Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rhaenys_Targaryen

Wow, I Never Noticed That v. 13

Recommended Posts

Noticed this yesterday during my re-read of AFfC Cersei VII

Drown, thought Cersei. "Highgarden has gold as well. You have my leave to hire sellsails from beyond the narrow sea."

"Pirates out of Myr and Lys, you mean?" Loras said with contempt. "The scum of the Free Cities?"

He is as insolent as his sister. "Sad to say, all of us must deal with scum from time to time," she said with poisonous sweetness. "Perhaps you have a better notion?"

"Only the Arbor has sufficient galleys to retake the mouth of the Mander from the ironmen and protect my brothers from their longships during their crossing. I beg Your Grace, send word to Dragonstone and command Lord Redwyne to raise his sails at once."

At least he has the sense to beg. Paxter Redwyne owned two hundred warships, and five times as many merchant carracks, wine cogs, trading galleys, and whalers. Redwyne was encamped beneath the walls of Dragonstone, however, and the greater part of his fleet was engaged in ferrying men across Blackwater Bay for the assault on that island stronghold. The remainder prowled Shipbreaker Bay to the south, where only their presence prevented Storm's End from being resupplied by sea.

Aurane Waters bristled at Ser Loras's suggestion. "If Lord Redwyne sails his ships away, how are we to supply our men on Dragonstone? Without the Arbor's galleys, how will we maintain the siege of Storm's End?"

Subtle allusion to Aurane, the pirate.  :D

(ETA:  Aurane was also a sellsail in Stannis' fleet.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Noticed this yesterday during my re-read of AFfC Cersei VII

Drown, thought Cersei. "Highgarden has gold as well. You have my leave to hire sellsails from beyond the narrow sea."

"Pirates out of Myr and Lys, you mean?" Loras said with contempt. "The scum of the Free Cities?"

He is as insolent as his sister. "Sad to say, all of us must deal with scum from time to time," she said with poisonous sweetness. "Perhaps you have a better notion?"

"Only the Arbor has sufficient galleys to retake the mouth of the Mander from the ironmen and protect my brothers from their longships during their crossing. I beg Your Grace, send word to Dragonstone and command Lord Redwyne to raise his sails at once."

At least he has the sense to beg. Paxter Redwyne owned two hundred warships, and five times as many merchant carracks, wine cogs, trading galleys, and whalers. Redwyne was encamped beneath the walls of Dragonstone, however, and the greater part of his fleet was engaged in ferrying men across Blackwater Bay for the assault on that island stronghold. The remainder prowled Shipbreaker Bay to the south, where only their presence prevented Storm's End from being resupplied by sea.

Aurane Waters bristled at Ser Loras's suggestion. "If Lord Redwyne sails his ships away, how are we to supply our men on Dragonstone? Without the Arbor's galleys, how will we maintain the siege of Storm's End?"

Subtle allusion to Aurane, the pirate.  :D

(ETA:  Aurane was also a sellsail in Stannis' fleet.)

So Loras thinks of Aurane as scum. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So Loras thinks of Aurane as scum. 

I wonder if

Spoiler

Aurane is really a pirate

or if people just think that he is, assuming a bastard sellsail would do that.

(more Winds spoilers)

Spoiler

I also wonder if the bodies that Lady Tolena reports washing up on the Dornish coast aren't due to some sort of navy battle(s), not pirating.  Say, Aurane vs (Victarion's lost ships?) Ironborn vs Myrish, et al. chasing after Aegon trying to prevent him from landing in Westeros.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sitting here watching Van Helsing, only half paying attention, and the clue on the missing map corner is from Valleria Stiella and the house symbol is a dragon! 

The name stood out to me as Valyrion Steel... Made by dragons :thumbsup:

OK. Carry on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I trust we are all aware of the idea that Tywin was poisoned, most commonly thought by Oberyn, but I am wondering whether Mace and and Paxter conspired to have Tywin murdered? 

