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Prince of Ghost

R+L=J v 150

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Yeah it's possible. It's hard to rule it out with the small amount of information we have.
 
 
That is possible. Or in his older age he realized she was young girl prone to making mistakes. You can't really expect a 16 year old to make the best decisions. Even Brandon made a huge mistake running off to Kingslanding. There are any number of explanations including Ned's tailored memory for why we don't get any of the resentment.
 
I think I and other readers side with the "she ran off with him" because it is actually contrary to the story we've been told so far. We were led to believe that Rhaegar Kidnapped and raped her (repeatedly). We know that bias comes from King Robert's personal opinion and Ned *probably* doesn't have the heart to tell him.We have hints of the Knight of the Laughing Tree as well as the crown at Harrenhal that suggests maybe more was going on there that we the readers are not aware of. Lyanna wasn't abducted from Winterfel, she was oddly enough down by Harrenhal and we're told of no causalities in her abduction (where were her guards?)
 
The story just doesn't seem to add up. But I admit the whole thing is vague enough that you could be correct.
 
 
Meh, world book isn't telling us anything that isn't the commonly stated in world. The language is definitely dramatic. The book was written for King Robert and his children. They're not going to write that Robert's childhood love and the Lord Protectorate of the North ran off willingly with the hated Targaryen's. Good way to get your head removed.
 
 
Assuming she was it and Ned knew, it is interesting that such a fascinating story wasn't related to Ned's Children. He obviously told Bran about the tourney but managed not to include such a fun aside for it. He didn't even have to tell Bran that it was Lyanna. Yet he didn't. But this is another argument of: "Why did Ned omit information, emotions, etc". I would claim that omission is because it ties too closely to the Lyanna/Rhaegar romance and he wants no one talking about it (because of course Jon).
 
The reed children are shocked Bran doesn't know probably because they aren't aware of the truth of Jon. Howland probably swore a vow of secrecy to Ned about that. But he had no such vow regarding Harrenhal.
 
 
Robb was also very honorable and would go out of his way to do the right thing. That doesn't mean he wasn't young and didn't make mistakes that some might consider contradict that code of ethics. The same can be said of Lyanna.
 
In the story the "wolf's blood" I sort of took as being impulsive. Maybe I'm wrong in my reading of it. So Brandon's "wolf's blood" made him charge off to Kingslanding and demand a duel with Rhaegar. Lyanna's might be that when she fell in love she didn't care about the rules and went with her heart. As with the Harrenhal Tourney she saw a wrong being committed to Howland and took it upon herself to teach them a lesson. Again fairly impulsive. She could have handled it a very different way and still had the "right and wrong" you're talking about.
 
Finally we don't know the extent of Lyanna's and Rhaegar's communication. It could have been spontaneous, it could have been something they had discussed for months via letters. There is too little information to claim that she would have saw the act as wrong. Obviously after the war broke out and many people died I'm sure that view might have changed.


And I don't discount any of your points and appreciate your graciousness on seeing my POV.

As far as how Martin sets up the story regarding Roberts perspective, I agree, BUT, given Martin, I could also see him planting just a wee bit of truth in what Robert believes, which is why I look at all angles.

And believing Lyanna loved Rhaegar but perhaps also NOT a willing abductee doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

But, I'm really looking forward to finding out how tKotLT was born.

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So, no killer essays?

Wolfmaid7 explains a bit over on the Heretics Guide to Heresy in the Dance with Dragons section. Essays are coming (not a threat). 

 

Or you can just PM her. Name and avatar seem fierce, but no worries about PM-ing. Really.  :)

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Wolfmaid7 explains a bit over on the Heretics Guide to Heresy in the Dance with Dragons section. Essays are coming (not a threat). 
 
Or you can just PM her. Name and avatar seem fierce, but no worries about PM-ing. Really.  :)


After the things she said on that other forum about some of the people here, I'm not really interested in contacting her. I'm not expecting anything that will stand up to the kind of rigorous discussion that we've seen here for 150 threads.

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After the things she said on that other forum about some of the people here, I'm not really interested in contacting her. I'm not expecting anything that will stand up to the kind of rigorous discussion that we've seen here for 150 threads.

Apologies. I misunderstood the intent of your question. As to the other--can't speak to it. Didn't know of other forum until after it shut down.

 

But as soon as this forum finishes its upgrade, as I understand it, the essays will be published here. 

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Well going personal, that is a problem in terms of debate because people don't know how to disagree um, "professionally."

(I deal with Human Resources and reviews a lot in my job, so you have to be careful and you have to be fair).

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Well going personal, that is a problem in terms of debate because people don't know how to disagree um, "professionally."

(I deal with Human Resources and reviews a lot in my job, so you have to be careful and you have to be fair).

Am assuming will follow same format as originally laid out on Heretic's Guide. No idea of how well it may or may not work.

 

Did not mean to stir anything up. Responded to a question, but apparently misunderstood context. Apologies.

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Am assuming will follow same format as originally laid out on Heretic's Guide. No idea of how well it may or may not work.
 
Did not mean to stir anything up. Responded to a question, but apparently misunderstood context. Apologies.


You didn't do anything. If that individual was being unfair, that isn't on you.

I haven't been there a year or so. I lurked, but TBH, some of it was a bit out of my area of knowledge in terms of some of the mythologies they were alluding to.

