Winterbirth by Brian Ruckley

[MinDonner]

Arse, arse, arse. I'd just typed a long reply, and as happens EVERY TIME I type a long reply, my **** internet crashed and I lost the lot. Anyway, the short version is, my take on "gritty" is a story where the author isn't scared to kill off or injure a lot of the good people, and there are realistic depictions of, say, hunger and cold and other nasty things. There aren't buckets of blood or streetwise swearing, but the good guys certainly don't get a free pass.

*carefully copies and pastes reply so it doesn't get lost...*

[The Wolf Maid]

Arse, arse, arse. I'd just typed a long reply, and as happens EVERY TIME I type a long reply, my **** internet crashed and I lost the lot. Anyway, the short version is, my take on "gritty" is a story where the author isn't scared to kill off or injure a lot of the good people, and there are realistic depictions of, say, hunger and cold and other nasty things. There aren't buckets of blood or streetwise swearing, but the good guys certainly don't get a free pass.

*carefully copies and pastes reply so it doesn't get lost...*

Happened to me, too. Min. Stupid browser.

And I agree on gritty = good guys don't get a pass. They get beheaded or run through a sword instead.

[Astra]

I see.

Thanks a lot.

I think I can say The Terror by Dan Simmons is a gritty book

Sorry for off topic.

[briruc]

Interesting discussion on the question of grittiness. I'm inclined to agree that it's possibly being used as a descriptor of certain types of fantasy a bit over-enthusiastically these days (I think I've used it myself in interviews!), and that's it not necessarily all that clear about what precisely it means.

When I was writing the book, I wasn't sitting there thinking 'must be gritty, must be gritty.' What I was thinking was 'make it plausible.' My particular definition of plausible was just trying to make everything from the landscapes to the politics to the consequences of violence have a certain convincing texture - realistic, if you like, though I'm not sure plausibility is quite the same thing as realism, where fantasy's concerned. People's definition of what's plausible or not can clearly vary, but in my case, for this book, it did involve a particular interpretation of what those kinds of societies would be like, and others have attached the adjective 'gritty' to that interpretation. Perhaps it says as much about me and my world view as it does about what's genuinely plausible (although I'm not actually an unusually grim, pessismistic or violent person, honestly!)

I don't think for a second that 'gritty' - whatever it means - is an inherently better way of writing fantasy than any other. It tells you nothing about the quality, innvotaiveness or interest of the story, only the tone of voice with which its told.

And on the subject of swearing: don't get me started. I tried different approaches while writing the book, and the one you see is - obviously - the one I ended up with. I admit it may not be wholly satisfactory, and that the relatively clean-mouthed behaviour of various characters might raise questions about whether my enthusiasm for plausibility was as thorough as it might have been. All I can say is I couldn't get other approaches to work satisfactorily either. If I get to write something else after this trilogy, maybe greater experience will enable me to crack the 'swearing question' then!

[kcf]

Brian,

All the cool cats are being called gritty these days, so it's a good place to be ...even though it's a bit overused.

I haven't really commented on the swearing issue because I think I'm a bit bipolar in my thoughts on it. I've seen done very well and very badly multiple times, and there isn't necessarily a correlation with those approaches. You pulled it off just fine.

[aidan]

So I finished up Winterbirth (full review HERE) and have mixed feelings.

In a lot of ways, Winterbirth surprised me and excited the reader in me. I loved the setting. Brian obviously poured a lot of love into the creation of the world and painting pictures in our mind that do it justice. The windswept, rugged landscape really helped set the mood for the story and I appreciated that. Equally compelling were the Kyrinin and Na'kyrim:

SPOILER: Winterbirth

I thought it was a terrific twist of convention to have the "half-elves" to be the ones to inherit the magic. This isn't something that I've encountered before and so it really pulled me into the story of the various na'kyrim littered throughout the narrative.

I was liked the direction that the Kyrinin took. I liked how they weren't all nice, in fact they were downright terrifying in their ferociousness. In some ways, I would have liked to have seen the kyrinin civil war take more precedence over the plot. In many ways the Kyrinin reminded me a lot of Tad William's Sithi, both in appearance and culture.

I also enjoyed the fact that Ruckley showed us both sides of the conflict and managed to make me empathize with the antagonists.