I've long tried to make sense of the counsel meeting where Mace and Paxter share a look when Tywin agrees to send Petyr to woo Lysa, but Mathis pushes the proposal. And then, when Tywin suggests that he will give Doran justice for Elia's murder, Rowan looks fit to gag, but Paxter could care less. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crackpot warning!! Following on from the discussions above regarding Aurane and Loras, I think we can all surmise that Aurane is not to be trusted. Since we only have his word for what happened on Dragonstone, I have been musing lately on Arya's The Blind Girl chapter in Dance

One man had died at the feet of the Stranger, a single candle flickering above him. She could feel its heat, and the scent that it gave off tickled her nose. The candle burned with a dark red flame, she knew; for those with eyes, the corpse would have seemed awash in a ruddy glow. Before summoning the serving men to carry him away, she knelt and felt his face, tracing the line of his jaw, brushing her fingers across his cheeks and nose, touching his hair. Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face, unlined. He was young. She wondered what had brought him here to seek the gift of death. Dying bravos oft found their way to the House of Black and White, to hasten their ends, but this man had no wounds that she could find.

And then later............

On the handsome man she found four golden dragons out of Westeros. 

If we go back to Thrones, and to Sansa viewing the Hand's Tourney.......

Her eyes were only for Ser Loras. When the white horse stopped in front of her, she thought her heart would burst.

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. "Sweet lady," he said, "no victory is half so beautiful as you." Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. (Sansa II in Thrones)

I could be looking far too much into this (and probably am) or it could be obvious to everyone but me (as so many things have before)......but it is interesting that Arya comes across this body while blind. Arya Stark would have known Loras Tyrell instantly, having seen him at Court. It is something that has been nagging away at me recently - was Arya blind when she found the body because she would recognize it? I know it is an extremely tenuous link - based mostly on Loras's hair and age, Westerosi coins (four gold dragons - so this was either a thief or someone with access to money) and the fact that we only have third person reports of Loras from the time he sets sail for Dragonstone onwards. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edmure had given commands, and a headsman’s block had been set up before the heart tree.

Lord Rickard Karstark life's blood fed blood fed Bloodraven. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/25/2016 at 2:52 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I trust we are all aware of the idea that Tywin was poisoned, most commonly thought by Oberyn, but I am wondering whether Mace and and Paxter conspired to have Tywin murdered? 

I've long tried to make sense of the counsel meeting where Mace and Paxter share a look when Tywin agrees to send Petyr to woo Lysa, but Mathis pushes the proposal. And then, when Tywin suggests that he will give Doran justice for Elia's murder, Rowan looks fit to gag, but Paxter could care less. 

Oberyn is the obvious choice and also a obvious patsy to be used by someone else. Varys comes to mind but I can see Mace being behind it. He's been holding on to that Hand chair for awhile it seems.

It could be that Rowan has more conflict with Dorne than Redwyne. Make's sense considering that Dorne has never been a naval power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/26/2016 at 5:39 AM, dornishdame said:

Crackpot warning!! Following on from the discussions above regarding Aurane and Loras, I think we can all surmise that Aurane is not to be trusted. Since we only have his word for what happened on Dragonstone, I have been musing lately on Arya's The Blind Girl chapter in Dance

One man had died at the feet of the Stranger, a single candle flickering above him. She could feel its heat, and the scent that it gave off tickled her nose. The candle burned with a dark red flame, she knew; for those with eyes, the corpse would have seemed awash in a ruddy glow. Before summoning the serving men to carry him away, she knelt and felt his face, tracing the line of his jaw, brushing her fingers across his cheeks and nose, touching his hair. Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face, unlined. He was young. She wondered what had brought him here to seek the gift of death. Dying bravos oft found their way to the House of Black and White, to hasten their ends, but this man had no wounds that she could find.

And then later............

On the handsome man she found four golden dragons out of Westeros. 

If we go back to Thrones, and to Sansa viewing the Hand's Tourney.......

Her eyes were only for Ser Loras. When the white horse stopped in front of her, she thought her heart would burst.

