[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Jô Maltese]

Season 5, when answering Theon on having bedded another "monster" before, Sansa replies: "no, he has never touched me, he was always gentle with me" or something along these lines. And Tyrion + Sansa is also Ice and Fire if AJT is true (and pretty much a Beauty and the Beast story as well). 

[Khione]

Minor set ups or not, I hope to R'hllor they decided to ditch the two ships.

[Khione]

wtf? can't even voice an opinion on a fantasy ship? The site has stooped to censorship and violation of freedom of speech?

I guess only one thing can be lambasted with impunity.

[JonSnow4President]

3 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Season 5, when answering Theon on having bedded another "monster" before, Sansa replies: "no, he has never touched me, he was always gentle with me" or something along these lines. And Tyrion + Sansa is also Ice and Fire if AJT is true (and pretty much a Beauty and the Beast story as well). 

Que Le Cynge pointing out that it takes much more than pretty meets ugly for a Beauty and the Beast story.

2 minutes ago, Khione said:

Minor set ups or not, I hope to R'hllor they decided to ditch the two ships.

http://45.media.tumblr.com/4cdadd0baffd2cad2f1ad954cf3b0d1a/tumblr_nntzev5KIZ1qjrftro2_250.gif

Just this last season.

[Le Cygne]

Just now, JonSnow4President said:

Que Le Cynge pointing out that it takes much more than pretty meets ugly for a Beauty and the Beast story.

http://45.media.tumblr.com/4cdadd0baffd2cad2f1ad954cf3b0d1a/tumblr_nntzev5KIZ1qjrftro2_250.gif

Just this last season.

Exactly. And they set up Sansa and the Hound as Beauty and the Beast (a scene the author wrote):

http://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

[JonSnow4President]

Pray tell Khione, why do you dislike Jaime and Brienne so much?  (I can understand not liking the age aspects of SanSan).

 

Quote

 

"Why, I went to Tarth and saw her. I had six years on her, yet the wench could look me in the eye. She was a sow in silk, though most sows have bigger teats. When she tried to talk she almost choked on her own tongue. I gave her a rose and told her it was all that she would ever have from me." Connington glanced into the pit. "The bear was less hairy than that freak, I'll—"

Jaime's golden hand cracked him across the mouth so hard the other knight went stumbling down the steps. His lantern fell and smashed, and the oil spread out, burning. "You are speaking of a highborn lady, ser. Call her by her name. Call her Brienne."

Connington edged away from the spreading flames on his hands and knees. "Brienne. If it please my lord." He spat a glob of blood at Jaime's foot. "Brienne the Beauty."

 

The two pretty clearly have the hots for each other.

[UnmaskedLurker]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

You don't really know any of that for a fact.  His "gardener" approach could mean that he decided some time in the last few years even that Tyrion is a secret Targ, since outside of the world book, the hints are few and far between.  And I for one, would find it really strange if he had always thought of Tyrion as a bastard Targaryen, and still devoted so much time to the father/son dynamic, which will all be totally pointless in the end, and of course, also goes a long way to rehabilitate Tywin Lannister's treatment of Tyrion.

But in any case, that's still somewhat irrelevant to my general loss of faith in GRRM and his ability to finish the story in a satisfying way...if it turns out that Tyrion is a secret Targaryen, no matter at what time he made this decision, back in the 90s or in the last few years, I will still consider it really poor.

Whether it was a poor decision is completely subjective. So if you think it was a poor decision (and continue to think so even after reading the series to the end, assuming GRRM ever finishes), then for you, obviously, it was a poor decision. I would never try to minimize someone's subjective view about a story.

But when such a decision would have had to have been made is not really subjective. Assuming AJT is true, GRRM made the decision whenever he actually made the decision. And while we cannot know for a certainty, I just don't see how this development could have been something he came up with late in the process. If you go back to my OP in the ATJ thread in the book forum, many of the clues date back to GoT (my memory is not perfect, so maybe some these came later) -- for example, the mismatched eyes, the pale blond hair, the dragon obsession, the connection with the three having their mothers die in childbirth. We also have quotes from GoT that seems to point in the same direction (such as Tyrion telling Jon that all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes). All of these clues were laid out early. And GRRM's method of reveal starts more subtle and gets less so over time -- which is why the more obvious clues, in particular the one's regarding Joanna and Aerys. came later.

And the Gardener approach does not really allow for a complete re-write of the endgame. GRRM loves to be able to point people back to foreshadowing from long before a big reveal. That approach only works if he sticks to the main plot point all along and has the main plot points worked out from the beginning.  When GRRM says that he does not lie to his readers, that is what he means. He means that he must set out the main plot points so that he can lay down the foreshadowing -- and then he must stick to those plot points because otherwise the prior foreshadowing would turn out to be a "lie" to the readers.

