchanging the direwolves seems to be possible for the Starks due to the mystical connection which I assume comes partially from direwolves being their sigil and closely associated with House Stark. Why are Lyanna and Brandon able to learn to skinchange horses, seemingly on their own without any known guidance? None of the current Stark kids without outside training that have been known to warg, have been able to skinchange anything but their direwolves, which there had already been established a kind of bizarre, mystical connection.

Does it not seem strange that for some reason Lyanna and Brandon could skinchange, who conveniently enough happen to be dead, but there is no mention of Ned or Benjen ever being able to despite living for much longer?

[Rippounet]

None of the current Stark kids without outside training that have been known to warg, have been able to skinchange anything but their direwolves, which there had already been established a kind of bizarre, mystical connection.

Arya warged a cat.

But I agree one doesn't need to bring skinchanging in this story. Some people can also be very good with horses. In fact, I know at least two girls who were very competent riders at 14.

[Connartist92]

Maybe she is just surprised because its a well known tale and both of their families are involved in one way or another. It's not like Meera knows who it was so I don't see any specific reason she would be surprised other than what I said in the first sentence.

We don't know if Meera knew who it was though. There's a hell of a lot she didn't tell Bran while she was telling that story. In fact, when Bran asks about the green men she says "That's another story, and not for me to tell." She knows a lot more than she's letting on

[Ygrain]

I very clearly said she wasn't. A bit overeager to contradict you are, perhaps? ;)

Should have made myself clearer though. Brienne is a bad example for Lyanna because:

- She is mistaken for a man by Cat, but she speaks only a single word. So it's clearly a question of build and strength.

- Her voice is muffled by her helm, so it's unlikely that taking a booming voice would be easy even for Brienne.

Thus, if anything, the Brienne passage seems to show that helms do not give a woman a deeper or more resounding voice, rather than showing they do.

But this is nitpicking. In fact, there's a wiki page on this question:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree/Theories

And so far, it seems this thread has not managed to go beyond what the wiki says.

My point was that you cannot conclude anything from Brienne because she was not trying to change her voice for any reason.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Skinchanging the direwolves seems to be possible for the Starks due to the mystical connection which I assume comes partially from direwolves being their sigil and closely associated with House Stark. Why are Lyanna and Brandon able to learn to skinchange horses, seemingly on their own without any known guidance? None of the current Stark kids without outside training that have been known to warg, have been able to skinchange anything but their direwolves, which there had already been established a kind of bizarre, mystical connection.

Does it not seem strange that for some reason Lyanna and Brandon could skinchange, who conveniently enough happen to be dead, but there is no mention of Ned or Benjen ever being able to despite living for much longer?

Why wouldn't they? That's what untrained skinchangers do unconsciously.

Does it not seem strange that for some reason only Lyanna and Brandon are mentioned as having the wolfsblood, and only Lyanna and Brandon are compared to centaurs?

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Why wouldn't they? That's what untrained skinchangers do unconsciously.

Does it not seem strange that for some reason only Lyanna and Brandon are mentioned as having the wolfsblood, and only Lyanna and Brandon are compared to centaurs?

Dothraki archers were said to be "as fluid as centaurs". Are they skinchanging, or is that more than likely just a means to describe people with an ability to ride horses really well?

[Witchy]

Why wouldn't they? That's what untrained skinchangers do unconsciously.

Does it not seem strange that for some reason only Lyanna and Brandon are mentioned as having the wolfsblood, and only Lyanna and Brandon are compared to centaurs?

I think that before magic started coming back in the world, people weren't skinchanging except for north of the Wall. But these descriptions of Brandon and Lyanna give us further proof that the ability to warg is in the Stark blood, just waiting to be activated (if you will) by the arrival of magic in the world: dragons, direwolves south of the Wall, winter, undead walking around, etc. Had there been magic in the world at that point, they probably WOULD have been skinchangers. As it was they were just very sympatico with animals.

A caveat: apparently the Crannogmen never lost their magic. That's probably because they are descendents of the Children.

[Mithras]

Here is a song by Tom.

