R+L=J v 150

[spoon89]

Honestly? No. The readership at large is vast. There is no way of knowing how everyone--every single reader who has read ASOIAF at least once--understands Martin's work and what subjective conclusions each reader comes to on their own without any outside interference (say a forum or a news article). Now, if you want to take a small sample (say this forum) and extrapolate then I'd say that the majority of people here at Westeros.org believe in RLJ. I don't know if it's 90%. There are definitely some who are sticking to their non RLJ guns. But I would say a strong majority here at these forums believe RLJ.

 

I started the series in late 96 early 97. I have gone back and forth on R+L=J. There is a lot of evidence point to towards it, but there is some hints that it may be incorrect, in addition there is GRRM's tendency to break tropes, and R+L=J would fall right into a bunch of tropes  (Lost Prince, Royal, Blood, Rightful King, and Really Royalty to name a few).

[IceFire125]

 

I started the series in late 96 early 97. I have gone back and forth on R+L=J. There is a lot of evidence point to towards it, but there is some hints that it may be incorrect, in addition there is GRRM's tendency to break tropes, and R+L=J would fall right into a bunch of tropes  (Lost Prince, Royal, Blood, Rightful King, and Really Royalty to name a few).

 

like?

[Ygrain]

Would it be fair to say that 90% of people believe R + L = J?

Why the obsession with numbers? What does it matter if it's 80 or 90%?

 

I started the series in late 96 early 97. I have gone back and forth on R+L=J. There is a lot of evidence point to towards it, but there is some hints that it may be incorrect, in addition there is GRRM's tendency to break tropes, and R+L=J would fall right into a bunch of tropes  (Lost Prince, Royal, Blood, Rightful King, and Really Royalty to name a few).

If you want to break a trope, you must first build the background. The Lost Prince is usually happy and proud to learn who he is, he convinces all the good guys that he is who he claims to be and ascends the throne to start a new golden age. Do you see Jon doing these things without any twist? I don't.

 

And, yes, shed on us those hints that RLJ might be incorrect.

[SFDanny]

But there IS NO such natural variety in GRRMs writing. It's just not there. There are no small people with booming voices. No booming schoolteachers or booming fishwives or booming mad mice.

When you say "one would expect in Martin's world, if it reflects our world" you are making a logical fallacy. One would expect, as it reflects our world, that Martin's world would contain the variety of people who SFDanny, or Ygraine, or Bearqueen etc. would describe as having booming voices. You cannot assume that those are the same people that Martin would describe as having booming voices, particularly when Martin's use of booming voices very clearly does NOT display that variety.

A "booming voice" is a subjective thing. It doesn't matter what you think it means, or what I think it means. It only matters what Martin thinks it means. If Martin types "pease" you know he means peas plural because that's how he uses it every time, even though he's got the archaism wrong and he means "peasen" (pease is singular). Regardless of what you or I or the dictionary says, that's what he means when he uses the word, so you should assume that if he uses it again, it means the same thing.

There is not one single other usage in the entire five books that matches with the KoTLT usage. Not one. If he'd only used the phrase two or three times, then that would mean nothing. When he uses it 16 times, turning a blind eye to it is simply ignoring the evidence. Is it conclusive? No, of course not. When the only other character in the entire books who's voice booms through their helm is the biggest person in the entire series, we should be asking questions.

 

Kingmonkey, I like your contributions to this thread, and to this site, but on this we just will have to disagree. I think there is obviously at least one small person with a booming voice in Martin's world in the character of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. That you conclude that means magic must be involved is certainly a possible solution to what you see as a contradiction. I think your conclusion has little support, but I've already laid out my reasons for thinking so, and I find your response less than persuasive. I guess I'm not sure what we will get from further discussion of the issue, so let me leave it there, and I will be happy to read your contributions around other subjects. Take care.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
I started the series in late 96 early 97. I have gone back and forth on R+L=J. There is a lot of evidence point to towards it, but there is some hints that it may be incorrect, in addition there is GRRM's tendency to break tropes, and R+L=J would fall right into a bunch of tropes  (Lost Prince, Royal, Blood, Rightful King, and Really Royalty to name a few).

