R+L=D & B+A=J ... I don't buy it

[Lord Ravenstark]

Ned and Ashara as parents of Jon always makes more sense than any other theory.

[Mithras]

Ned and Ashara as parents of Jon always makes more sense than any other theory.

 

Except it does not make sense why Ned didnot declare Ashara as Jon's mother to the public or to Jon.

[Rippounet]

Nothing in the books say that Jon was nursed in Starfall.

How is he milk brother to Ned Dayne if it didn't happen at Starfall? Or do you think Wylla was at the ToJ?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How is he milk brother to Ned Dayne if it didn't happen at Starfall? Or do you think Wylla was at the ToJ?

Probably. Somebody had to nurse Jon there or he would have starved weeks before he and Ned arrived at Starfall.

 

Or Wylla was his wetnurse on the journey north.

 

Jon had to be nursed several times per day for at least six months after Lyanna's death. 2-3 years are more likely.

[Rippounet]

No problem with competing theories. Just a problem with crackpots disproven about a million times.

But it seems to me the only real obstacle, as you pointed out, is Jon's supposed age. When we don't know at all when Ned and Cat met again after the war and their maester convenientely says bastards age faster. In the end it's not a worse obstacle than Ned's super-fast trip south for R+L=J...
And I don't know if this is "crackpot." Many elements of this theory (if not all) firmly rely on the text. "Fanciful" perhaps, but really not crackpot...

The reason R+L=J is so much stronger is because of extra symbolism within the text. And the TV show. As far as facts go though, I find R+L=J surprisingly weak and the door wide open to look for an extra surprise.

[Rippounet]

Probably. Somebody had to nurse Jon there or he would have starved weeks before he and Ned arrived at Starfall.
 
Or Wylla was his wetnurse on the journey north.
 
Jon had to be nursed several times per day for at least six months after Lyanna's death. 2-3 years are more likely.

I agree. But this is precisely what suggests Jon may be older than Ned says... He needs to be several months older to make the trip north, with or without Wylla.
That, or Ned stayed with Jon in Starfall several months before making the trip. But it's a bit odd, considering Ashara's suicide at the time...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But it seems to me the only real obstacle, as you pointed out, is Jon's supposed age. When we don't know at all when Ned and Cat met again after the war and their maester convenientely says bastards age faster. In the end it's not a worse obstacle than Ned's super-fast trip south for R+L=J...
And I don't know if this is "crackpot." Many elements of this theory (if not all) firmly rely on the text. "Fanciful" perhaps, but really not crackpot...

About six to twelve months after Robb's birth. There is simply no way to mistake a two-year-old for a six-to-twelve months old. Furthermore, it would require Dany to be a year older than she is as well.

 

And somehow Ned would have to get Jon and a reason to pass him off as his own bastard.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I agree. But this is precisely what suggests Jon may be older than Ned says... He needs to be several months older to make the trip north, with or without Wylla.
That, or Ned stayed with Jon in Starfall several months before making the trip. But it's a bit odd, considering Ashara's suicide at the time...

Why would he need to be older? As long as there is a wetnurse present, travelling is far from impossible for a healthy newborn. Case in point: Gilly's son from Craster's Keep to the Wall and her "son" from Eastwatch to Braavos and Oldtown.

[Rippounet]

From what I can tell, these are the only posts that attempt to answer "what is the point of having this parentage twist," and frankly, this is a really unfortunate explanation that in no way justifies such an unwieldy, overly complicated, not to mention totally unnecessary plot twist.  
  
In general, I think a lot of these types of theories could benefit a great deal from interrogating "why does this theory matter?" rather than focusing so singularly on "is this theory possible?"   

I happen to agree with you but people keep asking for a "purpose" to the theory so I provided one.

Now all this "matters" not because it disproves R+L=J but because it might help complement it.

For instance, realizing that Ashara's child if it survived, is a potential Sword of the Morning... or that the timeline we have for Jon and Dany's birth doesn't really fit if you take the SSM... I dunno, this thread seems quite interesting to me... ;-)

[Rippounet]

About six to twelve months after Robb's birth. There is simply no way to mistake a two-year-old for a six-to-twelve months old. Furthermore, it would require Dany to be a year older than she is as well.
 