My featherbed is deep and soft,

and there I’ll lay you down,

I’ll dress you all in yellow silk,

and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,

and I shall be your lord.

I’ll always keep you warm and safe,

and guard you with my sword.

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no featherbed for me.

I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

If you reread that Arya chapter, you will see that it also fits the context too damn well.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

I think that before magic started coming back in the world, people weren't skinchanging except for north of the Wall. But these descriptions of Brandon and Lyanna give us further proof that the ability to warg is in the Stark blood, just waiting to be activated (if you will) by the arrival of magic in the world: dragons, direwolves south of the Wall, winter, undead walking around, etc. Had there been magic in the world at that point, they probably WOULD have been skinchangers. As it was they were just very sympatico with animals.

A caveat: apparently the Crannogmen never lost their magic. That's probably because they are descendents of the Children.

Ya so far there is some inconsistency as far as when/where magic is working not to mention if there is any major distinction between types of magic and the like. At the least I'd say magic has grown stronger. People like Bloodraven and Shiera seemingly practiced it almost 100 years ago. Similarly some of the prophets like the Ghost of High Heart had been practicing a form for a while. It seems that people with knowledge or training or experience or have some other attribute were previously able to use some forms. Like I can't remember if Bloodraven warged prior to going to the Wall, but that would be telling.

As of now I'm far more hesitant to assign magical reasons for things that happened prior to the current story in recent history. For example if there was more emphasis overall placed on their riding and they were shown to have otherworldly ability, then I'd say it's worth potentially believing in, although having that ability manifest in horses still seems kind of awkward to me. When as far as we've heard Domeric Bolton(probably lots of others in the South and East) is a better rider, there isn't a whole lot to go on to assume they are wargs as nothing seems bizarre or strange between people being good at something like riding when they have the means and opportunities to do it.

[Bael's Bastard]

There is no reason to think Howland had or was more capable of "a booming voice through his helm" than a 14 or 15 or whatever year old Lyanna. And there is every reason to think Lyanna was physically more equipped to accomplish what the KOTLT did than Howland. Furthermore, without knowing anything about the defeated knights, the fact that they were knights tells us nothing about their ages, or sizes, or capability. We are told they were victorious, but nothing about their quality or the quality of those they defeated in those early days of the tourney, before they all lost to the slight knight. We have one source for the "voice booming through the helm," and it is the same source that earlier in the story tell us of how the she-wolf roared and howled at the squires.

[corbon]

The problem is, it is the textbook definition which the author has consistently used throughout the books. You are the one trying to use a very broad definition of the word which goes against textual evidence.

And Brienne is a perfect example of why Lyanna cannot have a "booming voice" (thank you for the hint).

- Brienne is tall and very strong, she could probably have a booming voice if she wanted.

And yet:

This is the single word spoken by Brienne before Catelyn learns that she is a woman. Of course, Brienne is not trying to hide her sex. But if anything, this passage proves that helms do, in fact, muffle voices.

Err, what? Textbook definition? It means what it means. Booming is something that can be put into a voice deliberately. In fact the quotes previously shown (in this thread?) covering the use of "booming" in the series so far were almost all of leaders projecting their voices in a battle or crowd, exactly what I am talking about.

And your Brienne example is a complete logical fallacy. Brienne probably could use a booming voice but she has no need to and does not. That does nothing to show that Lyanna could not possibly use a booming voice.

All we see from that scene regarding voices, is that the helm sufficiently muffles voices that a woman in a helm can easily be mistaken for a man even if she is making no effort to disguise her voice.

The fact that great jousters must be great riders does not, in itself, mean that great riders necessarily make great jousters.

This is so perfect a fallacy that I can't believe so many people use that quote without due consideration.

Umm, but you have it backwards. No one is saying she must be a great jouster because she was a great rider. We are saying that she was definitely a great rider and this gives her a significant edge towards becoming a great, or at least, good enough, jouster.

Lyanna has part of what it takes, certainly. But Jaime's quote is meaningless if she never tried jousting before. And this is another problem.

