R+L=J v 150

[SFDanny]

I find the idea that somehow women are physically unable to "bellow" rather ... Amusing? People who can "bellow" are people who are trained to do so. True, there are some people who seemed to be naturals at the skill, but mostly people who need to be heard amongst lots of noise on a regular basis learn to make themselves heard. Now, a young, highborn lass of Westeros doesn't fit our stereotype of a person who bellows her voice regularly, but since when has George R.R. Martin restricted his characters to behaviors that fit our stereotypes?

A young Westerosi lass who likes to train with her brother(s) in combat skills normally reserved for males might also find the training her brothers received in shouting commands as something she might want to learn? I think so. At least I don't find the vision of Lyanna Bran sees fighting with Benjen incompatible with a Lyanna who would also learn to "boom" her voice.

[BearQueen87]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117509-rl-j-v-106/page-13#entry6275295

If you think that the sound of a male adult speaking inside a sealed resonant cavity of thin-walled metal is a realistic guide to the sound of a female teenager speaking inside a perforated non-resonant cavity of thick-walled metal then it'll possibly be persuasive. Next, we'll get Vin Deisel and James Earl Jones to yell in a pillow and see if that can shatter glass. 
 

 

YOU FOUND IT?! Are you magical?? I only had a general idea of which thread it was in. (and apparently my general idea was...wrong)

 

 

So does everyone believe this?

 

Everyone? No. There are doubters, certainly. However I think if you were to break it down into percentages, more lean toward/have accepted RLJ.

[BearQueen87]

Earlier Lyanna is described with, "But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf." Again, consider the source(s), the children of Howland Reed. Nobody ever claims TKOTLT had an unnaturally deep manly voice. Aerys was convinced it was teenaged Jaime, after all.

 

Yes, this is a big hint IMO. Lyanna's booming voice was set up in the initial interaction with the squires.

[Ygrain]

Earlier Lyanna is described with, "But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf." Again, consider the source(s), the children of Howland Reed. Nobody ever claims TKOTLT had an unnaturally deep manly voice. Aerys was convinced it was teenaged Jaime, after all.

A good catch! 

[Kingmonkey]

Please. Brienne is neither talking particularly loudly nor trying to disguise her voice.

 

This is a point that is frequently raised as evidence for it being reasonable that Lyanna's voice could boom within her helmet. You're right, it has absolutely no bearing on what Lyanna could or couldn't do, I agree. That was my point. 

[Kingmonkey]

 

YOU FOUND IT?! Are you magical?? I only had a general idea of which thread it was in. (and apparently my general idea was...wrong)

 

 

Blood magic, ice magic, fire magic -- all are inferior to google magic. 

[Kingmonkey]

I don't think the other people you name are at all relevant to the discussion. We are explicitly told that the voice was booming through the helm, and the ONLY source for this booming voice through the helm are the tiny crannog children of tiny crannogman Howland Reed. We do not get any description of TKOTLT's voice from ANY OTHER PERSPECTIVE. So to compare it to a POV character experiencing a booming voice in real time of any of the old and or giant men you named is IMO absurd.

 

Um, when my 5'3 mother used to call me to come in for the night, you could hear her on the next block.

Also, one of my high school teachers, 5'1 Mrs. Olga Klapp, could be heard in an absolutely booming voice as she told me to put my feet down off the desk, and spit my DAMN gum out.

 

A young Westerosi lass who likes to train with her brother(s) in combat skills normally reserved for males might also find the training her brothers received in shouting commands as something she might want to learn? I think so. At least I don't find the vision of Lyanna Bran sees fighting with Benjen incompatible with a Lyanna who would also learn to "boom" her voice.

 

You're all thinking about this in terms of whether it could be considered reasonable to apply the word booming in this context. I never suggested it could not be. The question is irrelevant though, because we are dealing with a single text written by a single author. The words are not Meera's, the words are GRRMs. 

 

If we stop asking these generic questions about the meaning of words and start asking the relevant question of how the author actually uses the words, we get a different picture. Time and time again, GRRM associates booming voices with extraordinarily big men. Not just battle-trained men, but really, really big ones. The giants of Planetos. Benjen's voice does not boom. Ned's trained voice of command does not boom. Jaime's voice does not boom. Tywin's voice does not boom. Moqorro's does, Gregor Clegane's does, Robert's does, Noye's does, Greatjon's does, Strongboars does.

