The Final Nail In The Coffin For The Nights Watch

[Jay Merlan]

AND most importantly? He was on the wrong side of the wall and Alliser let him and the wildlings in!

This.

I can't wrap my head around the fact, that Thorne let the wildlings trough in the first place, just so he could "punish" Jon for collaborating with them. Wut?

[hallam]

Jons reaction to Sam breaking his Nights watch vow... Nice one bro! you take that babe South even though it takes years to train to be a maester and we are basically at war now. Ghost was off fighting crime or something...

Well Sam did point out that technically the oath doesn't prohibit sex, only the having children part.

And Sam does not need to become a Maester right now. What he can do is to go talk to the maesters and get them to help with the research.

^^This.

I'm of the opinion that the cliffhanger in the book was cheap, and doubly so in the show. The only reason to kill Jon Snow is so he can fulfill some AA prophecy and be released from his vow to the Night's Watch. The first isn't a major factor in the books, and the second could be accomplished by having the NIght's Watch disbanded when the wall falls. If Jon needs to be released in order to rule the seven kingdoms, it won't matter until the WW are defeated and the Night's Watch is a moot point anyway.

I see no reason to have killed Jon except to provide a cheap shock. Raising people from the dead is a poor narrative device that GRRM has relied on too much, unfortunately.

I agree that the book cliffhanger is bad and that GRRM has way too many undead characters. And I think that is one of the reasons the show is better than the books, so far we haven't seen any main character or even a secondary come back to life. Berek and the Mountain are third tier at best.

This concern is surely the reason Stoneheart was cut. The fans would have loved it but doing that would risk people say Jon's return was jumping the shark.

I think what they did instead was show five deaths that turn out not to be. As Jaqen said, you took the wrong life. Then we see him dead and then he is suddenly alive. Then Myranda is killed and Sansa and Theon jump to certain death.

Think about the Sansa/Theon death for a minute, it is obvious they should be dead but everyone is going to accept that they survive. In fact it is expected they survive.

GRRM and D&D have shocked us in the past by killing off characters and not bringing them back. Mother's Mercy might be the time they all come back. (apart from Trant and Sylese of course).

Does 'you need the bad pussy' in the Dorne sequence mean Tyene slipped some antidote to Bronn to give to the twincest Lannister that he needs if they are going to avert a war?

WAIT!! So you're saying that Stannis will take the black?!?! :)

Oh very good. I think you are on to something.

Stannis doesn't beg for mercy, he doesn't want mercy. He freely admits his crimes because he want's Brienne to kill him. Making him take the black would be a logical atonement for his crimes. And he can help with Sansa's escape.

So Brienne finds Sansa and takes Stannis up to the wall to take the black and to return Sansa to her brother who is LC. By the time they get there, the Wildings have killed the remaining nights watch and are preparing to burn the bodies with Jon on top. The entire watch is dead. Stannis swears the oath anyway to keep his promise to Brienne. He automatically becomes LC as he is the only member alive.

Stannis reveals Mel's crimes. They put Mel on the bonfire as well. Crackle Crackle. If witch blood can bring stone dragons to life, it can bring Jon back from the dead.

Stonking if this happens.

[hallam]

999th lord commander will likely be Alliser Thorne and his time at command will probably be shorter than Jon's.

Who will be the 1000th?

Stannis.

[jet199]

They wont have time for an election, the wildling's will kill them all before dawn. Then Stannis will sort them out and become the 999th.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I think some of the Wildlings like Jon, but many of them could care less if he is killed.

[Nosnivel]

^^This.

I'm of the opinion that the cliffhanger in the book was cheap, and doubly so in the show. The only reason to kill Jon Snow is so he can fulfill some AA prophecy and be released from his vow to the Night's Watch. The first isn't a major factor in the books, and the second could be accomplished by having the NIght's Watch disbanded when the wall falls. If Jon needs to be released in order to rule the seven kingdoms, it won't matter until the WW are defeated and the Night's Watch is a moot point anyway.