So maybe the decision to have two "hidden" Targs be two of the heroes who save the world was a bad idea. Or maybe the Tyrion relationship with Tywin should have been written differently so that the AJT reveal was not so undermining of that dynamic. Everyone is free to decide those issues for himself or herself as they are purely subjective in nature. But I just don't see any realistic possibility that the AJT decision was made recently. It must have been made from the beginning -- and it almost certainly was made before GRRM wrote any of the passages involving the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. If AJT is true, it simply may mean that GRRM has -- and has always had -- a different view than you on what makes for a good story.

[Jô Maltese]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Exactly. And they set up Sansa and the Hound as Beauty and the Beast (a scene the author wrote):

http://romancingthecage.tumblr.com/post/90157713456

Nice. Makes one think indeed, although I think it has more to do with GRRM's passion for (French) cinema classics (re. his Jean Cocteau cinema in Santa Fe), a tribute to this movie if you want, than hinting at the outcome (too obvious and too plagiarism for him in a way).

[Khione]

12 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Que Le Cynge pointing out that it takes much more than pretty meets ugly for a Beauty and the Beast story.

http://45.media.tumblr.com/4cdadd0baffd2cad2f1ad954cf3b0d1a/tumblr_nntzev5KIZ1qjrftro2_250.gif

Just this last season.

so they're friends. Can't they be? That's all I take away from that scene. Or any with the two of them together. They don't have to be hopelessly and crazily in love.

Sansan is straight f#%*&^ *& (excuse me, I was warned not to use cuss words like we're a on a children's site)

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Whether it was a poor decision is completely subjective. So if you think it was a poor decision (and continue to think so even after reading the series to the end, assuming GRRM ever finishes), then for you, obviously, it was a poor decision. I would never try to minimize someone's subjective view about a story.

But when such a decision would have had to have been made is not really subjective. Assuming AJT is true, GRRM made the decision whenever he actually made the decision. And while we cannot know for a certainty, I just don't see how this development could have been something he came up with late in the process. If you go back to my OP in the ATJ thread in the book forum, many of the clues date back to GoT (my memory is not perfect, so maybe some these came later) -- for example, the mismatched eyes, the pale blond hair, the dragon obsession, the connection with the three having their mothers die in childbirth. We also have quotes from GoT that seems to point in the same direction (such as Tyrion telling Jon that all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes). All of these clues were laid out early. And GRRM's method of reveal starts more subtle and gets less so over time -- which is why the more obvious clues, in particular the one's regarding Joanna and Aerys. came later.

And the Gardener approach does not really allow for a complete re-write of the endgame. GRRM loves to be able to point people back to foreshadowing from long before a big reveal. That approach only works if he sticks to the main plot point all along and has the main plot points worked out from the beginning.  When GRRM says that he does not lie to his readers, that is what he means. He means that he must set out the main plot points so that he can lay down the foreshadowing -- and then he must stick to those plot points because otherwise the prior foreshadowing would turn out to be a "lie" to the readers.

So maybe the decision to have two "hidden" Targs be two of the heroes who save the world was a bad idea. Or maybe the Tyrion relationship with Tywin should have been written differently so that the AJT reveal was not so undermining of that dynamic. Everyone is free to decide those issues for himself or herself as they are purely subjective in nature. But I just don't see any realistic possibility that the AJT decision was made recently. It must have been made from the beginning -- and it almost certainly was made before GRRM wrote any of the passages involving the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. If AJT is true, it simply may mean that GRRM has -- and has always had -- a different view than you on what makes for a good story.

Tommen also has white blonde hair and I wouldn't really call it a dragon obsession either.  But, whatever, we're not going to agree here.  I think Tyrion as a secret Targ is a terrible, terrible idea whether he always had it, which I doubt, or whether he decided on it only in the last few years.  I think Doran Martell's master plan is pretty terrible also, and has drastically undermined the idea of him as some master plotter, and I think that's a retcon also.  I don't think it 'must have' been made from the beginning because as I said, outside of the world book the "hints" of Tyrion as a bastard are barely in the story at all.

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Khione said:

so they're friends. Can't they be? That's all I take away from that scene. Or any with the two of them together. They don't have to be hopelessly and crazily in love.

Sansan is straight f#%*&^ *& (excuse me, I was warned not to use cuss words like we're a on a children's site)

Since I'm reading a medeival set story and didn't have a problem with Dany to Drogo, why should I have a problem with Sansa to Sandor, a man she thinks of frequently after he has gone and misses him, who has gone out of his way to protect her?  

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

Tommen also has white blonde hair and I wouldn't really call it a dragon obsession either.  But, whatever, we're not going to agree here.  I think Tyrion as a secret Targ is a terrible, terrible idea whether he always had it, which I doubt, or whether he decided on it only in the last few years.  I think Doran Martell's master plan is pretty terrible also, and has drastically undermined the idea of him as some master plotter, and I think that's a retcon also.  I don't think it 'must have' been made from the beginning because as I said, outside of the world book the "hints" of Tyrion as a bastard are barely in the story at all.

