Has the Show Become too Nihilistic

[Darryk]

The part where Myrcella died I did think "okay, that's a bit much.". In fact the entire Dorne sequence was a bit much. Seems like, contrary to what Oberyn said in season 4, hurting little girls is very much a thing in Dorne.

[protar]

A throw away line or two isn't going to fix that. Nor is some as-yet-successful mission to track down any Starks.

This point in the books is also the optimistic low point (or better be). Faulting the show for that is stupid, blame GRRM if anybody.

The books manage to put hope even into that low point. And unlike the moments of love and connection on the show they don't feel like blatant emotional manipulations. Even in Winterfell in Dance, I still feel like there's hope. The North is still fighting.

Barbrey: Lord Wyman is not the only one who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers. Flints, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Slates … they all had men with the Young Wolf.

Roger: House Ryswell too. Even Dustins out of Barrowton.

Barbrey: The north remembers, Frey.

[TheLeviathan73]

The books manage to put hope even into that low point. And unlike the moments of love and connection on the show they don't feel like blatant emotional manipulations. Even in Winterfell in Dance, I still feel like there's hope. The North is still fighting.

I really think it's silly to think a few snippets here and there pull the book out of nihilism. I think both show watchers and book readers believe that eventually all this misery will pay off, but the books have driven us down this bleak road. Don't blame the show for following it.

[protar]

I really think it's silly to think a few snippets here and there pull the book out of nihilism. I think both show watchers and book readers believe that eventually all this misery will pay off, but the books have driven us down this bleak road. Don't blame the show for following it.

But I absolutely do think those small snippets mean a lot. The devil is in the details, as Martin himself is so fond of saying. The books are just much more hopeful than the show in my mind. Even in the darkest moments of the books. In the Red Wedding we have the northeners going down fighting, in Winterfell the Northern Lords are bare faced in their disdain for the Freys and Boltons. We have Davos calling Jared Frey a liar. Stuff like that. It adds up. The show captures none of this atmosphere. To me the difference is so great that I would go so far as to say that D+D have completely misunderstood the core message of the series. ASOIAF is about the human spirit persevering in the face of atrocities. GoT is about smashing beetles.

[saillias]

We got a "the North Remembers" - that old lady accomplished as much as the Manderleys have against the Boltons. A bunch of fat old guys from minor houses saying things isn't going to change anyone's sense of nihilism.

You are completely wrong, and frankly I don't think you're read ADWD at all. What a poorly thought out thing to say.

[Dolorous Gabe]

But I absolutely do think those small snippets mean a lot. The devil is in the details, as Martin himself is so fond of saying. The books are just much more hopeful than the show in my mind. Even in the darkest moments of the books. In the Red Wedding we have the northeners going down fighting, in Winterfell the Northern Lords are bare faced in their disdain for the Freys and Boltons. We have Davos calling Jared Frey a liar. Stuff like that. It adds up. The show captures none of this atmosphere. To me the difference is so great that I would go so far as to say that D+D have completely misunderstood the core message of the series. ASOIAF is about the human spirit persevering in the face of atrocities. GoT is about smashing beetles.

:agree:

[Alayne's Shadow.]

But I absolutely do think those small snippets mean a lot. The devil is in the details, as Martin himself is so fond of saying. The books are just much more hopeful than the show in my mind. Even in the darkest moments of the books. In the Red Wedding we have the northeners going down fighting, in Winterfell the Northern Lords are bare faced in their disdain for the Freys and Boltons. We have Davos calling Jared Frey a liar. Stuff like that. It adds up. The show captures none of this atmosphere. To me the difference is so great that I would go so far as to say that D+D have completely misunderstood the core message of the series. ASOIAF is about the human spirit persevering in the face of atrocities. GoT is about smashing beetles.

Don't forget raping beetles too.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

The books manage to put hope even into that low point. And unlike the moments of love and connection on the show they don't feel like blatant emotional manipulations. Even in Winterfell in Dance, I still feel like there's hope. The North is still fighting.

Barbrey: Lord Wyman is not the only one who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers. Flints, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Slates … they all had men with the Young Wolf.

Roger: House Ryswell too. Even Dustins out of Barrowton.

Barbrey: The north remembers, Frey.

We haven't seen Freys since the RW really. With the casting of the Northern Lords I assume the time for those plots and details will be next Season.

[protar]

We haven't seen Freys since the RW really. With the casting of the Northern Lords I assume the time for those plots and details will be next Season.

Why? Why not this season? So we could have more time for Ramsay and his 20 good men?