I see no reason to have killed Jon except to provide a cheap shock. Raising people from the dead is a poor narrative device that GRRM has relied on too much, unfortunately.

What really annoys me about this is that almost 20 years ago, when I first read "A Game of Thrones" I spent many pages and chapters and years waiting to find out that Ned wasn't really dead.

It took me a long, long, time to give up that hope.

[King_Slayer]

Theres not much to say that hasn't been said, however, I don't think I've seen mention of what the implications would be if Stannis isn't dead (I mean really, we didn't see him die...) and he made his way back to the Wall which shouldn't be that hard considering Mel made it in what seemed like a few hours although with no real frame of reference, it's hard to tell. I know Stannis doesn't have much of a force left to command but don't forget it was his ships, crewed by his men that went to Hardhome specifically to save the Free Folk so in that sense Tormund and the gang do "owe" him. I'm not saying bend the knee because we know how well that notion goes over with the Wildlings, but they are already going to be uber pissed that the FTW fellows have killed/stabbed (whatever) the man who promised them safety, food, land in the gift, etc. I think Stannis will return to the Wall with Sansa (Brienne) and Theon in tow, shortly after Mel gives Jon the kiss of life and he'll kill Mel if Davos or the mutineers (assuming they're still alive) who would be pissed that she undid their handiwork haven't done it themselves already.

Idk... Just a thought but a lot less far fetched and reaching than a lot of other theories I have read. At least in my opinion. Any feedback or responses in regards to if I've forgotten something that wouldn't let some or all of these things from playing out is welcome - my memory isn't infallible.

[King_Slayer]

They wont have time for an election, the wildling's will kill them all before dawn. Then Stannis will sort them out and become the 999th.

I like this train of thought also. Only time will tell though. I Know the next book won't be out this year but at least if we had a definitive release date at all to hang on to, I think a lot of us would feel a lot better. Lord knows that some of us have already been waiting nearly 20 years for this saga to play out. I'll be sad when it ends but it can't be worse than the waiting.

[Hajk]

I wonder if they will actually follow the Julius Caesar plot line further. The elements are there: A group of elites decides to assassinate a leader who is pursuing a course of action that runs contrary to centuries of tradition. However, they underestimate the leader's popularity in certain sections (i.e. the common people, the analogue here being the Wildlings and Jon's supporters in the NW). They kill him in the name of tradition. But one of the leader's lieutenants (Marc Anthony) is able to turn the public rage against them.

The only thing that is missing is the Marc Anthony figure. Could Edd pull it off? Could Tormund? Could we wait for a few episodes and then see Sansa pull it off?

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

The line "can't see the forest through the trees fits"

They are morons. But what do you expect from a bunch of rapists and criminals. They only think about now.

Honestly I hope Wun Wun's Ser Paetric moment is on Allister. I know it's past but it would still be nice to see him rip Allister apart and beat Olly into the ground with him.

[Les Météores D]

Agreed.

This is one of my biggest gripes with the show is that they do not care as much about characterization. Having Alliser be involved has really irked me. Having Ghost rescue Sam while Jon was gone and Ghost would have been with him. There is no consistency in how the characters are portrayed and how they would act.

I do agree that this is the proverbial nail in the coffin for the NW both on the show and in the books. It's just a matter of time for it to all play out.

Thorne was hostile towards Jon since day one, there's nothing inconsistent about his characterization, him having a change of heart and backing Jon's pro-wildling policies would be weird. He felt Jon was traitor and an oathbreaker and acted on it rightfully (in his mind). He also let the wildlings pass through the wall probably because of Stannis and his army, who helped Jon rescue them. Once Mel came back, the mutineers must have realized the Boltons would punish them too in retaliation. Thorne played the game, a short-sighted one but that's the point: Jon sees the big picture but is oblivious about the reality of his surroundings.

Ghost was probably locked up, like in the book, besides Gilly and Sam were attacked inside. I agree it's not well executed on the show (both scenes) but the reason is simply 'cliffhanger': we're supposed to believe Ghost might have been killed too.