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After the things she said on that other forum about some of the people here, I'm not really interested in contacting her. I'm not expecting anything that will stand up to the kind of rigorous discussion that we've seen here for 150 threads.

 

Completely agree. I'm interested in having a look, but I'm not expecting much. I think the fact that they are doing these essays kind of demonstrates something I said not too long ago: There's nothing like a consensus R+L=/=J theory. RLJ stands head and shoulders above all other theories in terms of evidence and explanatory value. After that you have a few different ideas, none of which has ever distinguished itself in the nearly twenty years since AGoT was published. I just find it really hard to believe that this hasn't happened, if RLJ isn't true. With the way people pick over these books, some other theory really should have emerged by now. Again, that's if RLJ isn't true. But it is, which is why that other theory hasn't emerged.

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[mod] I think that's quite enough discussion of other forums and the 'professional' or not approach they take to discussion. Stick to the topic at hand, and remember you are discussing a book, not each other [/mod]

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Two things that I've wondered about.

tKotLT was said to have had a booming voice. How was Lyanna able to do do that?

Also, what is the sigificance of Jon Con wearing a wolf skin pelt?
I've always taken it as a sign of his negative feelings towards Lyanna.

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tKotLT was said to have had a booming voice. How was Lyanna able to do do that?

 

Not quite, TKOTLT is said to have spoken "in a booming voice through his helm."

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Two things that I've wondered about.

tKotLT was said to have had a booming voice. How was Lyanna able to do do that?

Also, what is the sigificance of Jon Con wearing a wolf skin pelt?
I've always taken it as a sign of his negative feelings towards Lyanna.

No idea about the second question. As to the first, there was a great audio put out by two of the posters that frequent this thread (totally forgot which two, but someone else around here should remember) that demonstrated how it could be done. As I recall it involved the echo and deepening of the voice involved in speaking into a metal bucket. Bottom line -- even a teenage girl can sound like a grown man by using the right tricks. I hope someone has a link to that audio.

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No matter how you slice it, TKOTLT was a small person who almost certainly did not have a naturally booming voice. Aerys suspected Jaime who was what, fifteen? And I seriously doubt Howland, though grown, was more capable of a booming voice than Lyanna.

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Re: the "booming voice." I've always thought the impression we're supposed to be left with is that the KotLT was attempting to disguise their voice, and the technical quibbles are just that.

 

When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, ‘Teach your squire honor, that shall be ransom enough.'

 

No idea about the second question. As to the first, there was a great audio put out by two of the posters that frequent this thread (totally forgot which two, but someone else around here should remember) that demonstrated how it could be done. As I recall it involved the echo and deepening of the voice involved in speaking into a metal bucket. Bottom line -- even a teenage girl can sound like a grown man by using the right tricks. I hope someone has a link to that audio.

 

Lady Gwyn and yolkboy.

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No idea about the second question. As to the first, there was a great audio put out by two of the posters that frequent this thread (totally forgot which two, but someone else around here should remember) that demonstrated how it could be done. As I recall it involved the echo and deepening of the voice involved in speaking into a metal bucket. Bottom line -- even a teenage girl can sound like a grown man by using the right tricks. I hope someone has a link to that audio.

I recall yolkboy talkin about such an experiment but I didn't know there was an audio. But given that he is the one doin the recordings on radio westeros, that's certainly his area of expertise.

 

No matter how you slice it, TKOTLT was a small person who almost certainly did not have a naturally booming voice. Aerys suspected Jaime who was what, fifteen? And I seriously doubt Howland, though grown, was more capable of a booming voice than Lyanna.

That's a very good point. HR was still a "lad" - the wiki has him born in or between 260-265, i.e. aged 16-21. That's basically the age of my students, and though some of them should definitely come with a button to turn down volume, I don't recall a single one whose voice could be described as "booming".

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BTW, I haven't received a single notification the whole day, is there some  issue with the forums again?

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No idea about the second question. As to the first, there was a great audio put out by two of the posters that frequent this thread (totally forgot which two, but someone else around here should remember) that demonstrated how it could be done. As I recall it involved the echo and deepening of the voice involved in speaking into a metal bucket. Bottom line -- even a teenage girl can sound like a grown man by using the right tricks. I hope someone has a link to that audio.

 

Look no further, look in the op, or in my signature. Or surf to Radio Westeros.

 

Or look in the book, wasn't it Brienne who was showing us how to do it? I can't seem to find the passage just now, and neither do I remember in which Radio Westeros episode, but it should be the one about Jon :)

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BTW, I haven't received a single notification the whole day, is there some  issue with the forums again?

 

I am getting them all right.

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Re: the "booming voice." I've always thought the impression we're supposed to be left with is that the KotLT was attempting to disguise their voice, and the technical quibbles are just that.

 

 

 

Lady Gwyn and yolkboy.

Yes -- that was who did it -- on Radio Westeros.

 

I recall yolkboy talkin about such an experiment but I didn't know there was an audio. But given that he is the one doin the recordings on radio westeros, that's certainly his area of expertise.

 

That's a very good point. HR was still a "lad" - the wiki has him born in or between 260-265, i.e. aged 16-21. That's basically the age of my students, and though some of them should definitely come with a button to turn down volume, I don't recall a single one whose voice could be described as "booming".

It might be that they only talked about the bucket experiment on the R.W. clip rather than actually recreating it there. But I have some recollection that they were confident that it would work if done correctly.

 

And the idea that the KotLT was disguising his or her voice also is persuasive.

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