[TheLeviathan73]

Why? Why not this season? So we could have more time for Ramsay and his 20 good men?

Again, we end the books in basically the same place the show is. You can find hope in whatever little things you want, but the truth is your hope really lies in the belief that Martin wouldn't possibly just destroy all the heroes and call it a wrap. The real source of whatever hope you have lies in basic narrative structure. Neither the show nor the books is giving you any convincing reason, the "villains" have consistently won out and the "heroes" have consistently died or been hampered.

That's just the nature of the series, whether Martin continues down that road or finally gets the ball rolling towards some optimism is up to him. (But I expect, and hope, that he will)

[protar]

Again, we end the books in basically the same place the show is. You can find hope in whatever little things you want, but the truth is your hope really lies in the belief that Martin wouldn't possibly just destroy all the heroes and call it a wrap. The real source of whatever hope you have lies in basic narrative structure. Neither the show nor the books is giving you any convincing reason, the "villains" have consistently won out and the "heroes" have consistently died or been hampered.

That's just the nature of the series, whether Martin continues down that road or finally gets the ball rolling towards some optimism is up to him. (But I expect, and hope, that he will)

Why are you trying to psychoanalyse where my hope is coming from? It makes you look foolish and arrogant. I still feel hope in the books because Martin explicitly gives us scenes of the good guys still fighting and resisting, even if just in small ways. Scenes that the show has cut. Yes, dark things happen in the books. But Martin very consciously puts in moments of levity throughout, even in those darkest moments. Do you think this is a coincidence? It isn't. It isn't mine or Martin's fault if you glossed over those moments and think the books are just as nihilistic as the show. Go re-read the books because - no exaggeration - you (along with D+D) seem to have completely wrongly interpreted the core message of the books. It isn't "hurp durp everyone can die, there is no hope!"

[abacabb]

What disappoints me is before Season 5 aired we got all this talk from the cast about how this season was for "the heroes" and then that David Bowie song talking about heroes and I was amped up for some good shit to happen.. and here I am again looking forward and hoping next year it will happen lol.

I really didn't care for Jon Snow at all until Season 5.. if he really is gone and they jump ship on the "resurrection" then I fucking regret every minute I've spent on this show.

[TheLeviathan73]

Why are you trying to psychoanalyse where my hope is coming from? It makes you look foolish and arrogant. I still feel hope in the books because Martin explicitly gives us scenes of the good guys still fighting and resisting, even if just in small ways. Scenes that the show has cut. Yes, dark things happen in the books. But Martin very consciously puts in moments of levity throughout, even in those darkest moments. Do you think this is a coincidence? It isn't. It isn't mine or Martin's fault if you glossed over those moments and think the books are just as nihilistic as the show. Go re-read the books because - no exaggeration - you (along with D+D) seem to have completely wrongly interpreted the core message of the books. It isn't "hurp durp everyone can die, there is no hope!"

The book and the show built the "anyone can die" belief starting with Ned and continuing with the Red Wedding. That isn't the theme of the book, but it is one of Martin's efforts to go against the grain of storytelling and part of that, IMO, is to keep pushing heroes to depths of despair that most writers aren't willing to go.

Telling a few jokes or having a few ancilliary characters express solidarity with the heroes is irrelevant unless the tide actually turns. And it hasn't in the books or the show. (And get back to me with the Northerners actually unseat the Boltons. I've been through too much Mereen to have confidence in much of any plotting/manuevering)

[protar]

The book and the show built the "anyone can die" belief starting with Ned and continuing with the Red Wedding. That isn't the theme of the book, but it is one of Martin's efforts to go against the grain of storytelling and part of that, IMO, is to keep pushing heroes to depths of despair that most writers aren't willing to go.

Telling a few jokes or having a few ancilliary characters express solidarity with the heroes is irrelevant unless the tide actually turns. And it hasn't in the books or the show. (And get back to me with the Northerners actually unseat the Boltons. I've been through too much Mereen to have confidence in much of any plotting/manuevering)

No. It. Is. Not. Irrelevant.

It's super relevant. It's a huge difference between the books and the show. Martin goes down a dark path but he is constantly in the business of reassuring his audience, telling us that there is still hope and people are still fighting. The tides have not turned yet, but you can see things starting to turn. You choose to ignore that that's your fault. The show on the other hand revels in misery. It makes sure the audience has no hope and then makes them want to come back anyway through pure shock value. At this point the show is basically an abusive boyfriend in televisual form. If the tides do ever turn in the show it will be completely unearned.