[Dragon of Ice and Fire]

999th lord commander will likely be Alliser Thorne and his time at command will probably be shorter than Jon's.

Who will be the 1000th?

I think it'd be fitting for Alliser Thorne to take up the mantel right before the NW gets destroyed.

There's probably won't be as 1000th commander. Maybe the WW will destroy the NW and the Wall, and at the end of the series a new order is set up to protect the realms of men. A new order with dragons. *okay, slightly crackpot theory...*

[Benoitthegr8]

This.

I can't wrap my head around the fact, that Thorne let the wildlings trough in the first place, just so he could "punish" Jon for collaborating with them. Wut?

I agree, if they were plotting to kill Jon anyway, why let the wildlings through the gate, just let them rot at the wall... then the wildling army would've most likely done the KW dirty work for them and killed Jon anyway. Letting the wildling threat though the gate and then killing the one who for all intensive purposes liberated them from certain death is a stretch. This is either unrealistic story telling or there are other unexplained details at work that will come out next season. Unless Ser Alister and Tormund had come to some type of agreement prior (which seems ridiculous and there are no reasons to think), the KW is now in a greater position of danger then they've ever been. I know that GRRM always has a bigger storyline in mind, but when you look at logical orders of effect the scope of the above mentioned actions almost certainly dooms the KW and with the threat of an undead army coming to the wall would almost seem ludicrous. I guess we will have to see next season, which BTW my gut tells me that the production while awaiting the release of the TWOW will end up being delayed and possibly not aired until late 2016/early 2017.

[Ludo Kressh]

A huge improvement. Because Jon actually did NOTHING in the show to warrant the stabbings. He discovered you could kill a WW with Valyrian steel as well as dragon glass. He made Alliser First Ranger. He didn't send troops or help Stannis in any way. He didn't decide to go to Winterfell.

AND most importantly? He was on the wrong side of the wall and Alliser let him and the wildlings in!

If they'd spent ANY time --apart from the chat Jon had with Sam where he said he failed the watch and they all hated him, and the Olly stares of condemnation--any time at all showing him actually doing something to break their vows, then FTW would make sense. But they didn't. So it doesn't.

Well, technically they were on the right side of the Wall coming from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.... but for dramatic purposes :rolleyes: they had them on the wrong side of the Wall, but I definitely see what you're saying. I knew Olly would stab him, but I wasn't quite sure Thorne would have...and damn, I wish Ackbar would had been at the Wall with that Benjen bait. :P

[mafro987daboss]

Theres not much to say that hasn't been said, however, I don't think I've seen mention of what the implications would be if Stannis isn't dead (I mean really, we didn't see him die...) and he made his way back to the Wall which shouldn't be that hard considering Mel made it in what seemed like a few hours although with no real frame of reference, it's hard to tell. I know Stannis doesn't have much of a force left to command but don't forget it was his ships, crewed by his men that went to Hardhome specifically to save the Free Folk so in that sense Tormund and the gang do "owe" him. I'm not saying bend the knee because we know how well that notion goes over with the Wildlings, but they are already going to be uber pissed that the FTW fellows have killed/stabbed (whatever) the man who promised them safety, food, land in the gift, etc. I think Stannis will return to the Wall with Sansa (Brienne) and Theon in tow, shortly after Mel gives Jon the kiss of life and he'll kill Mel if Davos or the mutineers (assuming they're still alive) who would be pissed that she undid their handiwork haven't done it themselves already.

Idk... Just a thought but a lot less far fetched and reaching than a lot of other theories I have read. At least in my opinion. Any feedback or responses in regards to if I've forgotten something that wouldn't let some or all of these things from playing out is welcome - my memory isn't infallible.

Sounds good apart from Mel's death which would mean so much of the prophesies of previous seasons would have been for nothing which I find very unlikely (her meeting Arya again, walking walls of Winterfell etc).