Veloknight Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Neither is in my favorites list, but Cat and Jon are both so I kind of get the feeling. It's easy, really, as long as you don't adopt your faves' biases it's doable :). Dany, Jon, Stannis, and Cat - these are probably my four favorite characters in the story. I spend a lot of time very confused watching flame wars. Yes, I love both. (even if Stannis is one of the lies Dany will slay) Just because you a fan of a fictional character doesn't automatically mean you have to hate their rival ffs Absolutely (to both)! Also, Stannis is just so funny... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the kitten Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Yes, I love both. (even if Stannis is one of the lies Dany will slay) Just because you a fan of a fictional character doesn't automatically mean you have to hate their rival ffsI don't hate Stannis because he's a rival to dany, i dislike him because he's a kinslayer, uncooperative, lustful (bad word choice, what i mean is it feels like he has fallen for this idea of him being AA because he was always the second child and roberts shadow. So he was easy prey to mel) and sexist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 They are both on the list, Stannis higher than Dany. Of course, I love most of these characters. I'm down for a Stannis and Dany marriage though. That would be epic and unexpected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I would've before Dance, because I loved Dany back in Storm, until Meereen ruined her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I think they are just not very similar, plus if you pledge your allegiance to one king it's difficult to support others.They're much more similar than some people want to admit. I just think Daenerys has a much more likeable personality. I also think some of the Stannis love comes from people being influenced by Davos. Just my opinion :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I would've before Dance, because I loved Dany back in Storm, until Meereen ruined her."Ruined." That's a bit much, no? Even for people who didn't like her Meereen arc (I thought it was quite good), why is the character completely ruined for you for the rest of the story? Do you feel the same way about Tyrion? A lot of people hated his ADwD arc too. Seems odd that you have already decided a character is ruined before seeing how things play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 They're much more similar than some people want to admit. I just think Daenerys has a much more likeable personality. I also think some of the Stannis love comes from people being influenced by Davos. Just my opinion :dunno: Seeing as we don't have a Stannis POV, I think Davos is essential to many people's view of Stannis. Especially Clash Stannis, who was an uber-dickhead. Then I think a lot of Stark fans hopped on the Stanwagon after the RW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Seeing as we don't have a Stannis POV, I think Davos is essential to many people's view of Stannis. Especially Clash Stannis, who was an uber-dickhead. Then I think a lot of Stark fans hopped on the Stanwagon after the RW.Of course we get most of our view of Stannis through Davos, I meant because Davos is such a likeable character. So some people think well if Davos is cool with this guy.... It's like the people I've seen trying to use Ned's support of Stannis as some kind of testament to the type of man Stannis is. That doesn't really work though, as Ned would have supported Joffrey if he was legitimate. Despite him being a horrible person/king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegonthetrueking Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Seeing that there is people like me that doesn't like both of them, must be someone that likes them both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetPea Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I love both of them. What's so strange about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 "Ruined." That's a bit much, no? Even for people who didn't like her Meereen arc (I thought it was quite good), why is the character completely ruined for you for the rest of the story? Do you feel the same way about Tyrion? A lot of people hated his ADwD arc too. Seems odd that you have already decided a character is ruined before seeing how things play out. I didn't say it was ruined beyond repair, did I? Maybe her arc in WoW makes me like her again, who knows. And yes, same goes for Tyrion. And to a lesser extent, Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefollowthecomet Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I love Dany and Like Stannis. I love Cat and Jon equally I love Arya and Sansa equally too Dany, Jon, Stannis, and Cat - these are probably my four favorite characters in the story. I spend a lot of time very confused watching flame wars. same here, although it amuses me more than anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 love stannis hate dany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I didn't really care for either when the story started. I became a fan of Stannis as the series went on and