 

GRRM gives us a story of a notably small knight and uses a phrase he regularly, and virtually exclusively uses in association with notably big men, to emphasise that they are big. Brushing this aside as inconsequential requires ignoring the author's own usage. 

[Ygrain]

 

This is a point that is frequently raised as evidence for it being reasonable that Lyanna's voice could boom within her helmet. You're right, it has absolutely no bearing on what Lyanna could or couldn't do, I agree. That was my point. 

Not completely. Brienne's example does show that a woman speaking through helmet can be mistaken for a man, and that people see/hear what they expect to.

[BearQueen87]

Not completely. Brienne's example does show that a woman speaking through helmet can be mistaken for a man, and that people see/hear what they expect to.

 

That last point is especially true. The Lords at HH expected to find a male knight when searching for the KotLT because in their world, knights are men. They would never even consider looking for a female. Aerys expected to find an enemy behind the helm because he expects to find enemies everywhere. R probably expected to find a young man with dreams of glory who would need a talking to....what he found subverts his expectations and probably surprised him. The only daughter of the High Northern Lord? Who would have thought!

[SFDanny]

 

 

 

You're all thinking about this in terms of whether it could be considered reasonable to apply the word booming in this context. I never suggested it could not be. The question is irrelevant though, because we are dealing with a single text written by a single author. The words are not Meera's, the words are GRRMs. 

 

If we stop asking these generic questions about the meaning of words and start asking the relevant question of how the author actually uses the words, we get a different picture. Time and time again, GRRM associates booming voices with extraordinarily big men. Not just battle-trained men, but really, really big ones. The giants of Planetos. Benjen's voice does not boom. Ned's trained voice of command does not boom. Jaime's voice does not boom. Tywin's voice does not boom. Moqorro's does, Gregor Clegane's does, Robert's does, Noye's does, Greatjon's does, Strongboars does.

 

GRRM gives us a story of a notably small knight and uses a phrase he regularly, and virtually exclusively uses in association with notably big men, to emphasise that they are big. Brushing this aside as inconsequential requires ignoring the author's own usage. 

 

I think your argument undercuts itself. If we assume Martin can only use a word how it has been used before (large men with a booming voice) and then he uses it in a different but appropriate way (a small knight with a booming voice) it is your assumption, not Martin's use, that shows only a large men can have a booming voice unless there is some type of magical aid. Clearly life doesn't work that way, and there are small people, men and women, to whom it is appropriate to describe as having booming voices. My view is that Martin's works most often reflects this variety of real life, and this is an example. Could he mean there is a magical answer to this particular instance of a booming voice? Sure, but given his stated preference for a low magic world, I think it unlikely.

[Kingmonkey]

Not completely. Brienne's example does show that a woman speaking through helmet can be mistaken for a man, and that people see/hear what they expect to.

There's a difference between an enormous adult woman having her voice mistaken for a man and a small teenage girl having her voice mistaken for a particularly large man.

[IceFire125]

“...The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end.”

 

When the brand swung again, he bulled into it, swinging the bastard sword with both hands. The Valyrian steel sheared through leather, fur, wool, and flesh, but when the wildling fell he twisted, ripping the sword from Jon’s grasp. On the ground the sleeper sat up beneath his furs. Jon slid his dirk free, grabbing the man by the hair and jamming the point of the knife up under his chin as he reached for his—no, her—

His hand froze. “A girl.”

 

“Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

 

He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give er a quick clean death, at least. He was his father’s son. Wasn’t he? Wasn’t he?

“Do it,” she urged him after a moment. “Bastard. Do it. I can’t stay brave forever.” When the blow did not fall she turned her head to look at him.

Jon lowered his sword. “Go,” he muttered.

Ygritte stared.

“Now,” he said, “before my wits return. Go.”

She went.

 

**Like Father, like son.  Rhaegar knew that bringing Lyanna back to his mad Father would probably mean her life.

 

[Sly Wren]

 

 

 

You're all thinking about this in terms of whether it could be considered reasonable to apply the word booming in this context. I never suggested it could not be. The question is irrelevant though, because we are dealing with a single text written by a single author. The words are not Meera's, the words are GRRMs. 