Ironically, though, for all of Ruckley's innovations and twists of formula, he seems to take the easy way out a lot of the time (

SPOILER: Winterbirth

Anyara and Inurian's escape from Anduran, for example

) and fell back on genre conventions a little too often.

All in all, though, a solid debut, and I'll be looking forward to getting my hands on Bloodheir.

[Peadar]

Yeah, the magic users (no spoilers here!) were really cool. As were the elf analogs -- alien as they should be.

[Tongue Stuck to Wall]

The kyrinin = elves anaology isn't that terribly insightful. The kyrinin = indigenous natives is a much more apt and fruitful comparison, and which does make them more in congruence with Williams' Sithi if one is looking for similarities in fantasy. That the kyrinin are tribal based, perceived as being a monolithic force but wracked by internecine conflict, competing with newcomers for natural resources, and have a close affiliation with the earth and its creatures all make them ready analogues for North American natives in particular, although in Ruckley's case it could be Romans or Angles/Saxons/Jutes vs. Celts (Picts).

Orisian and Rothe's episode with the Fox clan is highly reminiscent of the traditional captive narrative in American colonial and early national history.

The "alliance" between the White Owls and Black Road Bloods clearly could have taken place during any phase of early North American history as the first-nations people sought to align themselves with whatever European power best served their interests.

As well, the notion of Aeglyss as a cultural broker (between himself and the Inkallim) is a growing and significant trope in rececnt historical scholarship, with emphasis on the importance of those "in between worlds" who faciliated relations between the newcomers and native people.

[Peadar]

The kyrinin = elves anaology isn't that terribly insightful. The kyrinin = indigenous natives is a much more apt and fruitful comparison,

No doubt you are correct. Except for the fact that the kyrinin look like elves when Mr. Ruckley had ample opportunity to make them look like people if he had wanted to. Anyway, whether they are meant to be analogs for indigenous tribes or confused inhabitants of Rivendell, what makes them interesting to me are their alien thought patterns. My guess is that the author just made them up from a mixture of different elements floating around his skull at the time. But perhaps he might appear and tell us personally?

On this board, you never know...

[aidan]

The kyrinin = elves anaology [sic] isn't that terribly insightful.

Err... I'm not sure if this was directed towards my comments or not, but let me pick up the torch and run with it.

Yeah, you're right the kyrinin=elves analogy is the most obvious analogy and didn't take nearly as many brain cells to come up with as the kyrinin=First Nations analogy. But, the fact of the matter is that the majority of Ruckley's readers are going to associate the kyrinin with elves and not First Nations. I wasn't trying to write a thesis on the novel exploring the different themes and meanings of the kyrinin and their place in the story... I was writing a review and tackling some of the more obvious issues.

Second, Winterbirth is set in a land that is a derivative of Scotland, not North America. The last time I checked, Scottish history wasn't full of warring First Nation bands. Now, for all I know there could have been something very similar happening in Scotland at some point in its history, but I don't really care in the context of the story. I approach a novel on a clean slate and work with what the author gives me, Winterbirth is soaked in Scottish history, lore and culture as well as standard fantasy tropes and so that is where I look when making analogies.

I'd be curious to hear what Brian has to say on the subject.

[kcf]

*summons author...Brian Ruckley*

[briruc]

The good news is ... everybody's right. Hooray!

The Kyrinin have certainly got some elf in them, but Tongue Stuck to Wall is also spot on to identify a bit of Native American in the mix. When I was dreaming them up I was going for a sort of cross between elves and Native Americans and prehistoric European hunter-gatherer culture.

But Peadar's also right, of course, that at the end of the day I just made them up from the mish-mash of stuff in my head - even I probably couldn't now remember exactly which bits came from where (though I can say their appearance is obviously elvish, the huts they live in and a lot of the food they eat are similar to those used in prehistoric Europe, and their relations with the various Bloods, as well as their tribal structures and other aspects of their lifestyles, do indeed owe something to the experience of the First Nations). But then you've got their facial tattoos ... and those come from a combination of Pictish and Maori culture. All a bit of a mess, really.

At the end of the day, Aidan's got a good point: I'm sure the first reaction of the majority of readers is 'oh look, fierce elves', and that's fine. All I really care about is if they come across as at least a little bit novel and - as Peadar says -'alien'. Maybe if you mix up enough different influences, you end up with something a little unfamiliar?