Pros: Lyanna, like Arya, liked to fight (cf Bran's vision) and no doubt enjoyed boyish activties. Brandon being a good jouster probably means her brothers trained at some point.

Cons: Lyanna, like Arya, is still a lady, and it is doubtful that Rickard would have allowed her to train. And Brandon and his brothers training in Winterfell is uncertain at best.

Who says she never tried jousting? Actually, I agree its very unlikely she did before, at least not much. Rickard already forbade her from sword play IIRC.

However, we are told that riding at rings is common for squires and historically it was the main training exercise for lancers (the Citadel lists III.493 as the reference, whatever that means). It would be trivially easy for her to practice riding at rings, either at Winterfell or in secret outside it, and very very easy to see this as a game she could play with her brothers often. So its very easy to see her as well practiced with a lance, even if not necessarily while fully armoured.

The text strongly hints at Lyanna being the KotLT. I would read Meera's reluctance as you do: she is surprised Bran hasn't heard of his aunt's exploit.

Yet, it the how which bothers me. And Meera's reluctance also indicates she knows something else. Martin said we don't see HR in the books because "he knows too much." Most likely Meera knows at least part of this "too much" as well. In fact, until we meet HR himself, Meera might prove the best source of knowledge for what really happened at Harrenhal.

Yes, Jojen and Meera know a lot more than they have said so far, that much is sure.

A couple of other indirect clues from the story;

Bran: "Then what happened, Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

and

Bran: And the Mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," Said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

- If Lyanna jousted, HR might well have helped her with his magic. Disguising her voice and/or hindered the knights. If he can somehow transform earth into mud or weave words to create illusions it would certainly help.

- The reverse isn't entirely impossible. If Lyanna had a special affinity with horses she could have helped HR on a horse and/or affected the knights' horses.

It wasn't HR. He already turned down the opportunity to ride because he didn't have the skills.

One thing that puzzles me about people that complain about Lyanna beating three knights. Don't you think that there is much much greater author's licence (or suspension of disbelief if you will) required to arrange that those exact three knights would be simultaneously champions. And at the very end of the day when the KotLT could challenge them, win and then disappear? I mean, all day, the main even has been 5 champions being individually challenged, and replaced as they lose. And these three middling no-names (literally!) with the critical connection through the actions of their squires that they are probably not even aware of, somehow manage to all be amongst the 5 and at just the right timing too? Really?

This is just guesswork of course. But the weirwood of the KotLT certainly hints at the use of Old Gods magic. And such magic would have come in handy at the Tower of Joy.

Sure. But there is no actual evidence of any such magic that we have seen. And it simply isn't necessary in any way.

:agree:

I agree with this conclusion. Lyanna is the only one with the motive, horseriding, and size that could have been the mystery knight. However, as brought up before, it's extremely unlikely that a fourteen year old girl could have defeated three knights in a row (and before you call them average knights, at least one of them probably went on to become a Kingsguard). These three knights had also won their first tilt, so it appears that they were decent jousters. Even Harwin implies to Arya that while Lyanna was a very good rider, his father was the master of horse and he was a better rider after he catches Arya during her attempt to escape the Brotherhood. Yet Harwin was unhorsed in the first tilt by Meryn Trant during the Hand's tourney.

So it's unlikely that Lyanna could have defeated these knights without cheating. If Howland was a witch, then my guess is he and Lyanna concocted a plan to use her horsemanship and his magic to help get a measure of revenge for how the squires treated him.

The three knights cannot have been terrible jousters. They all had won at least one bout and one had survived as one of the 5 'champions' more or less all day (though we don't know if he was actually challenged at all or not).

However, all the KotLT has to do is ride 3 times and unhorse 3 middling knights. Thats it. A superb horse(wo)man, using light tourney lances, with natural talent and probably lots of practice riding at rings against her brothers, its not at all unfeasible.

A caveat: apparently the Crannogmen never lost their magic. That's probably because they are descendents of the Children.

While thats possible, I don't think thats necessarily apparent.