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. "Sweet lady," he said, "no victory is half so beautiful as you." Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. (Sansa II in Thrones)

I could be looking far too much into this (and probably am) or it could be obvious to everyone but me (as so many things have before)......but it is interesting that Arya comes across this body while blind. Arya Stark would have known Loras Tyrell instantly, having seen him at Court. It is something that has been nagging away at me recently - was Arya blind when she found the body because she would recognize it? I know it is an extremely tenuous link - based mostly on Loras's hair and age, Westerosi coins (four gold dragons - so this was either a thief or someone with access to money) and the fact that we only have third person reports of Loras from the time he sets sail for Dragonstone onwards. 

I've seen theories on this man before, most pointing to Ser Loras or Tyrek Lannister.  I don't recall a decent motive of suicide for either, however. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22/2/2016 at 2:44 AM, Isobel Harper said:

I just re-read that chapter (Cersei VII).  Aurane Waters gives a second contradiction in those same two scenes.  First, he suggests that the Redwyne fleet should defend The Reach, then he suggests that the Redwyne fleet should continue the siege on Dragonstone and Storm's End.  (He suggests these things, but doesn't give an opinion, subtly trying to influence the conversation.  Notice how Loras later nearly quotes Aurane in regards to only The Arbor having enough ships to defend The Reach.)

"Half as many ships would still be five hundred, my lord," Waters pointed out to Orton Merryweather. "Only the Arbor has enough strength at sea to oppose a fleet that size."

"What of your new dromonds?" asked Ser Harys. "The longships of the ironmen cannot stand before our dromonds, surely? King Robert's Hammer is the mightiest warship in all Westeros."

"She was," said Waters. "Sweet Cersei will be her equal, once complete, and Lord Tywin will be twice the size of either. Only half are fitted out, however, and none is fully crewed. Even when they are, the numbers would be greatly against us. The common longship is small compared to our galleys, this is true, but the ironmen have larger ships as well. Lord Balon's Great Kraken and the warships of the Iron Fleet were made for battle, not for raids. They are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength, and most are better crewed and captained. The ironmen live their whole lives at sea."

Then, a few pages later...

"Only the Arbor has sufficient galleys to retake the mouth of the Mander from the ironmen and protect my brothers from their longships during their crossing. I beg Your Grace, send word to Dragonstone and command Lord Redwyne to raise his sails at once."  (Loras)

...

Aurane Waters bristled at Ser Loras's suggestion. "If Lord Redwyne sails his ships away, how are we to supply our men on Dragonstone? Without the Arbor's galleys, how will we maintain the siege of Storm's End?"

...the Knight of Flowers sank to one knee. "Your Grace, let me take Dragonstone."

..."Your courage takes my breath away, Ser Loras," Cersei said. "Lord Waters, are any of the new dromonds fit to put to sea?"

"Sweet Cersei is, Your Grace. A swift ship, and as strong as the queen she's named for."

First, Aurane downplays the dromonds when it's suggested they assist The Reach against the Ironborn.  Then, he feels they are fit to fight when the conquest of Dragonstone and Storm's End is mentioned.  It appears that Aurane wished to keep his dromonds out of The Reach and get the Redwyne fleet out of Dragonstone and Storm's End. 

Ultimately, Aurane's and Loras' conquest leads to a defenseless east.  (Redwyne, et al. sail to The Reach.)  This lack of defenses leads to an easy (more or less) conquest of The Stormlands for Aegon and the Golden Company.  Perhaps this was Aurane Waters intent.  (Or perhaps Aurane was working under the assumption that Stannis had hired the Golden Company1.)  Or perhaps the simultaneous defenseless east via Aurane and Aegon's conquest is a coincidence, and Aurane only wanted to free the eastern waters in order to become a pirate.  But that's one heck of a coincidence.

(1In Cersei IV, three Cersei chapters previously: "Whilst we await Lord Walder's death, there is another matter," said Aurane Waters. "The Golden Company has broken its contract with Myr. Around the docks I've heard men say that Lord Stannis has hired them and is bringing them across the sea.")

Of course, Aurane has his purposes and driving Ser Loras into a suicide mission is part of it, but I considered that just part of his way of looking for the Queen's approval. I don't think he'd have fled if she hadn't been imprisoned, war galleys are not the best ships for a raider/pirate, as the Ironborn have proven.
Aurane is cunning, but I can't see him important (and strong) enough to have an agenda on his own, either he's someone's instrument or he just fled for fear of losing the power he'd gained under Cersei.