You might not care about those moments of levity, but it's simply an objective fact that the show has cut many (I would say most) of them. It's not a coincidence that the books included them in the first place and it's not a coincidence that the show decided to cut them. It's because the show wants to deliver a fundamentally different message to the books.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It's like I said in another thread: every tiny snippet of hope or heartfelt moment in the show is there with the sole purpose of getting squashed by the inevitable bleak twist.

"Oh, look, a moving Stannis-Shireen scene! Awww...oh, no, never mind, it was just to blindside us with Shireen's death."

"But look! A kind old woman loyal to the Starks, and she even says "The North Reme"...oh, no, granny got flayed."

"Wait, hold your horses, Jaime and Myrcella are hugging and...oh, c'mon, did she really have to die immediately there and then?"

"Oh, my god, could it be? It's Benjen here? A nephew-uncle reunion? Oh...shit, guess not."

"But Talisa is pregnant! And her baby's called Ned Stark, little Ned, and...nevermind, she just got a Frey-style abortion."

The show has trained us to expect utter death and misery whenever something remotely good happens, to the point that it's not even surprising anymore.

"Look, Barristan is having a one-on-one conversation with Dany for like the first time ever. So he's obviously deader than Ned."

It's like, extrapolate this pattern to the books and you get Jojen saying, "The wolves will come back", and a tree branch immediately falls on his head and kills him.

D&D are just nihilists. I mean, "say what you will have the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos."

[TheLeviathan73]

You might not care about those moments of levity, but it's simply an objective fact that the show has cut many (I would say most) of them. It's not a coincidence that the books included them in the first place and it's not a coincidence that the show decided to cut them. It's because the show wants to deliver a fundamentally different message to the books.

I don't and most people won't. And your conclusion is driven by your belief in the infallibility of the books and disdain of the show. I appreciate both, you know, like the vast majority of people not on this site.

What matters most to people is that their heroes finally start to win out. Hopefully that's coming soon, otherwise all this misery they've been through will have been meaningless. That is, afterall, the meaning of nihilism.

[TheLeviathan73]

It's like I said in another thread: every tiny snippet of hope or heartfelt moment in the show is there with the sole purpose of getting squashed by the inevitable bleak twist.

I would agree that the show has too often built up contradictions in order to make deaths sting harder. I don't think that's nihilism, but at times it is pretty unfair teasing.

[protar]

I don't and most people won't. And your conclusion is driven by your belief in the infallibility of the books and disdain of the show. I appreciate both, you know, like the vast majority of people not on this site.

What matters most to people is that their heroes finally start to win out. Hopefully that's coming soon, otherwise all this misery they've been through will have been meaningless. That is, afterall, the meaning of nihilism.

I don't think the books are infallible, just a hell of a lot better than the show.

And yes, the important thing is that the heroes start to win. But these moments of levity before that happens are very important to tide audiences over. If Martin is literally just trolling us and there is no happy ending, then I'll take back all I'm saying. But I trust Martin, he's proven to me that he is a good writer and he's outright said that the ending will be bittersweet, not just bitter.

[TheLeviathan73]

And yes, the important thing is that the heroes start to win. But these moments of levity before that happens are very important to tide audiences over. If Martin is literally just trolling us and there is no happy ending, then I'll take back all I'm saying. But I trust Martin, he's proven to me that he is a good writer and he's outright said that the ending will be bittersweet, not just bitter.

You should consider how those same moments - like Shireen/Stannis in the show, like much of the stuff with Robb pre-wedding in the books- actually sometimes work the opposite way. They build a false hope that only makes the subsequent despair worse and feed the nihilism. The show and the book have both indulged frequently in that. (Though, as I said earlier, sometimes the show teases it even more unfairly. But it's hardly a foreign device to ASOIAF)

Ultimately the only thing that is going to save the series from nihilism is GRRM's choices, they are the driving force behind that perception.

[Stonehearted Snake]

I don't and most people won't. And your conclusion is driven by your belief in the infallibility of the books and disdain of the show. I appreciate both, you know, like the vast majority of people not on this site.

What matters most to people is that their heroes finally start to win out. Hopefully that's coming soon, otherwise all this misery they've been through will have been meaningless. That is, afterall, the meaning of nihilism.

I would love to see this data you have for "most people."

I definitely think the show is far more nihilistic. If you don't think Frey Pies give readers hope - then I don't know what books you've been reading.

The show has taken what was rightly praised as "gritty realism," where the good guys didn't always win because there was natural balance, into always letting the bad guys win even at the expense of reality.