came to dislike Dany more and more in each book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I can see that it's possible although I admit that I don't. I like Dany although she has a lot of growing up to do but I really dislike Stannis. He killed his brother after all, so why isn't he a "kinslayer"? And the method he used shows me that he was afraid to face him in battle. And he's a lousy leader and strategist. That's the way that I see it. I've never understood why people so heavily hold Renly's death against Stannis. First off, Renly technically was the one who betrayed Stannis. Stannis was the older brother so Renly should have done his duty and supported his claim but he had his own designs on the throne. Second, Renly was going to kill Stannis himself. Stannis got the job done first but both brothers had designs on eliminating one another. It was smart for Stannis to not meet Renly in the field. He had 5,000 men at best to start the war with. Renly came to Storm's End with 20,000 men and still had 80,000 on stand by. No way he was going to win by meeting Renly's army in the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Cold Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I've never understood why people so heavily hold Renly's death against Stannis. First off, Renly technically was the one who betrayed Stannis. Stannis was the older brother so Renly should have done his duty and supported his claim but he had his own designs on the throne. Second, Renly was going to kill Stannis himself. Stannis got the job done first but both brothers had designs on eliminating one another. It was smart for Stannis to not meet Renly in the field. He had 5,000 men at best to start the war with. Renly came to Storm's End with 20,000 men and still had 80,000 on stand by. No way he was going to win by meeting Renly's army in the field. Even if you ignore the kinslaying aspect, Stannis won the war for the Lannisters with his decision to assassinate Renly. His actions led to alliance between Lannister and Tyrells. He then wasted the lives of the stormlanders at Blackwater. This makes victory for the Northern/Riverlands forces in the field practically impossible. Besides it was Stannis who attacked Renly's castle. It was Stannis who abandoned Robert in King's Landing and failed to do his duty to his elder brother and his king. Now the stormlands are under attack by Aegon and it's likely that most of the stormlords will lose their castles. Renly was a much better lord than Stannis was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max of the Magic Friends Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Even if you ignore the kinslaying aspect, Stannis won the war for the Lannisters with his decision to assassinate Renly. Considering that he didn't know that Melisandre assassinated Renly, it was not his decision for her to do so. His actions led to alliance between Lannister and Tyrells. It hardly seems fair to blame him for not preparing in case of every possible eventuality. He had to get his soldiers back if he was to have a chance at winning, and that just happened to lead to a frankly improbable chain of events that led to the Lannisters and Tyrells linking up in time to defeat him. Couldn't you as easily blame Edmure for guaranteeing Lannister victory by charging the Fords? Or Robb, for marrying the wrong woman or not telling Edmure his plan? Or Renly, for not following his brother in the first place, therefore splitting the opposition to the Lannisters? Blaming characters for not be omniscient in situations where they practically have no choice strikes me as unreasonable He then wasted the lives of the stormlanders at Blackwater. This makes victory for the Northern/Riverlands forces in the field practically impossible. Attacking King's Landing was his only option. Spending time lounging around in the South would just give the Lannisters more time to strengthen themselves and prepare, while giving him nothing. Tywin was still besieging the Riverlands and the Tyrells had no reason to move out from Bitterbridge, so far he knew. Striking right away, when the forces in the capital were heavily outnumbered, was his best and only option. It would have worked, too, if not for two factors that no one could not have predicted. Besides it was Stannis who attacked Renly's castle. After Renly declared himself king, despite knowing for a fact that Stannis had a better claim and would not under any circumstances bow to his younger brother. If we're to place blame on the first aggressor, then it was Renly that did so against Stannis, not the other way around. Renly expressed multiple times that he knew Stannis would never surrender to him, and so he was perfectly prepared to kill his brother from the start, even though Stannis had never done him any harm. Is that not aggressive? Is Stannis fighting for his claim against a usurper suddenly unjustified? It was Stannis who abandoned Robert in King's Landing and failed to do his duty to his elder brother and his king. I've posted this before, but I don't feel the idea of Stannis having "abandoned Robert" is accurate: Stannis fled because he had four major assumptions: 1. There is a Lannister Conspiracy underway in King's Landing. 