(Book Spoilers) Was it done this was so as not to tarnish...?

[Balerion06]

First of all, if all they wanted was a shocking moment, wouldn't Daznak's Pit have been enough? Second of all, Shireen's burning was done for plot, not shock value. There will be repercussions in the story as a result, and these repercussions will push the plot forward.

Considering this is D&D we're talking about, and we have the end of Episode 6 as a shining example of their "shock vs plot/narrative/common sense" priorities, I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

[jet199]

I never got the whole "Mel will resurrect Jon" thing. Mel and Val in the books were very much Jon's fire and ice sides in human form and the resolution was always going to be that he would choose/be controlled neither but would find his own way. At the moment I think it's more likely that Selyse will defect to Jon than Mel. But really it isn't about logical character progression, it is about fans wanting someone to confirm Jon is AAR in a really obvious way rather than having to wait for GRRM to go through his hint, hint louder, hint really loud but never actually completely confirm routine. Also, not everything is going to be about Jon, he's my favourite character but I don't see why people think every powerful or good character is going to end up on his side just because R=L=J or because he is sometimes nice to people.

[John Suburbs]

It's worth noting that Selyse is a Florent, which traces its lineage back to House Gardener who were Kings of the Reach before Aegon showed up with his dragons. I'm not sure how many generations have to pass before king's blood loses its power, but she has some nonetheless.

[SerRiley]

Puzzled by some of the notions posed...

Why would Mel (in the book) need to burn Shireen to save John? Miros didn't need any sacrifice to bring back Dondarrion did he?

I don't think John will get resurrected by Mel in the book. I think once you get resurrected by the Reds, you are not quite a 'real' person anymore. I think John will survive in the book (without resurrecting).

We might assume Shireen in the book will be burned based on comments by the show runners (quoting GRRM). When and why are anything but clear. If she does get burned in the book, no doubt it will be by the urging of Selyse (to save Stannis, whom she thinks is lost?). Who knows, Selyse could have the same change of heart once the deed is being done.

[Chaircat Meow]

This is along the lines that I've been thinking.

We know, now, that Shireen will be given to the flames. However, we also know D&D changed the story and put Mel, Shireen and Selyse with Stannis on the road to WF, while GrrM left them all at the wall with Jon. That's very significant. We know Stannis will not be aided by Mel in taking WF, but suspect someone will need to revive Jon. It does make sense the show has transmuted Mel's sacrifice of Shireen on behalf of Jon to Mel aiding Stannis in front of WF.

And, let me tell you, Shireen being sacrificed to bring Jon back is classic 'jonning.' Jon gets something good because someone else does something big/momentous, and he takes no decision himself.

[lojzelote]

I've got a very different impression. That is, Melisandre won't have anything to do with Jon's resurection (and I said it as someone who used to think that it is a no brainer that she'll do it). In fact, now I think he won't need resurection at all. And as for Shireen's sacrifice, if the show is anything to go by, those two events will be completely unlinked. I mean, how would it even work on the show? They'd need to explain the resurection somwhow and what would they say? "Oh Jon, you've come back to life because Shireen had been burned before you even died for a purpose unrelated to your well-being"? Sounds stupid.

Not that I ever understood why people think that Mel would sacrifice Shireen for Jon when she could give him the kiss of life instead? She doesn't even think he's AA, that's Stannis for her, and she wouldn't want to piss him off by killing his only child without his knowledge, would she?

I know there's this "he'll raise because he's the true AA when Mel sacrices Shireen for Stannis blah blah", but honestly, I've always found it a bit too hard to swallow because I don't believe that someone in this universe could be born as AA, he would become AA during the course of their life, and Jon met none of the AA requirements so far, so... I don't see it.

Nah, I think that Stannis will sacrifice Shireen for some reason completely unrelated to Jon, and something terrible will happen because she is touched by the greyscale.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

^^ I agree. Doesn't make sense to have Mel raise him at all at this point. Which means he won't be resurrected or he isn't dead? Both Seem wrong. Here's hoping George surprises us. I can't predict what will happen.

[Chaircat Meow]

I've got a very different impression. That is, Melisandre won't have anything to do with Jon's resurection (and I said it as someone who used to think that it is a no brainer that she'll do it). In fact, now I think he won't need resurection at all. And as for Shireen's sacrifice, if the show is anything to go by, those two events will be completely unlinked. I mean, how would it even work on the show? They'd need to explain the resurection somwhow and what would they say? "Oh Jon, you've come back to life because Shireen had been burned before you even died for a purpose unrelated to your well-being"? Sounds stupid.

I still think Jon will need a resurrection. Why else have the Beric and Stoneheart resurrections? And didn't Beric basically sacrifice himself for SH, since she'd been dead so long. So Mel might need more than the kiss of life.

I don't think the show will link Jon's resurrection and Shireen's death, no, I think they've diverged on this.

Not that I ever understood why people think that Mel would sacrifice Shireen for Jon when she could give him the kiss of life instead? She doesn't even think he's AA, that's Stannis for her, and she wouldn't want to piss him off by killing his only child without his knowledge, would she?

Because magic works through sacrifice. She might not raise Jon thinking he's AA, or she might come round to that view. She has been seeing him in her visions.