 

If we stop asking these generic questions about the meaning of words and start asking the relevant question of how the author actually uses the words, we get a different picture. Time and time again, GRRM associates booming voices with extraordinarily big men. Not just battle-trained men, but really, really big ones. The giants of Planetos. Benjen's voice does not boom. Ned's trained voice of command does not boom. Jaime's voice does not boom. Tywin's voice does not boom. Moqorro's does, Gregor Clegane's does, Robert's does, Noye's does, Greatjon's does, Strongboars does.

 

GRRM gives us a story of a notably small knight and uses a phrase he regularly, and virtually exclusively uses in association with notably big men, to emphasise that they are big. Brushing this aside as inconsequential requires ignoring the author's own usage. 

Agreed. Plus the story is being told (among other reasons) during a trip to get Bran north. To get Bran to the Children and the old gods. Gods the Reeds clearly believe in--though Jojen's faith seems to be struggling by the time they get to the cave. The idea that they believe the story to be about their father's receiving aid from the old gods seems very plausible. And explains somewhat why they would tell it, and why they are surprised that Bran hasn't heard it. Surprised he hasn't heard such an inspiring story about how the old gods will help the weak--like Bran is physically weakened.

 

Martin may not like magical fixes, but he did make a world with magic. And it does a lot of crazy things. And nothing says Martin thinks that going to the old gods will work out well--he shows us Bloodraven. Shows us Jojen getting upset and glum--at least potentially because he's starting to lose hope/faith. But the idea that magic could help the crannogman does not seem out of the realm of Martinlandia. Nor the idea the the Reeds might end up being wrong--the help came, but was not worth it overall.

 

Edited for spelling

[Kingmonkey]

I think your argument undercuts itself. If we assume Martin can only use a word how it has been used before (large men with a booming voice) and then he uses it in a different but appropriate way (a small knight with a booming voice) it is your assumption, not Martin's use, that shows only a large men can have a booming voice unless there is some type of magical aid. Clearly life doesn't work that way, and there are small people, men and women, to whom it is appropriate to describe as having booming voices. My view is that Martin's works most often reflects this variety of real life, and this is an example. Could he mean there is a magical answer to this particular instance of a booming voice? Sure, but given his stated preference for a low magic world, I think it unlikely.

GRRM is not bound to use the phrase in the same way in every place, but if he does use the phrase in the same way in every place except one, don't you think that's a little odd? I don't see how you think this argument undercuts itself.

Your statement "then he uses it in a different but appropriate way" involves a judgement: appropriate. You deem it appropriate, that does not mean that GRRM deems it appropriate. The only way to determine whether GRRM deems it appropriate, short of asking him (I doubt he'd answer, of course) is to look at how he uses it elsewhere. Elsewhere, he uses it to describe the voices of huge people, not small people. You can't give the exception (KotLT) as evidence that the exception is part of the norm -- that argues that there's no such thing as an exception.

[Alia of the knife]

 
It was sometime right after Radio Westeros did their RLJ podcast, and before thread 100 but very close to it. So...I'm not very helpful. (sad face)
 
Slightly OT: omg you added Iwar to your siggy. *drools*

Yes, I thought I'd keep Wardruna handy if you needed a fix. :)

[SFDanny]

GRRM is not bound to use the phrase in the same way in every place, but if he does use the phrase in the same way in every place except one, don't you think that's a little odd? I don't see how you think this argument undercuts itself.

Your statement "then he uses it in a different but appropriate way" involves a judgement: appropriate. You deem it appropriate, that does not mean that GRRM deems it appropriate. The only way to determine whether GRRM deems it appropriate, short of asking him (I doubt he'd answer, of course) is to look at how he uses it elsewhere. Elsewhere, he uses it to describe the voices of huge people, not small people. You can't give the exception (KotLT) as evidence that the exception is part of the norm -- that argues that there's no such thing as an exception.

 

Of course it involves my judgement as to what is appropriate. That is a judgement based on our real world, but it is my judgement. So too, is your judgement involved in looking at the examples (all but one involving large men) and separating out the one example (involving a small man or woman) as needing explanation other than the natural variety one would expect in Martin's world, if it reflects our world. Yes, you could be right there is magic involved. No, I think it unlikely. There really isn't a great mystery here, in my opinion. It is a small man or woman who either has a "booming" voice, through natural variation or through the unremarkable process of learning to project one's voice. The fact Martin goes to the point of telling us how Jon and Robb are trained to project their voices because of the needs of a battle commander, tells me that the Starks knew the need for this training, and that it is likely Lyanna would be aware of it. If Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, no supernatural explanation is needed.