And somehow Ned would have to get Jon and a reason to pass him off as his own bastard.

Fair enough. I guess B+A doesn't work.
Is N+A out of the realm of possibility though?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Fair enough. I guess B+A doesn't work.
Is N+A out of the realm of possibility though?

Not completely impossible, but damn unrealistic. It would require Ashara to travel through the war-torn Riverlands without being raped or murdered, march straight into the general's tent of an army of several ten thousand people hostile to her side, bang newly-wed Ned, get out the same way, again without being raped or murdered (or simply held for ransom), without anybody noticing.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Ned and Ashara as parents of Jon always makes more sense than any other theory.

 

Hardly.

"Keep Jon's parentage hidden, because that secret has the potential to set the realm on fire", or R+L=J, is perfectly reasonable. "Don't tell anybody, not even your son, not even in secrecy, who his mother is, because you don't want to dishonor her?", AKA N+A=J - that, Lord Stark, sounds very dubious. I believe that about Ashara Ned would've told at least Jon, maybe Cat, too, even if not the entire world. And I believe that about Rhaegar and Lyanna he would tell not a living soul, because the stake was just so damn high.

[Lord Ravenstark]

 
Hardly.
"Keep Jon's parentage hidden, because that secret has the potential to set the realm on fire", or R+L=J, is perfectly reasonable. "Don't tell anybody, not even your son, not even in secrecy, who his mother is, because you don't want to dishonor her?", AKA N+A=J - that, Lord Stark, sounds very dubious. I believe that about Ashara Ned would've told at least Jon, maybe Cat, too, even if not the entire world. And I believe that about Rhaegar and Lyanna he would tell not a living soul, because the stake was just so damn high.

Well, the second has a lot more textual evidence… as it is what Ned claims to be. If you choose to dismiss it as red herring, it is up to you but it still is a big possibility.

[Consigliere]

Well, i don't trust Ned  to be honest in the quote you gave us. Certainly not about Lyanna's remains, so to me it's not a valid proof she's buried there. That's about the third time i'm saying that, and you still repeat the same quote. It is at best doubtful, and for it to be valid i'd need another character  to confirm it. 

 

I said it before and will say it again - context matters. Ned has no reason to lie to Robert in this instance. Your default position seems to be that everything Ned says to Robert is dubious, which is just plain wrong.

[Rippounet]

Not completely impossible, but damn unrealistic. It would require Ashara to travel through the war-torn Riverlands without being raped or murdered, march straight into the general's tent of an army of several ten thousand people hostile to her side, bang newly-wed Ned, get out the same way, again without being raped or murdered (or simply held for ransom), without anybody noticing.

Hang on. If something happened between Ashara and the Starks at Harrenhal, why would Ashara leave the Riverlands in the first place?

 

Martin stated Ashara did not remain in Starfall during the whole duration of RR. We only know she was there at the very end. Why assume she had to travel so much in the first place? Why not assume she only returned to Starfall at the very end of the war, just a few weeks or so ahead of Ned?

And even supposing Ashara left the Riverlands after Harrenhal, wouldn't she have returned to King's Landing with Elia instead of Starfall? Why not her staying somewhere in-between like Darry?

 

In fact, the easiest way to explain the rumors of Ned and Ashara is if Ashara was with Ned during the rebellion. Possibly for a significant time too. It's not a stretch at all to think that she did actually march in the general's tent of the Northern army at some point. That's how tongues started wagging...

 

And while I don't actually buy Jon being Ashara's son, I totally see the triangle between Brandon, Ned and Ashara being real, and a baby coming out of it.

It can't be Dany though. I don't buy F(Aegon) either.

[GtrGbln]

 

Please!  Let's not debate PJ's alleged mental flaws or the flaws of every idea he has ever had.  2 specific theories were mentioned.  Let's discuss them.

 

Are you like PJ's alt or something? I know he used to have an account here but scurried off to youtube when people got sick of him. 

 

Seriously I lurked for a long time before making an account for myself and I can't say I've seen anyone defend him as passionately as you do since he himself left.

[The Khal Who Rode West]

How is he milk brother to Ned Dayne if it didn't happen at Starfall? Or do you think Wylla was at the ToJ?

