[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[239JMFL34109]

8 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

All I had to do was "remember how Daenerys' older brother that started the war with Robert and Eddard kidnapped Eddard's sister and took her away"  Then a couple eyebrow raises, and it clicked for him.  

From the show, I can only remember "My mother died birthing me," and the "Your greatest joke" scene, but it's been awhile since I've rewatched more than the first 13 episodes (in the middle of a rewatch now, starting with episode 2.04 tonight)

And that's fine, I'm not trying to stop you from discussing it.  I'm just pointing out that it's one of those theories that isn't particularly good for debating because it's either you believe in what you're seeing or you don't.  You can't really try and factually argue "literary purpose," or what is "better" for the story.  

And once you've decided "That is the dumbest thing ever and subverts Tyrion's relationship with Tywin," or "That is the cleverest thing ever and really adds to/explains Tyrion's relationship with Tywin," I find that we're hard to convince otherwise.  

I don't think it is dumb but just how does it change tyrion's story? a long while back someone posted a theory about how they thought dany was actually rhaegar's daughter not his sister. I was like...So? it doesn't seem to change anything for her in the story if it were true. Kind of how i feel about A+J=T

I find it more probable in the show cause he seem like he is still looking for familial approval while in the Books he is talking about killing Tywin way back when he is camping alone with bronn. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

40 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Tywin dialogue was also followed right after by Tyrion's that he was his son.  So the fact that Ned is always referenced as Jon's dad but Tywin makes reference to not being Tyrion father proves tyrion is not his son would mean that Ned is jon's father? 

On the other hand "i have no son" or "you no son of mine" are fairly common lines to show that father disowning his son in fiction. Also it is ironic as Tyrion is the most like Tywin. Tywin a man so concerned with family legacy but he ignored or broke his children till they destroy that very legacy he was making. He missed that the best person to carry on the legacy was the Son he spurred. 

 

Even if that is true, it does not happen anywhere else on HBO's GOT that I recall....maybe I'm wrong but i can't think of another father/son incident where the father says 'you are no son of mine.'

 

SO even if it is common in fiction, it is a singular moment on the show.

[239JMFL34109]

2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Even if that is true, it does not happen anywhere else on HBO's GOT that I recall....maybe I'm wrong but i can't think of another father/son incident where the father says 'you are no son of mine.'

 

SO even if it is common in fiction, it is a singular moment on the show.

In the show it is again followed by "i am your son" as if this act is BECAUSE tyrion is his son not that it proves he is not. 

 

Tyrion himself mentions how his dad treats him like a bastard and tywin does say it once before in season three that "if i could prove that you are not mine" 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

6 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

In the show it is again followed by "i am your son" as if this act is BECAUSE tyrion is his son not that it proves he is not. 

Weeeelllll many of us on the AJT thread believe that you can say 'I am your son' or 'be the one most like Tywin' even if the son is adopted.  Tywin still raised him his whole life and he is the only father Tyrion ever knew.  And obviously at this point of show and books, Tyrion has no reason to doubt who his father his.  (which has always seemed odd to me) It seems as though none of the Lannister children have any idea that their mother had an affair with the Mad King.  when it was obviously widely known that she lived at KL as his mistress for a while (woiaf).

 

I feel the same way about the fact the no one (in universe) ever mentions or even suspects that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a child after a year of intercourse lol.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

question; does the 400 post count per thread rule still hold true since the forum has had all these updates??

[239JMFL34109]

2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Weeeelllll many of us on the AJT thread believe that you can say 'I am your son' or 'be the one most like Tywin' even if the son is adopted.  Tywin still raised him his whole life and he is the only father Tyrion ever knew.  And obviously at this point of show and books, Tyrion has no reason to doubt who his father his.  (which has always seemed odd to me) It seems as though none of the Lannister children have any idea that their mother had an affair with the Mad King.  when it was obviously widely known that she lived at KL as his mistress for a while (woiaf).

 

I feel the same way about the fact the no one (in universe) ever mentions or even suspects that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a child after a year of intercourse lol.