I love, by the way, Tongue Stuck to Wall's description of Aeglyss as a 'cultural broker' - not come across that term before. There's definitely an element of that in there, though that role would have been more significant for na'kyrim generally in the past of the Godless World.

So, you see, everybody has successfully excavated a little bit of the writer's brain (Ouch).

And kcf: you can put your spell book away now.

[Relic]

so i skimmed this thread the other day and bought Winterbirth (even tho it didnt get a review from Stego, whos opinion on these matters i trust more than i should) and the first thing i noticed was the similarity in certain areas to aSoIaF. From the Winter is Coming bit to the land down south called Dornsomething, and a bunch of stuff in between.

So tho those who have read it, how much of a rip is it? And why dont i browse before i buy?

Im still hoping to enjoy the book tho.

:: crosses fingers

[kcf]

So tho those who have read it, how much of a rip is it?

I would say that it's not a rip at all. There are similar feels about the mood and such, and since Ruckley takes inspiration from his native Scotland, it takes on a wintery feel, but I'd not say it's overly similar to ASOIF at all.

[Hereward]

I finished Winterbirth yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. I had no problems with the pace, but I like FotR so that's no surprise! Excellent world-building, goodly amount of plotting, scheming and competing factions. I'm looking forward to the next installment.

Well done, Brian!

[WarGalley]

Just finished it and liked it a lot. I couldn't really put it down toward the end. I wish I had more of an idea of the "scope" of the war/turmoil that's about to descend upon the land with respect to Aeglyss. He's one man with a lot of power, but alienated by a number of races and armies.

I also felt that my understanding of how the Shared could be used for violence and war and what it's limitation are were a little thin. I suppose we'll find out more in the next book.

I did like the way High Thanes of both the Haig and Gyre Bloods were dealing with the same internal problems in the same way. I also liked Mordyn's character and hope we'll see more Machiavellian manuevers from him before or if he dies.

I agree with the previous posts about the characterization. The characters weren't fleshed out fully for me to really care about when they died. I did become attached a little to Orisian & Co. at the end (I thought Rothe was a goner for sure during the last showdown).

Solid overall and looking forward to Bloodheir.

[Multaniette]

i just started the book and so far it reads like ainulindale redux...

[briruc]

Well done, Brian!

Thanks, Hereward. Glad you liked it.

WarGalley said:

I also felt that my understanding of how the Shared could be used for violence and war and what it's limitation are were a little thin. I suppose we'll find out more in the next book.

Yes, to some extent you will. Considerable use of Shared for violence, war and general poor behaviour draws near. And also said:

I also liked Mordyn's character and hope we'll see more Machiavellian manuevers from him before or if he dies.

Mordyn gets more screen-time in Bloodheir than he did in Winterbirth, and he becomes a much more direct participant in the central plot, so hopefully that'll be to your liking. We aim to please (and just hope we don't miss too often).

[aidan]

I've been thinking quite a bit about Winterbirth lately, and specifically about Aeglyss and his importance to the story. In the end I keep finding myself drawn to his story, his transformation and just how far out of the park Ruckley hit it with the character.

SPOILER: Winterbirth

One of the standard fantasy cliches that so many writers fall back on is a badguy with an evil past. We hear about why he's evil. We see what he does because of his evilness and we're given insight into what made him the way he is.

But rarely do we get to see him become evil. And this is exactly what Ruckley is showing us. We get to watch the transformation of what I can only assume is going to be the antagonist of the trilogy, from a weak, exiled and reviled little man to a Christ-like figure of enormous power with a big chip on his shoulder.

This insight into a character like Aeglyss is going to be invaluable to the story and, I feel, will be the aspect that most sets Ruckley's story apart from other Fantasies out there. I'm not saying it hasn't been done before, I'm sure it has, but Aeglyss and his story have really stuck with me. I'm looking forward to seeing Aeglyss and his story more than anything else in Bloodheir, at this point.

[duchess of malfi]

After hearing so much about this book and Abercrombie's Blade Itself, it was with great joy that I finally found both today. It is about time they both made their way to the US.

I used to order books from Britain every now and then, but have been trying to avoid that in the past few months with the dollar seeming to grow steadily weaker all of the time....

It really sucks very now and then to hear great things about books first published overseas, and to wait and wait and wait. Steven Erikson might be the most painful wait.

But at least we seem to get them before my poor buddy from South Africa does...