2. It was this conspiracy that killed Jon Arryn to cover the truth. 3. This same conspiracy would kill him if he attempted to reveal the incest. 4. Robert would not believe him even if he tried. These are not unreasonable things to believe. Consider how many of us believed the first three points about the Lannisters in the first book, or even far later on. Without the benefit of several POV characters in strategic places and far more information than Stannis had available to him, it would appear definite that Cersei, Jamie, and Tywin were all part of a plot to cover up the incest and had killed Jon Arryn to do so. Stannis had gone to Jon Arryn with his suspicions because no one else would believe him. Now, Jon Arryn, his only ally and supporter, was dead. Stannis saw that his life was in danger. However, it was not simply a matter of self-preservation: if the poisoners were so bold as to kill the King's Hand to conceal the incest, why would they stop there? They could just as easily kill Robert if he threatened to learn the truth, or Stannis' family in retaliation - the Spider is said to have birds everywhere, and Stannis being the suspecting man that he is likely thought Varys was part of the scheme. As far as Point 4 goes, it is difficult to say whether it would truly be the case. Robert has been shown to be impulsive and none-too-fond of Cersei - it might be that he would belief Stannis and immediately call for her head. But past actions have shown that Stannis had no reason to believe that Robert would side with him. Robert ignored his younger brother and his Hand when evidence of Janos Slynt's corruption was brought to him, and had allowed corruption to spread under his reign for some time. The Lannisters had a considerable amount of control over his interests, as well, due to their ownership of the Crown's debts and place in key positions of government - with a man like Robert that was more than willing to shut his eyes to uncomfortable truths, would he be willing to put so much at risk on his brother's claim? A brother he did not even particularly like or regard? Perhaps he would have, but Stannis had no way of knowing that for sure. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, if he simply told Robert right away, there was a very good chance that both Robert and Stannis would be killed. It was better if, for the time being, Stannis kept Robert ignorant and thus safe - this would give Stannis more time to build his strength, collect more evidence, and move when the time was right. The wrench in the plan was Ned. What Stannis did not expect was that someone else would come to exactly the same conclusions that he had, and for that person to move so boldly (but also recklessly) against the Lannisters. And what happened when Ned did so? Robert was immediately killed the moment that he threatened to learn the truth, Ned was killed shortly after, and the Lannisters started the war in a much better position than they might have otherwise. Thus, by examining this, we can see that Stannis' actions were not unreasonable. Were they ideal? By no means. Had Stannis told Robert, there is a chance that the king would have believed him. Had Stannis stayed in King's Landing and told Ned, there is a chance that the two could have collaborated to expose the incest. But these are only chances, and ones that Stannis could only conclude were distant at best. Robert had no reason to believe him, and many to distrust him. While Stannis respected Ned's honor and integrity, he had no love for the man himself and no reason to believe that Stark would be any more inclined to believe than anyone else. And as far as Stannis knew, staying in King's Landing would be a death sentence not only to him, but to anyone he confided in. Leaving was the only sensible choice available to him, considering those odds. Contrary to some views, this was not "abandoning his brother" or "sulking at Dragonstone": it was protecting Robert by not putting him at risk of being killed by the Lannisters, and Stannis building his strength and his case rather than getting himself poisoned as well. In conclusion, Stannis acted reasonably, considering the information available to him. No other realistic choice was at hand, and any different action might have resulted in death for both him and those close to him. His retreat to Dragonstone was, in the end, the proper strategy for the time being. It was just circumstance that made it go awry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Yes. I would put them both on my list, provided it's a list of a decent length. I actually think they could work well together if they wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I don't really love either, but I think it would be hysterically funny to see them fall in love. Good times, I tell you. The conversations between them would be pure gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Balon Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I don't really love either, but I think it would be hysterically funny to see them fall in love. Good times, I tell you. The conversations between them would be pure gold. It would be a song of fire and more fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.