Where does 'rightful king' come from? That requires him to have been trueborn, which might have been the case, but for which there hadn't been anything conclusive yet. It also ignores the fact that Rhaegars line might have been taking out of the line of succession, as Viserys, not Aegon, became Aerys' heir after Rhaegar died, meaning Dany's claim night currently actually be much stronger. As well, it ignores the possibility that Aegon is not dead.

So no, I wouldn't simply state that Jon is the rightful king, hidden away somewhere.

[DMC]

Would it be fair to say that 90% of people believe R + L = J?

 

This gave me a thought - with the advent of Mturk, it actually would be pretty easy, and inexpensive, to take a (somewhat) scientific poll on this.  Plus you could have demo stats and even break it down by show watchers, book readers, and combo.  Hell, could probably even have westeros.org or equivalent site members as a subpop, although that'd likely take significantly more cash to get a good sample.

[Alia of the knife]

 
I started the series in late 96 early 97. I have gone back and forth on R+L=J. There is a lot of evidence point to towards it, but there is some hints that it may be incorrect, in addition there is GRRM's tendency to break tropes, and R+L=J would fall right into a bunch of tropes  (Lost Prince, Royal, Blood, Rightful King, and Really Royalty to name a few).

With all due respect, I think Martin's primary focus should be to tell a good story, not "break tropes," or "shock" tactics just for the sake of trying to stand out from other writers.

Right now, that seems to be a trend, and therefore becoming it's own cliche'

[Alia of the knife]

Where does 'rightful king' come from? That requires him to have been trueborn, which might have been the case, but for which there hadn't been anything conclusive yet. It also ignores the fact that Rhaegars line might have been taking out of the line of succession, as Viserys, not Aegon, became Aerys' heir after Rhaegar died, meaning Dany's claim night currently actually be much stronger. As well, it ignores the possibility that Aegon is not dead.

So no, I wouldn't simply state that Jon is the rightful king, hidden away somewhere.

Not to mention that finding out Ned was NOT his father may be his greatest loss. He may not want anything to do with the Targaryens just from not wanting to accept it.

[BearQueen87]

 

I started the series in late 96 early 97. I have gone back and forth on R+L=J. There is a lot of evidence point to towards it, but there is some hints that it may be incorrect, in addition there is GRRM's tendency to break tropes, and R+L=J would fall right into a bunch of tropes  (Lost Prince, Royal, Blood, Rightful King, and Really Royalty to name a few).

 

We often read that GRRM breaks tropes, but that's not really what he does. I prefer to call him the Messer-Upper-Of-Tropes. I quote LmL from a few threads back, he takes a well known trope and stripes it of its glory. It's not the same as breaking it. And, in order to mess up a trope, you first have to build it.

[Alia of the knife]

Is it not possible that Lyanna had a deeper, huskier voice to begin with?

Not all females have high pitched voices.

[Kingmonkey]

Kingmonkey, I like your contributions to this thread, and to this site, but on this we just will have to disagree. I think there is obviously at least one small person with a booming voice in Martin's world in the character of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. That you conclude that means magic must be involved is certainly a possible solution to what you see as a contradiction. I think your conclusion has little support, but I've already laid out my reasons for thinking so, and I find your response less than persuasive. I guess I'm not sure what we will get from further discussion of the issue, so let me leave it there, and I will be happy to read your contributions around other subjects. Take care.

 
Of course there is that one small person with a booming voice; it's the uniqueness that bothers me. We say that Lyanna's bed of blood indicates childbirth because that's the only way the phrase gets used elsewhere. Similarly the booming voice phrase only gets used elsewhere to indicate great big loud people. The phrase could be used of a girl with a good voice trying to be unrecognised; "bed of blood" could be used to indicate a bed a wounded person is lying in. We chose in the latter case to recognise the way GRRM uses that phrase is important, and I argue we should in the former case too. 
 
In discussing these matters of interpretation, we will inevitably often hit points where someone says "nope, not gonna be convinced." That's all good because it's all interpretive until GRRM clarifies. So we agree to disagree, that's fine with me. I have no mission to prove my point, I'm just along for the ride, and it's always fun debating with you.    :cheers:
 
A clarification though -- I don't consider this as a conclusion so much as a suspicion. That line has always bothered me as sounding wrong. I went looking to see if GRRM used booming voices in a compatible way elsewhere in the text, I found nothing that corresponded with that use and quite a lot that matched the exact way I originally read the phrase which lead me to be suspicious in the first place. Howland doing some voice trickery seemed like an idea worth exploring, and lo and behold there's a very obscure phrase describing Howland's abilities which might possibly indicate he indeed had such a skill.
 
