A_Cornered_Wolf Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I have a Stark question. Are the wolves more expensive than zombie skeletons or CGI dragons? I'm not sure I understand why Arya's connection with Nymeria was dropped right after she bit Joffrey and why Jon's connection to ghost was so quickly phased out. Rickon and Shaggy had the same dream that led them to the crypts as Bran. Robb's wolf obviously took on his characteristics. Jon used Ghost to defend Sam from would-be attackers. But Ghost has been a ghost for a while now. In fact, Ghost has had more interactions with Sam than Jon. And Arya has never had a single dream about her wolf. I always felt like this was a really important plot point and I'm not sure why they chose to put it in the corner. Because Bran was enough? Because Dany was already defined by her dragons? The whole story basically started with the wolves. It was Ghost who guided Jon to save Mormont. And it was Sansa losing Lady that let me know she was in for a rough road. Why do you think they decided to phase them out? At a guess? Rendering realistic hair is more resource intensive than rendering realistic scales and so Direwolves cost more per second of screentime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Would the unsullied even remember the Dothraki considering all connection to them has been obliterated since 2012? Wouldn't most simply be like "oh fuck who are these centaur savages?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4W13Y Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I have a Stark question. Are the wolves more expensive than zombie skeletons or CGI dragons? I'm not sure I understand why Arya's connection with Nymeria was dropped right after she bit Joffrey and why Jon's connection to ghost was so quickly phased out. Rickon and Shaggy had the same dream that led them to the crypts as Bran. Robb's wolf obviously took on his characteristics. Jon used Ghost to defend Sam from would-be attackers. But Ghost has been a ghost for a while now. In fact, Ghost has had more interactions with Sam than Jon. And Arya has never had a single dream about her wolf. I always felt like this was a really important plot point and I'm not sure why they chose to put it in the corner. Because Bran was enough? Because Dany was already defined by her dragons? The whole story basically started with the wolves. It was Ghost who guided Jon to save Mormont. And it was Sansa losing Lady that let me know she was in for a rough road. Why do you think they decided to phase them out? I would think that they are not more expensive to CGI, it's just they are low on D&D's priority list. I agree, I definitely miss the connection to their wolves in the show. They did really well the first season, and with Bran/Rickon but dropped it for the others, which is disappointing. Cat didn't even say to Robb to keep Grey Wind by his side before the RW :( Mel didn't tell Jon to keep Ghost close because she saw FTW in her flames :( even mentioning the wolves would be better than what they do and it takes no CGI and only a few seconds to do, so I really don't get this at all :dunno: I would even be okay if they were just trained wolves in the show, if the CGI really is too difficult, since what matters most is the connection. Sure, it would suck for them not to be huge and badass, but they don't even have them as big as they are in the books on the show. Basically my point is: no wolves or mention of wolves < mention wolves < mention and see regular, non-CGI wolves < mention and see huge awesome scary CGI wolves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I'm partial to Dingus & Doofus or Dumb & Dumber myself. Dumb & Dumber in particular seems like an apt comparison. This scene from that film pretty much captures how D&D spent their time writing this show. Dork & Dorkier DIm & Dimmer Myself, I fluctuate on the name, I go with.......creatively, whatever makes sense to me at the time, because I want it to be that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I would think that they are not more expensive to CGI, it's just they are low on D&D's priority list. I agree, I definitely miss the connection to their wolves in the show. They did really well the first season, and with Bran/Rickon but dropped it for the others, which is disappointing. Cat didn't even say to Robb to keep Grey Wind by his side before the RW :( Mel didn't tell Jon to keep Ghost close because she saw FTW in her flames :( even mentioning the wolves would be better than what they do and it takes no CGI and only a few seconds to do, so I really don't get this at all :dunno: I would even be okay if they were just trained wolves in the show, if the CGI really is too difficult, since what matters most is the connection. Sure, it would suck for them not to be huge and badass, but they don't even have them as big as they are in the books on the show. Basically my point is: no wolves or mention of wolves < mention wolves < mention and see regular, non-CGI wolves < mention and see huge awesome scary CGI wolves No really. You don't want that. They couldn't deal with a cat on the set, it caused too many problems, Dormer complained and so did the director. You do not want to put a wolf at the mercy of these fools for any reason, not even to serve Team Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGBeyondAsshai Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 More to do with their dislike of the fantasy elements, back to the "Game of Thrones" over "A Song of Ice and Fire" topic again, for the title of the show. So blood rituals with leeches and princess burnings and dragons and Children throwing fireballs and blue lipped wizards and giant Wun Wuns and ice zombies and three eyed ravens and greendreams and facially challenged assassins are okay, but they draw the line at wolves. Got it. lol :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4W13Y Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The biggest problem with this show is that for unsullied viewers it requires asking book readers about certain scenes because a lot of stuff don't make sense. Either that or watching "Inside the episode". No one understood why Dany got rid of her ring until Benioff explained. No unsullied viewers understood what was happening in the HoBaW when Arya was removing that dude's faces, no one understood why Dany flew away with the dragon, no one understood that the Night's Watch felt they were doing their duty when they killed Jon. Nothing makes sense unless you have read the books, because the show does a terrible job providing explanations. I have read that when they were making the 1st episode, they forgot to mention that Jaime and Cersei were brother and sister, and I can see that they still forget to explain things because they know book readers will do that for them. I have a feeling that since book readers won't be able to explain what happens in Season 6, a lot of people will be really confused. Exactly. Or people have to make up convoluted theories and explanations and do mental gymnastics to understand anything. At a guess? Rendering realistic hair is more resource intensive than rendering realistic scales and so Direwolves cost more per second of screentime. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember the way they did it was film with actual trained wolves, then use CGI to make them larger. I don't know if the hair rendering would come into play for that scenario. I would be okay with just the trained wolves, with no CGI enhancements to be honest (as said in my previous post). Would the unsullied even remember the Dothraki considering all connection to them has been obliterated since 2012? Wouldn't most simply be like "oh fuck who are these centaur savages?!" I'm surprised there wasn't like, 10 scenes mentioning the Dothraki leading up to the scene, as well as a "previously on" mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I would think that they are not more expensive to CGI, it's just they are low on D&D's priority list. I agree, I definitely miss the connection to their wolves in the show. They did really well the first season, and with Bran/Rickon but dropped it for the others, which is disappointing. Cat didn't even say to Robb to keep Grey Wind by his side before the RW :( Mel didn't tell Jon to keep Ghost close because she saw FTW in her flames :( even mentioning the wolves would be better than what they do and it takes no CGI and only a few seconds to do, so I really don't get this at all :dunno: I would even be okay if they were just trained wolves in the show, if the CGI really is too difficult, since what matters most is the connection. Sure, it would suck for them not to be huge and badass, but they don't even have them as big as they are in the books on the show. Basically my point is: no wolves or mention of wolves < mention wolves < mention and see regular, non-CGI wolves < mention and see huge awesome scary CGI wolves And the unnecessary focus on the dragons. The scenes with Rhaegal and Viserion could have been handled without even showing them... well, one of them. The other with the noblemen was fucking stupid... though so was the first one... so they should not have appeared... unless they used the two book appearances in their prison... which they are too stupid to do. Though Robb's arc was butchered terribly, never mind Grey Worm. I can still not get over how stupid the Casterly Rock siege was, and the omission of Robb's will and Oldstones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor Is Kane Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You've all done a great job of discussing the obvious grievances, so I'll just say that it's a real shame how D&D have lost their way. In ASoIaF, the characters drive the plot. In GoT, they are becoming little more than video game sprites at the mercy of a kid with a control pad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4W13Y Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 No really. You don't want that. They couldn't deal with a cat on the set, it caused too many problems, Dormer complained and so did the director. You do not want to put a wolf at the mercy of these fools for any reason, not even to serve Team Stark. I guess I'm misremembering, but I could have sworn they actually do work with real wolves/dogs and they are then enhanced and made larger in post with CGI. So blood rituals with leeches and princess burnings and dragons and Children throwing fireballs and blue lipped wizards and giant Wun Wuns and ice zombies and three eyed ravens and greendreams and facially challenged assassins are okay, but they draw the line at wolves. Got it. lol :) And resurrections :P :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That's the point: he shows up for Sam, which is dumb, since he's not supposed to be Sam's Direwolf, but he didn't show up for Jon, when he is supposed to be Jon's Direwolf, which is also dumb. People in the show apology thread are saying "oh he was locked up" to explain it, which is dumb as well, since if that's the case, they could have had a tiny piece of dialogue mentioning him being locked up or gone (even though that doesn't make any sense, at least it would explain Ghost's absence). Perhaps Ghost is like my dog, the lazy bastard, and he was too busy sleeping on the couch to help Jon out. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonInVa Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Hey.......The Bastard's Bad Pussy Posse!! We have name, they have to know their name. :thumbsup:Great band name material! Rat Bastard and the Bad Pussy Posse. Live at Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGBeyondAsshai Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Great band name material!Rat Bastard and the Bad Pussy Posse. Live at Winterfell.That is a great band name lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 So blood rituals with leeches and princess burnings and dragons and Children throwing fireballs and blue lipped wizards and giant Wun Wuns and ice zombies and three eyed ravens and greendreams and facially challenged assassins are okay, but they draw the line at wolves. Got it. lol :) Accept those elements have been handled terribly as well. The leech rituals? People have already ranted about the stupidity present in the show for that alone. Please, the wolves are no different. It is there, but no less stupid and horribly handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGBeyondAsshai Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Accept those elements have been handled terribly as well. The leech rituals? People have already ranted about the stupidity present in the show for that alone. Please, the wolves are no different. It is there, but no less stupid and horribly handled. true enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerDesmondHume Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I have a Stark question. Are the wolves more expensive than zombie skeletons or CGI dragons? I'm not sure I understand why Arya's connection with Nymeria was dropped right after she bit Joffrey and why Jon's connection to ghost was so quickly phased out. Rickon and Shaggy had the same dream that led them to the crypts as Bran. Robb's wolf obviously took on his characteristics. Jon used Ghost to defend Sam from would-be attackers. Well in season one they just used a larger breed of dog. Afterwards they used wolves for season 2 and they of course couldn't put the actors near the wolves. After that they use wolves but scale them up in size. and have a prop stand in to be beside the actors. An special animal trainer works with the wolves I'm not sure what his fee would be. For zombie skeletons unless they were borrowed from another show/movie they were rendered and designed from relative scratch and probably had people in motion suits attacking Bran and co. They then switched it up in post production to get the skeletons. Dragons would be the most expensive since we don't have any trained animals that could stand in for them at all. They use a prop most likely just to show where it is on set. But digitally they're built from scratch including movements probably. If you watch the deleted Qarth scene you'll see what it looks like with theoretical dragons (ie before they're added post production). Wolves would be somewhat cheaper than skeletons which are somewhat cheaper than dragons. Also note a lot of cgi goes into touching things up, increase people amount and into backgrounds Though this is just my guess. I'm not sure the full details of the processes they use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Perhaps Ghost is like my dog, the lazy bastard, and he was too busy sleeping on the couch to help Jon out. Just a guess. Better than a disdainful cat with a habit of acting as a fur-clad shadow when hungry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4W13Y Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 And the unnecessary focus on the dragons. The scenes with Rhaegal and Viserion could have been handled without even showing them... well, one of them. The other with the noblemen was fucking stupid... though so was the first one... so they should not have appeared... unless they used the two book appearances in their prison... which they are too stupid to do. Though Robb's arc was butchered terribly, never mind Grey Worm. I can still not get over how stupid the Casterly Rock siege was, and the omission of Robb's will and Oldstones. Yup, hated what they did with Robb on the show. See, the dragon thing is so weird. They didn't have to show any dragons until Daznak's pit because in the books Dany has them locked up and doesn't go and see them or deal with them or anything of the sort. So they could have omitted 4 extraneous scenes with excessive dragon CGI from the show if they just stuck with Dany's book arc. But dragons are the bread and butter for the show, so of course that won't happen. Which is why I said the lack of Direwolves is due to poor priorities, rather than budget/time restrictions. Perhaps Ghost is like my dog, the lazy bastard, and he was too busy sleeping on the couch to help Jon out. Just a guess. Just like Drogon when Dany was surrounded by Dothraki :P even though the episode prior D&D explain that he senses when "mommy" (gag) is in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Cornered_Wolf Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 And the unnecessary focus on the dragons. The scenes with Rhaegal and Viserion could have been handled without even showing them... well, one of them. The other with the noblemen was fucking stupid... though so was the first one... so they should not have appeared... unless they used the two book appearances in their prison... which they are too stupid to do. Though Robb's arc was butchered terribly, never mind Grey Worm. I can still not get over how stupid the Casterly Rock siege was, and the omission of Robb's will and Oldstones. They had to omit the Westerlands entanglement strategy, thus 'luring the Mountain into the west to kill him' instead. That strategy makes Tywin's defeating Stannis dumb luck and not military genius. But 'Robb attacks the Westerlands' is on their plot point summary list, and had to be checked off, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gogossos Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Great band name material!Rat Bastard and the Bad Pussy Posse. Live at Winterfell. Or Cock Merchant and The Bad Pussies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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