[Kingmonkey]

Of course it involves my judgement as to what is appropriate. That is a judgement based on our real world, but it is my judgement. So too, is your judgement involved in looking at the examples (all but one involving large men) and separating out the one example (involving a small man or woman) as needing explanation other than the natural variety one would expect in Martin's world, if it reflects our world.

But there IS NO such natural variety in GRRMs writing. It's just not there. There are no small people with booming voices. No booming schoolteachers or booming fishwives or booming mad mice.

When you say "one would expect in Martin's world, if it reflects our world" you are making a logical fallacy. One would expect, as it reflects our world, that Martin's world would contain the variety of people who SFDanny, or Ygraine, or Bearqueen etc. would describe as having booming voices. You cannot assume that those are the same people that Martin would describe as having booming voices, particularly when Martin's use of booming voices very clearly does NOT display that variety.

A "booming voice" is a subjective thing. It doesn't matter what you think it means, or what I think it means. It only matters what Martin thinks it means. If Martin types "pease" you know he means peas plural because that's how he uses it every time, even though he's got the archaism wrong and he means "peasen" (pease is singular). Regardless of what you or I or the dictionary says, that's what he means when he uses the word, so you should assume that if he uses it again, it means the same thing.

There is not one single other usage in the entire five books that matches with the KoTLT usage. Not one. If he'd only used the phrase two or three times, then that would mean nothing. When he uses it 16 times, turning a blind eye to it is simply ignoring the evidence. Is it conclusive? No, of course not. When the only other character in the entire books who's voice booms through their helm is the biggest person in the entire series, we should be asking questions.

[spoon89]

But there IS NO such natural variety in GRRMs writing. It's just not there. There are no small people with booming voices. No booming schoolteachers or booming fishwives or booming mad mice.

When you say "one would expect in Martin's world, if it reflects our world" you are making a logical fallacy. One would expect, as it reflects our world, that Martin's world would contain the variety of people who SFDanny, or Ygraine, or Bearqueen etc. would describe as having booming voices. You cannot assume that those are the same people that Martin would describe as having booming voices, particularly when Martin's use of booming voices very clearly does NOT display that variety.

A "booming voice" is a subjective thing. It doesn't matter what you think it means, or what I think it means. It only matters what Martin thinks it means. If Martin types "pease" you know he means peas plural because that's how he uses it every time, even though he's got the archaism wrong and he means "peasen" (pease is singular). Regardless of what you or I or the dictionary says, that's what he means when he uses the word, so you should assume that if he uses it again, it means the same thing.

There is not one single other usage in the entire five books that matches with the KoTLT usage. Not one. If he'd only used the phrase two or three times, then that would mean nothing. When he uses it 16 times, turning a blind eye to it is simply ignoring the evidence. Is it conclusive? No, of course not. When the only other character in the entire books who's voice booms through their helm is the biggest person in the entire series, we should be asking questions.

We have exactly one mention of the KotLT in the series (Bran II) and one mention in the World book. The only mention of his voice is in Bran II, when Merra is telling the story, a story that has been related many times to her, and has likely seen a bit of embellishment over the years. The written word is not unknown, but oral history like the story told is far more common, and when people relate an oral history in a story format there is a tendency for facts to creep. Old Nan's tales are wild and wooly, but more often times than not, they have fallen closer to the truth we later learn in POVs than what other sources say.

[Rickyhunt]

Would it be fair to say that 90% of people believe R + L = J?

[BearQueen87]

Would it be fair to say that 90% of people believe R + L = J?

 

Honestly? No. The readership at large is vast. There is no way of knowing how everyone--every single reader who has read ASOIAF at least once--understands Martin's work and what subjective conclusions each reader comes to on their own without any outside interference (say a forum or a news article). Now, if you want to take a small sample (say this forum) and extrapolate then I'd say that the majority of people here at Westeros.org believe in RLJ. I don't know if it's 90%. There are definitely some who are sticking to their non RLJ guns. But I would say a strong majority here at these forums believe RLJ.