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"
"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."
Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"
"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

This only says that Wylla has nursed Jon and Edric, and that Wylla's been at Starfall since before Edric's birth. Which is in 287. Jon is born in 283. We're not told that Wylla was in Starfall in 283, just that she joined their household sometime before Edric's birth. Which could mean any time and doesn't necessarily mean in time for Jon's birth.

So yeah we have nothing saying Jon was nursed at Starfall. Without knowing when Wylla joined House Dayne we can't say that she was there in 283 in time to nurse Jon. We know she nursed him just not that it was at Starfall

[The Dragons Hand]

Rule of thumb is if it's in a Preston Jacobs video you're gonna want a second opinion.

well he makes a bunch of assumptions that aren't supported by the text and then builds on those assumptions as though they are fact. i love how he says: how exactly brandon and ashara had time to make a baby isn't important...ummm what?!?

 

and he uses lemongate as part of his theory, so that's a strike against him...

Indeed. I feel like my signature adequately describes how I feel about the Illemonati

Bright Blue Eyes

 

:bang:

 

No. Preston Jacobs does not do well-researched videos. He makes one utterly impossible assumption and works from there. The guy can smooth-talk, and he can edit videos, but what's inside is utter BS.

 

Furthermore, he is actually making those videos for profit, and he steals the pictures he uses without acknowledging the artists. A year ago, some artist over at reddit called him out on it and everything came into the open.

I find after the first video or two the assumptions stacked upon selective readings are firmly in crackpot territory. The idea of ASOIAF being SF is absurd. "Arya Stark discovers the ruins of the statue of liberty on the beach and realizes she was on earth the whole time."

That's an actual G.R.R.M quote. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNRbV66Q-wo

 

Regarding the bold.

So, Preston Jacobs is like ASOIAF Vaati Vidya, but without the good sense to steal actually good ideas and set up a Patreon scheme? Oddly fitting.

dmc515

 

The only reason I've ever heard of Preston Jacobs is because of this forum and I still don't get why his opinion matters.

He's popular and a lot of people first introduction into ASOIAF theory-craft, so they take everything he says as the gospel. Although more people are competing for that space now, and most of them are pretty tame. Alt-X-Shift is a good one, though I personally have issues with his most recent video about how Arya's story will end. Oh and I feel this weird desire to defend A+J=T against the "Well, it cheapens the Tywin/Tyrion dynamic and justifies how Tywin treated Tyrion." argument.

Otherwise he'd be just as irrelevant as your regular crackpot.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

 

In fact, the easiest way to explain the rumors of Ned and Ashara is if Ashara was with Ned during the rebellion. Possibly for a significant time too. It's not a stretch at all to think that she did actually march in the general's tent of the Northern army at some point. That's how tongues started wagging...

 

 

I highly doubt that the daughter of a house loyal to the targyaren's was wandering around during a rebellion with one of the leaders of the rebellion. pretty sure the mad king would've made a very big deal about that

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

 

Well, Ned has this maester who likes to go around explaining that bastards grow faster than trueborn children.  This (while probably not true even in the GRRMverse) conveniently explains why Jon might seem older than he is claimed to be.

 

Also, Catelyn would not have traveled from Riverrun to Winterfell immediately after Rob's birth and Ned's return from the war.  She would have waited until Rob was (at least) several months old and it was safe to travel with an infant.  It was only then that she had an opportunity to meet Jon (along with Maester Luwin explaining that bastards grow faster  - oh, so that's why he looks so much older than Rob!).   It might be harder, at that point, to be sure that Jon was not a few months older than his stated age.

Couple of things:

We know Ned is seen as an honorable guy and from multiple sources we get the picture that the only dishonorable thing he ever did was have a child with another woman while married.

So WHY would Ned throw away his honor by pretending to have had a bastard with Ashara? What purpose does it serve? And if Jon is a few months older then Ned claims then I'm pretty sure he could have told Cat he slept with whoever before they got married. Doesn't that fend off the idea of him being dishonorable? 

I would need some really good reason for Ned to keep Ashara being Jon's mom a secret, one that matches the reason he keep's Lyanna being Jon's mom a secret, in order to throw out R+L=J.