I was determined to let you get the last word -- but then I felt that I had to point out that Tommen's hair turned blonde just like his siblings' hair as he got older. Tyrion's hair stayed pale into adulthood (I point this out in my OP in the hidden FAQ section). So Tyrion's hair color and Tommen's are no longer similar.

P.S. As to Doren Martell, he is a minor enough character that you might be right about him. I don't really have an opinion.

[Khione]

Dany and Drogo was as #@!$$ &* as SanSan. More so in the books as Dany was way younger. Don't want to know what was going through Martin's mind when he came up with that idea.. 

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, Khione said:

Dany and Drogo was as #@!$$ &* as SanSan. More so in the books as Dany was way younger. Don't want to know what was going through Martin's mind when he came up with that idea.. 

Maybe that it is a medieval society, and he assumes his readers can understand that a different culture may consider concepts of consent and adulthood to be different than our own, and that while these would be despicable actions in our own society, they may be normal in another one?

[Jô Maltese]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Tommen also has white blonde hair and I wouldn't really call it a dragon obsession either.  But, whatever, we're not going to agree here.  I think Tyrion as a secret Targ is a terrible, terrible idea whether he always had it, which I doubt, or whether he decided on it only in the last few years.  I think Doran Martell's master plan is pretty terrible also, and has drastically undermined the idea of him as some master plotter, and I think that's a retcon also.  I don't think it 'must have' been made from the beginning because as I said, outside of the world book the "hints" of Tyrion as a bastard are barely in the story at all.

Have you actually read the A+J=T threads? I will give you two of my favourite hints (credit to our lodger, Suzanna Stormborn):

Quote

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not." [think of a dwarf on a dragon’s back]

(...)

Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust.Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders."

"Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

 

Quote

“The substance flows through my veins, and lives in the heart of every pyromancer. We respect its power. But the common soldier, hmmmm, the crew of one of the queen's spitfires, say, in the unthinking frenzy of battle . . . any little mistake can bring catastrophe. That cannot be said too often. My father often told King Aerys as much, as his father told old King Jaehaerys."

"They must have listened," Tyrion said. "If they had burned the city down, someone would have told me. So your counsel is that we had best be careful?” 

[Grandfathers, fathers and sons…]

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, JonSnow4President said:

Maybe that it is a medieval society, and he assumes his readers can understand that a different culture may consider concepts of consent and adulthood to be different than our own, and that while these would be despicable actions in our own society, they may be normal in another one?

Yes, I think he obviously is trying to do that. But I think he also is trying to make us feel uncomfortable with our own views of the world. Inevitably, many people will start to identify with Dany as she falls in love with Drago, and some readers will start to excuse the relationship because Dany seems happy with it. But then such readers need to realize that someone of that age cannot possibly respond based on genuine notions of consent and any purported feelings of love toward Drago are not feelings that we would understand as being the basis for legitimizing their relationship. So readers get conflicted between escaping into the world where they root for the Dany/Drago relationship -- and returning to the real world where such a relationship, not matter what Dany might think, is a gross betrayal of her basic rights.

[JonSnow4President]

3 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Have you actually read the A+J=T threads? I will give you two of my favourite hints (credit to our lodger, Suzanna Stormborn):

 

 

These are less convincing to someone who doesn't believe than

Quote

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!" The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended.

 

[Khione]

Could be, whatever. But good thing D+D were aware of how much trouble sticking to the books regarding the age issue they'd have gone into.  Forget the public outrage, they'd have gone to jail if they had had some 13 year old actress play Dany.The aging up of the child characters has been beneficial. No problems with the law and it's been more believable for the show characters to have done all the things they have, unlike their book counterparts.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just now, JonSnow4President said:

These are less convincing to someone who doesn't believe than

 

I think you miss his point. His point is that IF AJT is correct, then the chances that these quotes are just a coincidence rather than evidence that GRRM planned AJT from the beginning seems highly unlikely. While they might not be proof of AJT or really proof of anything -- they are very strong evidence that if AJT is going to be the case -- GRRM was dropping little hints all the way back in Book 1 and Book 2. Cas Stark is not arguing that AJT is not true at all -- she is arguing that it might be a "retcon" or more recent decision by GRRM. These quotes are fairly good evidence that if GRRM is going with AJT, he always was going with AJT.

[JonSnow4President]

2 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I think you miss his point. His point is that IF AJT is correct, then the chances that these quotes are just a coincidence rather than evidence that GRRM planned AJT from the beginning seems highly unlikely. While they might not be proof of AJT or really proof of anything -- they are very strong evidence that if AJT is going to be the case -- GRRM was dropping little hints all the way back in Book 1 and Book 2. Cas Stark is not arguing that AJT is not true at all -- she is arguing that it might be a "retcon" or more recent decision by GRRM. These quotes are fairly good evidence that if GRRM is going with AJT, he always was going with AJT.

And my point is that I think they have ZERO to do with AJT.