I know there's this "he'll raise because he's the true AA when Mel sacrices Shireen for Stannis blah blah", but honestly, I've always found it a bit too hard to swallow because I don't believe that someone in this universe could be born as AA, he would become AA during the course of their life, and Jon met none of the AA requirements so far, so... I don't see it.

Oh, I think he'll meet them, its not even that hard.

Nah, I think that Stannis will sacrifice Shireen for some reason completely unrelated to Jon, and something terrible will happen because she is touched by the greyscale.

Possibility, but it does involve Stannis getting back to where Shireen is, and Shireen surviving the battle at the wall etc. You could be right, but it looks as though if it happens your way it will be quite some way into book six. That doesn't fit so well with D&D bringing it forward to now.

The thing that makes me think I'm wrong is hearing that Carice van Houten says she has another scene with Jon this season.

[Lady Darry]

The thing that makes me think I'm wrong is hearing that Carice van Houten says she has another scene with Jon this season.

She never said that, she said that there will be another huge scene with her. She didn't say it will be with Jon, that was our interpretation. She was probably just talking about Shireen.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

I don't think they were trying to whitewash Jon Snow, but I don think they have something against Stannis. It's not just that they've made him kill his only child, they refuse to include any humanizing moments for him. And the only one they have included was the now pointless scene in episode 4.

Benioff and Wiess just really hate Stannis, or don't understand him at all.

[lojzelote]

I still think Jon will need a resurrection. Why else have the Beric and Stoneheart resurrections? And didn't Beric basically sacrifice himself for SH, since she'd been dead so long. So Mel might need more than the kiss of life.

I don't think the show will link Jon's resurrection and Shireen's death, no, I think they've diverged on this.

Because magic works through sacrifice. She might not raise Jon thinking he's AA, or she might come round to that view. She has been seeing him in her visions.

Oh, I think he'll meet them, its not even that hard.

Possibility, but it does involve Stannis getting back to where Shireen is, and Shireen surviving the battle at the wall etc. You could be right, but it looks as though if it happens your way it will be quite some way into book six. That doesn't fit so well with D&D bringing it forward to now.

The thing that makes me think I'm wrong is hearing that Carice van Houten says she has another scene with Jon this season.

Well, why to have Beric and Cat resurrections if Jon's resurrection should be very different? IIRC Beric and Cat were raised by the kiss of life, without any sacrifice needed. Yea, Beric had to pass his life energy to Cat because he wasn't a red priest (most likely), but Thoros raised Beric with generic magic just fine, without any sacrifice.

The show will have to explain how Jon was resurrected. I don't see any reason as to why they wouldn't use the canon explanation. Unless you think they're going to skip that plot point entirely... which I don't think they would do. They change plenty of things, but this would be like skipping Bran's fall.

Again, why not to use the kiss? Seems much simpler, and if she really felt like burning someone, why not use someone else than Shireen? Why not Monster or that wannabe wildling king or one of his daughters? She's got many viable options which wouldn't antagonize Stannis and Selyse..

He should have met them before he died, though. In my interpretation, that he has a chance to become AA later, wouldn't make him AA now, just one of the candidates.

I think that Stannis and Shireen will reunite again. They're both in the North, it would be easy for the author to put them back together. D&D just might have rushed it for a quicker progress... similarly like many people think that Sansa will go to WF in The Winds. The context is very different, but the thing still happens. They also don't seem to like Stannis much, so perhaps they just want to be done with his storyline soon.

[Chaircat Meow]

She never said that, she said that there will be another huge scene with her. She didn't say it will be with Jon, that was our interpretation. She was probably just talking about Shireen.

Oh, good, thanks for that.

[Chaircat Meow]

The show will have to explain how Jon was resurrected. I don't see any reason as to why they wouldn't use the canon explanation. Unless you think they're going to skip that plot point entirely... which I don't think they would do. They change plenty of things, but this would be like skipping Bran's fall.

If there is a resurrection it will involve heavy magic, and maybe warging (if Jon's consciousness is preserved in the wolf - as the prologue hints). That might just be hard for them to do, so they could skip it.

[Dragon in the North]

I don't think they were trying to whitewash Jon Snow, but I don think they have something against Stannis. It's not just that they've made him kill his only child, they refuse to include any humanizing moments for him. And the only one they have included was the now pointless scene in episode 4.

Benioff and Wiess just really hate Stannis, or don't understand him at all.

They've actually included several humanizing moments: Stannis showing remorse for Renly's murder, his first scene with Shireen, him giving Davos his condolences for the loss of his son, and the scene you mentioned.

[olibar]

Benioff and Wiess just really hate Stannis, or don't understand him at all.

It seems like they understand him perfectly. He is a person who looks to uphold the law by sacrificing others, not himself. In the end, he may be right, but that won't mean he's a good person or a hero. In a typical fantasy story, Stannis would see the error of his way and sacrafice himself for the greater good.

In GRRM's world, I would bet that his inability to see his tragic flaw will either get him killed, or if he really wants to subvert things, bring Stannis the Iron Throne in the end while making it clear to the reader that his assention is no better than if the WW had won, ie tens of thousands of Westerosi being burned at the stake in order to "save" them or the kingdom.