In the show that would not be true just look at the LF eyebrow moment to say some think there is more to it. 

As for the other thing i am saying there is nothing in the "you are no son of mine line" that really proves anything. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

In the show that would not be true just look at the LF eyebrow moment to say some think there is more to it. 

As for the other thing i am saying there is nothing in the "you are no son of mine line" that really proves anything. 

To that I would say that in fiction; the dying words of most characters are highly significant. We've made a list before from the books, and there are almost zero dying words that are meaningless. 

[239JMFL34109]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

To that I would say that in fiction; the dying words of most characters are highly significant. We've made a list before from the books, and there are almost zero dying words that are meaningless. 

I am not saying it is not significant? where did i say that? it is significant saying a lot about both characters in that moment were or not they are biologically related but it does not prove anything. I am saying it doesn't PROVE anything for the show. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

I am not saying it is not significant? where did i say that? it is significant saying a lot about both characters in that moment were or not they are biologically related but it does not prove anything. I am saying it doesn't PROVE anything for the show. 

of course, no one ever said it was proof, just a very strong hint/clue.  But I think it has the same meaning and impact on the show that it did in the book. 

[239JMFL34109]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

of course, no one ever said it was proof, just a very strong hint/clue.  But I think it has the same meaning and impact on the show that it did in the book. 

I think we just disagree on what that impact is in the end. 

 GRRM has a lot of space to cover in which he can make A+J=T meaningful to the story i just don't see it doing anything right now. 

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Cersei says the phrase 'my mother' about a dozen times, as does Tyrion.  I'd have to research to see if her name is ever mentioned.

Anyway we will be talking about AJT quite a lot here, even if you dont rate it as a solid 'theory'.  When reading the books for the first time I picked up on it before I picked up on RLJ, and I know many Shownly people who have no freaking idea what I am talking about when I try to explain about Rhaegar and Lyanna.  So I guess it is different for everyone.

Tyrion mentions Joanna by name in the Hardhome episode when he's talking about the Lannisters he's killed. 

If Kevan ends up being the one to bring up Tyrion possibly being a bastard this season I can see Cersei telling Jaime that this is "proof" that she was right all along and that Tyrion really is this 'ill-made' monster who is out to destroy their family and has been since day one. 

I was thinking about how show Jaime and Tyrion part on a much nicer note on the show and now that Jaime's feelings for Tyrion have changed, I wonder if the AJT reveal would reinforce the new feelings of hatred he has for Tyrion?

[239JMFL34109]

12 minutes ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

Tyrion mentions Joanna by name in the Hardhome episode when he's talking about the Lannisters he's killed. 

If Kevan ends up being the one to bring up Tyrion possibly being a bastard this season I can see Cersei telling Jaime that this is "proof" that she was right all along and that Tyrion really is this 'ill-made' monster who is out to destroy their family and has been since day one. 

I was thinking about how show Jaime and Tyrion part on a much nicer note on the show and now that Jaime's feelings for Tyrion have changed, I wonder if the AJT reveal would reinforce the new feelings of hatred he has for Tyrion?

Since they have not introduce tywin's sister i think he would take her role more. 

 jaime's and cersei's relationship get wreck from her crazy turn as the story continues with more and more of the prophecy coming true. She will blame Tyrion for her daughter even if all the proof points to dorne and Kavan will continue to point out how her "i am doing this for my children" is all BS 

[UnmaskedLurker]

14 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

I don't think it is dumb but just how does it change tyrion's story? a long while back someone posted a theory about how they thought dany was actually rhaegar's daughter not his sister. I was like...So? it doesn't seem to change anything for her in the story if it were true. Kind of how i feel about A+J=T

I find it more probable in the show cause he seem like he is still looking for familial approval while in the Books he is talking about killing Tywin way back when he is camping alone with bronn. 