I don't believe they have any magical 'magic' beyond the usual rare mix of green dreamers etc. The 'magics' of their people are simply swamp skills that seem mysterious and impossible to outsiders.

[Rippounet]

Sure. But there is no actual evidence of any such magic that we have seen. And it simply isn't necessary in any way.

One thing that puzzles me about people that complain about Lyanna beating three knights. Don't you think that there is much much greater author's licence (or suspension of disbelief if you will) required to arrange that those exact three knights would be simultaneously champions. And at the very end of the day when the KotLT could challenge them, win and then disappear? I mean, all day, the main even has been 5 champions being individually challenged, and replaced as they lose. And these three middling no-names (literally!) with the critical connection through the actions of their squires that they are probably not even aware of, somehow manage to all be amongst the 5 and at just the right timing too? Really?

I think you may have a valid point here, and at the same time you underline the main problem.

Lyanna winning against the three knights isn't entirely impossible. It's just very hard to believe when the rest of the story is generally pretty coherent and logical as far as feats of arms are concerned. I mean, Barry tried jousting at ten, and didn't magically become outstanding. Ser Hugh even got himself killed (though I'm aware this is a poor example).

Yes, Jojen and Meera know a lot more than they have said so far, that much is sure.

A couple of other indirect clues from the story;

Bran: "Then what happened, Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

and

Bran: And the Mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," Said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

What's interesting here is the meta-textual quality of this exchange. Bran sees this as a story, and expects a predictable happy-ending.

Which indirectly casts doubt on the whole thing. Stories tend to be distorted or exagerated. Should we take everything Meera says at face value?

If you think about it... That the three knights would indeed all three be champions on the same day is quite convenient...

The chastisement of the squires is interesting as well. How did it happen exactly? Did everyone watch? Did the KotLT stay until it was done? Did he personally return the "horses and armour" to the knights? Wouldn't people try to talk to him or follow him?

In fact, did the chastisement actually happen?

Were the bullies really the squires?

Err, what? Textbook definition? It means what it means. Booming is something that can be put into a voice deliberately. In fact the quotes previously shown (in this thread?) covering the use of "booming" in the series so far were almost all of leaders projecting their voices in a battle or crowd, exactly what I am talking about.

Projecting one's voice while faking it is no mean feat.

And yes, a "booming voice" is supposed to be, by definition, deep and powerful. I don't think a discussion on semantics is necessary. ;)

It wasn't HR. He already turned down the opportunity to ride because he didn't have the skills.

But not because he didn't want to, Meera makes this very clear.

And your Brienne example is a complete logical fallacy. Brienne probably could use a booming voice but she has no need to and does not. That does nothing to show that Lyanna could not possibly use a booming voice.

All we see from that scene regarding voices, is that the helm sufficiently muffles voices that a woman in a helm can easily be mistaken for a man even if she is making no effort to disguise her voice.

Well, you're the one who brought up Brienne. I was trying to state that Brienne's example only proves that helms muffle voices, which wouldn't help a voice be "booming."

You can't really be arguing that Brienne's voice played a major role in Catelyn's mistake.

It wasn't HR. He already turned down the opportunity to ride because he didn't have the skills.

Yes, and the three squires beating him up until Lyanna arrives would suggest he's rather weak and easy to bully...

Yet, it's the same HR which will later be one of the two only survivors of an epic fight against three of the best fighters in Westeros. The same HR who Ned thinks he owes his life to when he fought no less than Arthur Dayne, the man who Jaime said could beat the entire kingsguard "while taking a piss."

The same HR whose young daughter is quite competent at fighting. Hmmm, how old was HR at Harrenhal? According to the wiki, at least 16. And he would have been heir to Greywater Watch, of course.

I know the crannogmen are underestimated, but wasn't HR a young lord? Did he really meet the Starks by accident -thanks to Lyanna? Was he really beaten up by mere squires?

Now, it's possible the episode is merely supposed to be more fantasy-ish than other passages in the books. Maybe Lyanna is this Eowyn-like character who can kick ass for plot convenience.