On 22/2/2016 at 10:46 PM, The Snow Bear said:

I needed three runs of the books and two runs of Dunk and Egg to find out, that Brienne hat Dunks shield painted as hers

When I first read D&E I realized I'd seen the same sigil somewhere, but I only realized it was on Brienne's shield here on the forum

On 27/2/2016 at 6:49 AM, Lord Wraith said:

Oberyn is the obvious choice and also a obvious patsy to be used by someone else. Varys comes to mind but I can see Mace being behind it. He's been holding on to that Hand chair for awhile it seems.

It could be that Rowan has more conflict with Dorne than Redwyne. Make's sense considering that Dorne has never been a naval power.

Oberyn.... a patsy? No, he's far too smart to be used by someone like Mace and I can't see him trusting Varys.

Mace has been looking forward to get his hold to the Hand's seat, of course, but he would've never sided with Oberyn, nor Oberyn would've sided with him.

On 26/2/2016 at 0:39 PM, dornishdame said:

Crackpot warning!! Following on from the discussions above regarding Aurane and Loras, I think we can all surmise that Aurane is not to be trusted. Since we only have his word for what happened on Dragonstone, I have been musing lately on Arya's The Blind Girl chapter in Dance

One man had died at the feet of the Stranger, a single candle flickering above him. She could feel its heat, and the scent that it gave off tickled her nose. The candle burned with a dark red flame, she knew; for those with eyes, the corpse would have seemed awash in a ruddy glow. Before summoning the serving men to carry him away, she knelt and felt his face, tracing the line of his jaw, brushing her fingers across his cheeks and nose, touching his hair. Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face, unlined. He was young. She wondered what had brought him here to seek the gift of death. Dying bravos oft found their way to the House of Black and White, to hasten their ends, but this man had no wounds that she could find.

And then later............

On the handsome man she found four golden dragons out of Westeros. 

If we go back to Thrones, and to Sansa viewing the Hand's Tourney.......

Her eyes were only for Ser Loras. When the white horse stopped in front of her, she thought her heart would burst.

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. "Sweet lady," he said, "no victory is half so beautiful as you." Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. (Sansa II in Thrones)

I could be looking far too much into this (and probably am) or it could be obvious to everyone but me (as so many things have before)......but it is interesting that Arya comes across this body while blind. Arya Stark would have known Loras Tyrell instantly, having seen him at Court. It is something that has been nagging away at me recently - was Arya blind when she found the body because she would recognize it? I know it is an extremely tenuous link - based mostly on Loras's hair and age, Westerosi coins (four gold dragons - so this was either a thief or someone with access to money) and the fact that we only have third person reports of Loras from the time he sets sail for Dragonstone onwards. 

Interesting enough, especially the four dragons detail, but why should Loras go so far as Braavos only to commit suicide? Not to mention that Arya found no wounds on him, and we know he'd led the Dragonstone storm, so even if he's not as close to death as the Tyrells claim, he'll definitely have some scars.

It could be someone Arya knew, but I can't see why it should be Loras... after all, he's not the only youth with curly hair in westeros!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Egg said:

Interesting enough, especially the four dragons detail, but why should Loras go so far as Braavos only to commit suicide? Not to mention that Arya found no wounds on him, and we know he'd led the Dragonstone storm, so even if he's not as close to death as the Tyrells claim, he'll definitely have some scars.

It could be someone Arya knew, but I can't see why it should be Loras... after all, he's not the only youth with curly hair in westeros!

As I said in my original post, I myself think the link extremely tenuous. And it was very much a musing aloud thought. We don't know for certain what happened to Loras after he left King's Landing, because no POV character was with him. We only have the word of Aurane Waters - a man clearly not to be trusted. And Loras being the man in the House of Black and White does not necessarily equal suicide....he could have been left there drugged, unconscious and/or poisoned by a third party. Which would account for the lack of wounds. Personally, I have filed it under the list of my crackpot-ish ideas, but sometimes thinking aloud brings new ideas to the table. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×