Are you serious? You really believe that if AJT is correct that it really does not change any aspect of Tyrion's story? In this thread and in my AJT thread in the book section, we have been discussing the significance of how it would affect the story for about a year and a half. I have been promising to write a separate section addressing why AJT matters in the OP for my AJT thread in the book section, but admittedly, I have not gotten around to writing it yet (I really hope to, but no promises), but here is what I can do off the top of my head (I am sure I will forget some important ones, but hopefully others will chip in):

1) Particularly in the books, Tyrion is at a low point -- wallowing in self pity. He killed his father who never loved Tyrion -- he is being hunted -- he is alienated from his family -- he does not belong anywhere --  he has been cheated out of his birthright as Heir to CR -- etc. etc. Almost all of that changes and gets a "reset" if Tyrion learns he really is the bastard son of Aerys. Tyrion realizes why Tywin treated Tyrion the way Tywin did. Tyrion now has new relatives to get to know and become his family (Dany and eventually Jon). Tyrion's entire self image potentially changes -- he no longer is Heir to CR -- he is now only a bastard. But he is not bound to just look to the Lannisters as family. He can now identify himself as Blood of the Dragon -- as a dragonseed. He can think about having a different purpose in his life.

2) More fundamental , as I tried to explain above -- if AJT is correct, it is correct because it has to be correct for GRRM's endgame to work as it needs to work. If AJT is correct it is because the story ultimately is about how the family that was deposed in Robert's Rebellion is the family that will supply the necessary "prophecized saviors" to win the War for the Dawn 2.0. Tyrion having blood of the dragon will become necessary for him to be a head of the dragon and bond with a dragon. Without AJT, Tyrion does not have Dragonlord blood -- Tyrion arguably cannot be a "Head of the Dragon" (the Dragon must have Three Heads) - who have been foretold to save the world. I believe that the entire endgame for the series -- the gathering of disparate forces from across the world to set aside the petty differences and come together to battle the real threat -- depends in part on Tyrion learning he is a Targ bastard -- becoming a Head of the Dragon -- binding with a dragon -- becoming a dragonrider -- become a war general -- fight side-by-side with his half-sister and nephew -- etc., etc. All of these developments potentially hinge on AJT and matter quite a bit.

So when you indicate that AJT won't matter -- I respectively and emphatically disagree. If true -- it will matter to Tyrion personally and it will be instrumental in the development of the story and how it unfolds as it moves toward the endgame.

14 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

question; does the 400 post count per thread rule still hold true since the forum has had all these updates??

While enforcement seems to have become uneven, it is not entirely non-existent. What I have been doing with the AJT thread in the book section is after reaching 400 posts, I simply start the next version, add a link in a new post at the end of the prior version telling people to start using the new version and send an alert (by going to the OP of the old version, clicking on the report post button and asking the mods to lock the thread because I have started the next version). They have been pretty prompt in responding to my reports and locking the old thread.

[Jô Maltese]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

(...)

but hopefully others will chip in):

(...)

2) More fundamental , as I tried to explain above -- if AJT is correct, it is correct because it has to be correct for GRRM's endgame to work as it needs to work. (...) fight side-by-side with his half-sister and nephew -- etc., etc.

(...)

Ok UL I do chip in 

Tyrion with AJT becomes the complete half-man (and half-brother) and paradoxically it helps him find his true identity and accept himself as such (half-man, half-dragon, half-lion). It also gives him some weight to eventually claim / seize the throne, in particular if Dany legitimates him as a Targaryen... Which leads me to a significant "AJT endgame". 

Personally I have always thought that Tyrion and Sansa will end up as King and Queen. Nothing solid of course, it's just an intuition based on how their arc is developed throughout the series and how good leaders they were during the Blackwater battle - so no need to reply to show me I am wrong, I know I probably am. 

EDIT: my theory is slightly reinforced by the TV show where there is much more focus on Sansa's arc and her evolving feelings toward Tyrion.

[JonSnow4President]

1 hour ago, Jo Maltese said:

Ok UL I do chip in 

Tyrion with AJT becomes the complete half-man (and half-brother) and paradoxically it helps him find his true identity and accept himself as such (half-man, half-dragon, half-lion). It also gives him some weight to eventually claim / seize the throne, in particular if Dany legitimates him as a Targaryen... Which leads me to a significant "AJT endgame". 