But wouldn't it be more logical to assume that the whole story is romanticized by Meera? That a mystery knight defeated three knights is fact, so there is certainly a grain of truth to it. But which parts are embellished or exaggerated? Which parts might be, in fact, not entirely true?

[corbon]

What's interesting here is the meta-textual quality of this exchange. Bran sees this as a story, and expects a predictable happy-ending.

Whats interesting to me here is that other parts of the series provide strong cues that the Mystery Knight may not have won the tournament and married the princess (there is no princess in the story), but she did (perhaps, later) marry the prince (who is in the story).

And that the wolf maid being named QoLaB is a sad story.

Which indirectly casts doubt on the whole thing. Stories tend to be distorted or exagerated. Should we take everything Meera says at face value?

You can't really be arguing that Brienne's voice played a major role in Catelyn's mistake.

Meera's story isn't just a story from her to Bran though, its a story from GRRM to Us. It contains lots of critical information to the background of the series. And little or none of that information is presented in a straightforward manner either. It is heavily stylised, but there is no reason to assume anything is distorted or exaggerated enough to actually be wrong. That wouldn't make sense.

No, its simply evidence that a woman's voice is not self-evidently a woman's voice when muffled by a helm. And in deliberate disguise of the voice and who is to say how much people will be deceived and hear what they expect to hear?

Yes, and the three squires beating him up until Lyanna arrives would suggest he's rather weak and easy to bully...

Yet, it's the same HR which will later be one of the two only survivors of an epic fight against three of the best fighters in Westeros. The same HR who Ned thinks he owes his life to when he fought no less than Arthur Dayne, the man who Jaime said could beat the entire kingsguard "while taking a piss."

The same HR whose young daughter is quite competent at fighting. Hmmm, how old was HR at Harrenhal? According to the wiki, at least 16. And he would have been heir to Greywater Watch, of course.

I know the crannogmen are underestimated, but wasn't HR a young lord? Did he really meet the Starks by accident -thanks to Lyanna? Was he really beaten up by mere squires?

Now, it's possible the episode is merely supposed to be more fantasy-ish than other passages in the books. Maybe Lyanna is this Eowyn-like character who can kick ass for plot convenience.

Note that HR at ToJ need not have fought at all to save Ned's life there. We can't assume anything from our so very limited data there.

Also that at ToJ HR had been with a Westerosi army in teh field for the best part of a year and undoubtedly had the chance to have very different skillsets from the little crannogman. Again, we can't assume anything about the Little Crannogman from the ToJ event.

And the three squires set upon him by surprise while he was walking across a field in a land at peace. They were all bigger than him and they first snatched away his weapon before starting to beat on him. Just about anyone could be easily taken by such a circumstance. And while he is a young Lord, heir it seems to Greywatch, he's not a Westerosi young lord, trained to combat and battle and hand to hand fighting. He's a Crannogman young lord who grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees.

And why wouldn't Lyanna spotting this happen be an accident? Its GRRMs story accident remember. What is necessary for the plot happens, whether its a chance stumbling over a random beating in a field by a Stark girl, or three particualr knights being champions all together at just the right time.

All the stories where those sorts of 'coincidences' didn't happen? Well, they didn't become stories.

But wouldn't it be more logical to assume that the whole story is romanticized by Meera? That a mystery knight defeated three knights is fact, so there is certainly a grain of truth to it. But which parts are embellished or exaggerated? Which parts might be, in fact, not entirely true?

No, it would not, at least not to the extent you are suggesting. It clearly is romanticised, look at the tone and structure, but that doesn't mean the details are false. This is her family's oral history remember as well as a message from GRRM to us. In neither of those cases is outright lying useful, even if not everything needs to be clear, or even mentioned.

[Bael's Bastard]

The "booming voice" is qualified with "through his helm," and the only person who was there who has described such a voice was apparently the little crannogman to his now teenage children. It should be taken in that context. No matter how one slices it, the only real options are a 14-15 year old young woman and a little crannogman, and the only real named suspect seems to have been a 15 year old knight. The booming voices of giants like Robert and Donal are irrelevant to TKOTLT.