Magic though? Not necessarily. Which brings me onto a related but different subject. Howland spent some time learning with the Greenseers so people naturally expect Howland to be magical. I'm unconvinced. 
 

"Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people."

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

 
The line "the magics of my people" is one I find interesting. That suggests these are traditional arts of the crannogmen. Either there's a lot of magic in the neck, or alternatively we're getting a list of specialist swamp-craft which appears magical to those who don't know how it's done. This could be unmagical skill being classed as being magics, rather in the way that metalworking was often considered magical. Breathing mud could mean hiding under the swamp breathing through a hollow reed, running on leaves could mean an expertise in finding safe places to stand. The one definitely magical thing mentioned is green dreams, the one which Howland does not have. I think it's quite feasible that Howland will turn out to be a swamp ninja rather than a swamp wizard.

[Sly Wren]

The line "the magics of my people" is one I find interesting. That suggests these are traditional arts of the crannogmen. Either there's a lot of magic in the neck, or alternatively we're getting a list of specialist swamp-craft which appears magical to those who don't know how it's done. This could be unmagical skill being classed as being magics, rather in the way that metalworking was often considered magical. Breathing mud could mean hiding under the swamp breathing through a hollow reed, running on leaves could mean an expertise in finding safe places to stand. The one definitely magical thing mentioned is green dreams, the one which Howland does not have. I think it's quite feasible that Howland will turn out to be a swamp ninja rather than a swamp wizard.

Oh, dear. Coming to a screen near you. Inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire: "Howland Reed: Swamp Ninja!"

 

And agree on your suspicions. The story reads both like a fairytale and a bit like a parable. A story of the power of faith in the old gods--and swamp ninjas. Does that mean what happened was actually magical? No--but seems to be some evidence that it could. And that the Reed kids think so. 

[spoon89]

like?

 

For one example, look at Dany's visions of the House of the Undying. The following passage is cited as evidence of R+L=J.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

 

The common interpretation is that this represents Jon (Lyanna's son) at the wall, due to the the association she has with the blue roses. This ties right into the R+L=J theory very nicely and is one of the few clues after AGoT, where the most of the evidence for the theory is found, due to most of it being Ned's thoughts, reflections and fever dreams, and all of that is up for interpretation.

 

However within those same visions, are visions of the past, present and future, some of which never come to pass. For example, lets look at the passage below from the same scene.

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

 

This is commonly interpreted as Rheago, Dany's stillborn son (The Stallion that Mounts the World) which never came to fruition due to the intercession of MMD, it is looked at as a clue that the visions can be things that never came to pass.

 

So there is the possibility that Dany's vision (the blue flower growing from a crack in a wall of ice) is a vision that never came to pass, for example if the issue of R+L died, was stillborn, or was female (since the Watch is exclusively male). If the result of R+L were female, it's likely that Rhaegar would see it as a success, a true recreation of the original three heads of the dragon. But that was cut short and never came to be, due Rhaegar's death and to the sack of KL.

 

 

Is it not possible that Lyanna had a deeper, huskier voice to begin with?

Not all females have high pitched voices.

 

It is noteworthy that the information we get from the world book indicates that Aerys dispatched Rhaegar to find the mystery knight since he thought that Jamie (15 years old at the time) was the KotLT.

 

 

We often read that GRRM breaks tropes, but that's not really what he does. I prefer to call him the Messer-Upper-Of-Tropes. I quote LmL from a few threads back, he takes a well known trope and stripes it of its glory. It's not the same as breaking it. And, in order to mess up a trope, you first have to build it.

 

True, bad wording on my part. It's also the case that the series has been around long enough to inspire and created variants of existing tropes and new tropes as well.

[Ygrain]

 

For one example, look at Dany's visions of the House of the Undying. The following passage is cited as evidence of R+L=J.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

 

The common interpretation is that this represents Jon (Lyanna's son) at the wall, due to the the association she has with the blue roses. This ties right into the R+L=J theory very nicely and is one of the few clues after AGoT, where the most of the evidence for the theory is found, due to most of it being Ned's thoughts, reflections and fever dreams, and all of that is up for interpretation.