Personally I have always thought that Tyrion and Sansa will end up as King and Queen. Nothing solid of course, it's just an intuition based on how their arc is developed throughout the series and how good leaders they were during the Blackwater battle - so no need to reply to show me I am wrong, I know I probably am. 

EDIT: my theory is slightly reinforced by the TV show where there is much more focus on Sansa's arc and her evolving feelings toward Tyrion.

So now we not only cheapen Tyrion's story with it, we lose one of GRRM's beauty and the beast stories (SanSan, other being Brienne and Jaime).  

Further proof that we're coming away with vastly different readings of the text.  

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

So now we not only cheapen Tyrion's story with it, we lose one of GRRM's beauty and the beast stories (SanSan, other being Brienne and Jaime).  

Further proof that we're coming away with vastly different readings of the text.  

I don't think Tyrion and Sansa will end up together, and I do not at all see any feeling for him that is evolving in Show Sansa...but I do think they're a good chance Tyrion turns out to be a Targaryen as much as that's going to suck...but then I've sort of lost faith in the author's ability to finish his story in a good way, he has too many pressures and distractions that are, IMO, causing him to over think things and to try too hard to surprise the reader.

[UnmaskedLurker]

35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think Tyrion and Sansa will end up together, and I do not at all see any feeling for him that is evolving in Show Sansa...but I do think they're a good chance Tyrion turns out to be a Targaryen as much as that's going to suck...but then I've sort of lost faith in the author's ability to finish his story in a good way, he has too many pressures and distractions that are, IMO, causing him to over think things and to try too hard to surprise the reader.

I am confused. I thought you acknowledged that if AJT is correct, then GRRM had AJT planned by the time he originally wrote GoT, and Tyrion as Targ bastard is integral to GRRM's vision of the endgame. If that is the case, then Tyrion as Targ bastard cannot be based on "pressures and distractions" that "cause him to over think things and try too hard to surprise the reader." Rather, AJT would be the result of GRRM setting out to write a story that in the end you think was not particularly well conceived and that GRRM should have intended a different ending that would have been better or should have realized that his original concept was leading to a plot development that would weaken the narrative concerning Tyrion and therefore completely re-conceive the endgame.

GRRM's failure to see from the start that Tyrion as Targ bastard was a bad idea -- or GRRM's failure to come up with a completely different story arc for Tyrion than originally conceived -- cannot be attributed to pressures or distractions or over thinking or a desire to surprise the reader. Assuming AJT to be correct, it would stem from GRRM being determined to stick to his original vision for the series and tell the story that he has always intended to tell since he sat down to write GoT.

Again, I am NOT talking about being based on the original outline that was leaked -- but based on whatever revised outline he ultimately used when he actually wrote GoT. This out certainly must have been substantially different than that original outline, but I suspect it was at least as detailed, if not more so, in terms of how the basic plot points from beginning to ending of the entire series was intended to go. He certainly had such an outline done by the time HBO went into production because he had to share it with D&D so that they could finish the show in case GRRM died or, as occurred, he failed to finish the books on time. So whatever Tyrion's destiny may be -- GRRM knew it and told it to D&D before HBO ever started making any shows.

GRRM has known since he wrote GoT where he intended each major character's story arc to go from beginning to end. As I understand his process, he only outlines the basic plot points.  He does not outline or pre-decide how to get from plot point to plot point. That is why his writing takes so long. For example, he knows that Dany needs to learn the difficulties of trying to rule -- but he does not know what those difficulties might be (leading to the Meereesean knot). But his decision to make Tyrion the son of Aerys -- if such a decision has been made by GRRM -- is not the result of anything that has gone on in the last few years. It would be based on a decision he made about 20 years ago. So if Tyrion as a Targ sucks -- then, assuming ATJ to be correct -- GRRM was always determined to write a story that you thought sucks, even before he became subject to any pressures or distractions or over thinking or desire to surprise the reader.

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

So now we not only cheapen Tyrion's story with it, we lose one of GRRM's beauty and the beast stories (SanSan, other being Brienne and Jaime).  

Further proof that we're coming away with vastly different readings of the text.  

Yeah, that's all wrong for Tyrion's story, too. And a disaster for Sansa's story. SanSan and Jaime/Brienne are already big in the books, and have a shot at more on the show, too.

56 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think Tyrion and Sansa will end up together, and I do not at all see any feeling for him that is evolving in Show Sansa...

They threw out the marriage to Tyrion. No evolving feelings. On the season 4 recap, they said "marrying Tyrion was the worst day of Sansa's life." And everyone honors him on the show, even Daario.

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I am confused. I thought you acknowledged that if AJT is correct, then GRRM had AJT planned by the time he originally wrote GoT, and Tyrion as Targ bastard is integral to GRRM's vision of the endgame. If that is the case, then Tyrion as Targ bastard cannot be based on "pressures and distractions" that "cause him to over think things and try too hard to surprise the reader." Rather, AJT would be the result of GRRM setting out to write a story that in the end you think was not particularly well conceived and that GRRM should have intended a different ending that would have been better or should have realized that his original concept was leading to a plot development that would weaken the narrative concerning Tyrion and therefore completely re-conceive the endgame.

GRRM's failure to see from the start that Tyrion as Targ bastard was a bad idea -- or GRRM's failure to come up with a completely different story arc for Tyrion than originally conceived -- cannot be attributed to pressures or distractions or over thinking or a desire to surprise the reader. Assuming AJT to be correct, it would stem from GRRM being determined to stick to his original vision for the series and tell the story that he has always intended to tell since he sat down to write GoT.

Again, I am NOT talking about being based on the original outline that was leaked -- but based on whatever revised outline he ultimately used when he actually wrote GoT. This out certainly must have been substantially different than that original outline, but I suspect it was at least as detailed, if not more so, in terms of how the basic plot points from beginning to ending of the entire series was intended to go. He certainly had such an outline done by the time HBO went into production because he had to share it with D&D so that they could finish the show in case GRRM died or, as occurred, he failed to finish the books on time. So whatever Tyrion's destiny may be -- GRRM knew it and told it to D&D before HBO ever started making any shows.

GRRM has known since he wrote GoT where he intended each major character's story arc to go from beginning to end. As I understand his process, he only outlines the basic plot points.  He does not outline or pre-decide how to get from plot point to plot point. That is why his writing takes so long. For example, he knows that Dany needs to learn the difficulties of trying to rule -- but he does not know what those difficulties might be (leading to the Meereesean knot). But his decision to make Tyrion the son of Aerys -- if such a decision has been made by GRRM -- is not the result of anything that has gone on in the last few years. It would be based on a decision he made about 20 years ago. So if Tyrion as a Targ sucks -- then, assuming ATJ to be correct -- GRRM was always determined to write a story that you thought sucks, even before he became subject to any pressures or distractions or over thinking or desire to surprise the reader.

You don't really know any of that for a fact.  His "gardener" approach could mean that he decided some time in the last few years even that Tyrion is a secret Targ, since outside of the world book, the hints are few and far between.  And I for one, would find it really strange if he had always thought of Tyrion as a bastard Targaryen, and still devoted so much time to the father/son dynamic, which will all be totally pointless in the end, and of course, also goes a long way to rehabilitate Tywin Lannister's treatment of Tyrion.

But in any case, that's still somewhat irrelevant to my general loss of faith in GRRM and his ability to finish the story in a satisfying way...if it turns out that Tyrion is a secret Targaryen, no matter at what time he made this decision, back in the 90s or in the last few years, I will still consider it really poor.

[JonSnow4President]

I hate to say it, but they've set up each of them in varying degrees (although with them, who knows how much they'll remember what they've done).  

ETA:  Who am I kidding, I love pointing out that needlessly antagonistic people are wrong, particularly with something they claim to enjoy more than me.

ETA2: The comment this responded too has since been deleted.  Sorry to subsequent readers if it seems out of place.