 

However within those same visions, are visions of the past, present and future, some of which never come to pass. For example, lets look at the passage below from the same scene.

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

 

This is commonly interpreted as Rheago, Dany's stillborn son (The Stallion that Mounts the World) which never came to fruition due to the intercession of MMD, it is looked at as a clue that the visions can be things that never came to pass.

 

So there is the possibility that Dany's vision (the blue flower growing from a crack in a wall of ice) is a vision that never came to pass, for example if the issue of R+L died, was stillborn, or was female (since the Watch is exclusively male). If the result of R+L were female, it's likely that Rhaegar would see it as a success, a true recreation of the original three heads of the dragon. But that was cut short and never came to be, due Rhaegar's death and to the sack of KL.

And how is this a hint against? You may argue that it is inconclusive but I don't see how it undermines RLJ

[The Khal Who Rode West]

Is it not possible that Lyanna had a deeper, huskier voice to begin with?

Not all females have high pitched voices.

We've had Lyanna speak multiple times and that never came up... so probably not.

[Kingmonkey]

Is it not possible that Lyanna had a deeper, huskier voice to begin with?

Not all females have high pitched voices.

 

Of course she could have, but would GRRM have used the word "booming" to describe that? There are a lot of ways you could word it if you wanted to indicate a woman's voice that was deep enough to be mistaken for a man's, through a helmet. GRRM uses such a word once: "muffled". He uses "booming" to indicate not an indistinct property of voice, but a distinct one associated with the biggest and burliest giants in the series. 

 

The question isn't whether Lyanna had a deeper, husky voice, but whether she had a voice as deep as the Mountains, the only other person who's voice is described as booming through their helm, or other giants who's voices boom such as Moqorro, Robert, Noye, Strongboar, Greatjon etc. A 14-year old girl might not have a high-pitched voice, but if you heard one who sounded like Barry White, wouldn't you think something funny was going on?

[Sly Wren]

So there is the possibility that Dany's vision (the blue flower growing from a crack in a wall of ice) is a vision that never came to pass, for example if the issue of R+L died, was stillborn, or was female (since the Watch is exclusively male). If the result of R+L were female, it's likely that Rhaegar would see it as a success, a true recreation of the original three heads of the dragon. But that was cut short and never came to be, due Rhaegar's death and to the sack of KL.

Absolutely possible. Or that the vision meant something else in whole or in part. Or that she was just hallucinating. Martin's given us lots of reason to be wary of relying on or chasing prophecies and visions.

 

Quick question: when you say "hints that it may be incorrect," are you saying that the theory is assumed to be absolutely true, like a scientific formula or equation, and you have found evidence it may not be true at all? Just saying it's not a sure thing? Arguing that evidence is incomplete/equivocal and other options are also possible/likely? Or are you arguing something else entirely? 

[Alia of the knife]

 
Of course she could have, but would GRRM have used the word "booming" to describe that? There are a lot of ways you could word it if you wanted to indicate a woman's voice that was deep enough to be mistaken for a man's, through a helmet. GRRM uses such a word once: "muffled". He uses "booming" to indicate not an indistinct property of voice, but a distinct one associated with the biggest and burliest giants in the series. 
 
The question isn't whether Lyanna had a deeper, husky voice, but whether she had a voice as deep as the Mountains, the only other person who's voice is described as booming through their helm, or other giants who's voices boom such as Moqorro, Robert, Noye, Strongboar, Greatjon etc. A 14-year old girl might not have a high-pitched voice, but if you heard one who sounded like Barry White, wouldn't you think something funny was going on?

But the mystery knight is described As both small AND with a booming voice.

The other examples are all large men.

[PodrickMayne]

My question is if Jon Snow has Targaryn blood will he be able to ward into a dragon? I have it playing out like this; the ironborne that's sailing to meet Dany will be used for his ships to transport her army to westeros where she will meet Jon Snow assuming he's still alive and they end up together somehow dunno how realistic that is but that's my theory

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

My question is if Jon Snow has Targaryn blood will he be able to ward into a dragon? I have it playing out like this; the ironborne that's sailing to meet Dany will be used for his ships to transport her army to westeros where she will meet Jon Snow assuming he's still alive and they end up together somehow dunno how realistic that is but that's my theory

 

You should not trouble the elite fandom that comprises the R + L = J group with such trivial inquiries.

Consider this a mild warning :whip: