The Valkyrie of the FM - theory about the First and the First Reborn

[Lady Barbrey]

:cheers:   Well reasoned and well said, Lady Barbrey!  The paragraph about the Hound is particularly profound.

Thanks Lady Blizzardborn! Funny how the posts on Valkyrie and other myths started a train of thought that gave me at least a solution to something that was puzzling me, in this case Arya's reaction in that scene.

I looked up pictures of Lady Justice, which I only vaguely remembered when I posted that thought. She has a Needle of her own!

[sweetsunray]

 
I felt that their way of "training" her was a bit strange: "what do you know that you didn't know when you left us"?
But it was effective, she learns Braavosi, and the chapter when she was blind was very interesting. She actually learned a lot. I thought she was only learning to become an assassin, but the FM are mysterious people. Why is she (apparently) the only member with the same type of training? Tell me if I am wrong, but I don't remember anyone except her in that situation in the House of Black and White.
 
I can buy it. I really want her to change and learn from her experiences. And if there is more than meets the eye with the FM (and Arya) it will be really intriguing.

 

There are acolytes there, and when she first is there, growing accustomed to the place, there's a blind acolyte.

 

BTW. In connection to what she "learned". Remember the Lyseni slaver ships? She found out how one of them got stuck in Braavos and taken into custody for having slaves. She informed the kindly man where they go the slaves from - Hardhome. And that there were actually 2 Lyseni ships, and how one most likely DID manage to return to Lys with the wildling women and children, and they talk of returning to Hardhome to fetch even more women and children to sell as slaves.

 

Not long after Tychio arrives at the wall with 3 Braavosi ships. Why does he need 3 ships? He travels all by himself. Jon brings up Hardhome himself and wants all 3 ships to rescue people. It's not the sole things he gets out of the negotiations with Tychio, but he does think afterwards "that was too easy". And then later he gets a letter telling him that the Braavos ships only take women and children.

 

In other words, Tychio came with 3 ships already intent on using those ships to get women and children out of Hardhome before Lyseni slavers would return to the place. Arya helped Braavos in their anti-slavery goal. So, she's directly having an influence on Braavos politics and the lives of many women and children of Westeros. Arya saved a great many people with that.

 

When the kindly man takes her down to the "vault" with faces, deep underground (bankers and merchants initially hid their wealth in old iron mines, and FM have a mining history), he takes out an ornate key. He's possibly one of the 26 keyholders. Well there are a great many keyholders of descent but only with a ceremonious key. Only 26 of those would be the actual keyholders to the Braavos vaults. The kindly man has an actual vault key.

 

 

And finally, Tychio gifts 6 ironborn + Theon to Stannis and Asha. Theon is the only man who can make Euron's kingsmoot illegal. It seems that the FM killed Balon for Euron for him dumping a dragon egg to the bottom of the ocean where it can never hatch. He became King of the Iron Islands because of it the next day, but then Theon is delivered by an Iron Banker to nullify Euron's appointment.

 

Stannis in Theon chapter of WoW

[spoiler]

Tychio may have given one other info to Stannis. Though he ends his Deepwood Motte letter respectfully with regards to Arya Stark, and he ought to believe her to extremely important for his war - she being Ned's little girl to the mountain clans and such. But he completely dismisses her as the "Stark girl" to be sent to the Wall with Justin Massey (renowned womanizer) and a small escort. And it sounds like he's sending Justin Massey on some unacomplishable mission to find 20k sellswords. The Golden Company is one of the largest, and that's 10k. Is he simply sending Justin away to be rid of him? Does Tychio know where the real Arya is and did he tell Stannis, and that therefore Stannis knows the Stark girl =/= Arya?[/spoiler]

[sweetsunray]

Thanks Lady Blizzardborn! Funny how the posts on Valkyrie and other myths started a train of thought that gave me at least a solution to something that was puzzling me, in this case Arya's reaction in that scene.

I looked up pictures of Lady Justice, which I only vaguely remembered when I posted that thought. She has a Needle of her own!

 

Another great association: blindfold, sword and scales, those are the symbols of Lady Justice.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Given her original character arc of falling in love with Jon, I think perhaps she may be the one to kill him.
Hmm.

[Lady Barbrey]

 
There are acolytes there, and when she first is there, growing accustomed to the place, there's a blind acolyte.
 
BTW. In connection to what she "learned". Remember the Lyseni slaver ships? She found out how one of them got stuck in Braavos and taken into custody for having slaves. She informed the kindly man where they go the slaves from - Hardhome. And that there were actually 2 Lyseni ships, and how one most likely DID manage to return to Lys with the wildling women and children, and they talk of returning to Hardhome to fetch even more women and children to sell as slaves.
 
Not long after Tychio arrives at the wall with 3 Braavosi ships. Why does he need 3 ships? He travels all by himself. Jon brings up Hardhome himself and wants all 3 ships to rescue people. It's not the sole things he gets out of the negotiations with Tychio, but he does think afterwards "that was too easy". And then later he gets a letter telling him that the Braavos ships only take women and children.
 
In other words, Tychio came with 3 ships already intent on using those ships to get women and children out of Hardhome before Lyseni slavers would return to the place. Arya helped Braavos in their anti-slavery goal. So, she's directly having an influence on Braavos politics and the lives of many women and children of Westeros. Arya saved a great many people with that.
 
When the kindly man takes her down to the "vault" with faces, deep underground (bankers and merchants initially hid their wealth in old iron mines, and FM have a mining history), he takes out an ornate key. He's possibly one of the 26 keyholders. Well there are a great many keyholders of descent but only with a ceremonious key. Only 26 of those would be the actual keyholders to the Braavos vaults. The kindly man has an actual vault key.
 
And finally, Tychio gifts 6 ironborn + Theon to Stannis and Asha. Theon is the only man who can make Euron's kingsmoot illegal. It seems that the FM killed Balon for Euron for him dumping a dragon egg to the bottom of the ocean where it can never hatch. He became King of the Iron Islands because of it the next day, but then Theon is delivered by an Iron Banker to nullify Euron's appointment.
 
Tychio may have given one other info to Stannis. Though he ends his Deepwood Motte letter respectfully with regards to Arya Stark, and he ought to believe her to extremely important for his war - she being Ned's little girl to the mountain clans and such. But he completely dismisses her as the "Stark girl" to be sent to the Wall with Justin Massey (renowned womanizer) and a small escort. And it sounds like he's sending Justin Massey on some unacomplishable mission to find 20k sellswords. The Golden Company is one of the largest, and that's 10k. Is he simply sending Justin away to be rid of him? Does Tychio know where the real Arya is and did he tell Stannis, and that therefore Stannis knows the Stark girl =/= Arya?

I've read the books only once, as they first came out (yes, i read GOT more than 15 years ago) and I remember struggling to put this all together. You've cleared up some of the muddy waters. I'm just starting a reread of all of them, this time as an English lit reader rather than as a fantasy reader, though one never cancels out the other, and will pay particular attention to this. Hopefully this thread is still going when i get to that part!

Youve said some things about Sansa that connect to Arya in terms of Norse myth. Id be interested in expansion. When I read the books i wasnt sure how she fit but had just been to an apple festival so knew Sansa was a type of apple. That led me to Idunn, goddess of youth, and apples!

Idunn's myth contains many parallels to Sansa, including being stolen from Asgard by Loki 'for her protection' but really to be sold off to a jotunn with eagle and falcon imagery that suggests the Eyrie. Im sure you already know about this Idunn. If not, I suggest a quick look. Resemblances are very striking. What this myth did for me was more about identifying Littlefinger as the Loki figure. Im not sure why but I had always hoped he wouldnt be so important. Also interesting is that Idunn after her escape ends up at the 'wall' of Asgard - perhaps an indication of where Sansa is going next or soon.

When I was looking up valkyries recently after you got me thinking about them, I noticed a similar group of females called the dis or idis, that might actually encompass valkyries, norns, etc., as a group, or be a distinct group on their own as well. Dis apparently means 'lady'. 'Idis' is thought by Grimm to be related to Idunn. So here's another possible relationship at the base of Sansa's direwolf's name.

How do you relate Sansa to Arya in Arya's valkyrie role? In the mythology they seem to be related but I haven't quite sorted through it. There isn't too little, there seems to be too much of it that is similar. If Arya is a "chooser of the slain" and needs to learn a few things to get her choices right, what is Sansa (I believe you said she might be related to Freya who is responsible for those not chosen?)and what do you think she must learn in terms of her role. If anything? Another challenge!

[Zizoz]

The scene where Ser Ilyn is introduced (in Sansa's first chapter) seems to tie him to the Hound as well. Any thoughts on that scene?

The last paragraph of post 82 seems spoilery.

[Meera of Tarth]

 

There are acolytes there, and when she first is there, growing accustomed to the place, there's a blind acolyte.

 

BTW. In connection to what she "learned". Remember the Lyseni slaver ships? She found out how one of them got stuck in Braavos and taken into custody for having slaves. She informed the kindly man where they go the slaves from - Hardhome. And that there were actually 2 Lyseni ships, and how one most likely DID manage to return to Lys with the wildling women and children, and they talk of returning to Hardhome to fetch even more women and children to sell as slaves.

 

Not long after Tychio arrives at the wall with 3 Braavosi ships. Why does he need 3 ships? He travels all by himself. Jon brings up Hardhome himself and wants all 3 ships to rescue people. It's not the sole things he gets out of the negotiations with Tychio, but he does think afterwards "that was too easy". And then later he gets a letter telling him that the Braavos ships only take women and children.

 

In other words, Tychio came with 3 ships already intent on using those ships to get women and children out of Hardhome before Lyseni slavers would return to the place. Arya helped Braavos in their anti-slavery goal. So, she's directly having an influence on Braavos politics and the lives of many women and children of Westeros. Arya saved a great many people with that.

 

When the kindly man takes her down to the "vault" with faces, deep underground (bankers and merchants initially hid their wealth in old iron mines, and FM have a mining history), he takes out an ornate key. He's possibly one of the 26 keyholders. Well there are a great many keyholders of descent but only with a ceremonious key. Only 26 of those would be the actual keyholders to the Braavos vaults. The kindly man has an actual vault key.

 

And finally, Tychio gifts 6 ironborn + Theon to Stannis and Asha. Theon is the only man who can make Euron's kingsmoot illegal. It seems that the FM killed Balon for Euron for him dumping a dragon egg to the bottom of the ocean where it can never hatch. He became King of the Iron Islands because of it the next day, but then Theon is delivered by an Iron Banker to nullify Euron's appointment.

 

Tychio may have given one other info to Stannis. Though he ends his Deepwood Motte letter respectfully with regards to Arya Stark, and he ought to believe her to extremely important for his war - she being Ned's little girl to the mountain clans and such. But he completely dismisses her as the "Stark girl" to be sent to the Wall with Justin Massey (renowned womanizer) and a small escort. And it sounds like he's sending Justin Massey on some unacomplishable mission to find 20k sellswords. The Golden Company is one of the largest, and that's 10k. Is he simply sending Justin away to be rid of him? Does Tychio know where the real Arya is and did he tell Stannis, and that therefore Stannis knows the Stark girl =/= Arya?

Wow, I'm impressed. I think I need a re-reading. I vaguely remembered some of these things (the slavers..) but never tried to connect Arya's storyline with other's: and never Tychio or Theon. I thought that the FM knew that Arya encountered Sam and they might have been interested in following him (Oldtown's plot is extremely mysterious too), because we know for sure that they know that she killed Dareon.

 

I'm sure that the FM's rituals/motivations will play an important role in the upcoming books. The way they are written can not be just for literary purposes. And they are connected to the politics part of the story, if not more.

[Lady Barbrey]

Given her original character arc of falling in love with Jon, I think perhaps she may be the one to kill him.
Hmm.

Regardless of the original, I have long thought this a possibility. Even worse, I could see her do this in alliance with Bran. The betrayal by the NW being just a taste of the betrayal he'll feel when turned on by the two people he has loved most in the world. Chokes me up just thinking about it! I still feel that Jon was born to be a sacrificial king to power the spells in the Wall. I hope not but could be.

[Evolett]

I've been following the arguments about vengeance versus justice with some interest. Partly this is because of my interest in real world Barrows,which draugr, revenants of the dead,are said to haunt. Their purpose is always vengeance. The description of a draugr rereminded me strongly of Lady Stoneheart and vengeance is her stated goal. So there is one parent of Arya.

But while vengeance motivates her mother, it is justice that motivates her father. He is literally judge, jury and executioner. However, as lord of the realm, he is not a vigilante. His actual lawful right and role is to be all three.

The text to me has demonstrated that Arya stands between the two. Dareon was certainly imitative of her father's role, while others on her list at least seem motivated by vengeance on her part.

What is interesting to me is that the FM blind Arya. Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm Canadian - but isn't Lady Justice in America shown as blindfolded? The blinding of Arya could denote the FM wanting her to learn 'blind obedience' or it perhaps has a different shading - of learning justice not vengeance. Using the scales of Justice properly.

The FM do seem to want Arya to follow their orders blindly to a degrees but perhaps it's not just that. If she is to become a Valkyrie figure proper, and trusted with agency in that role, she cannot be allowed to act from personal vengeance like her mother nor as judge, jury and executioner without mercy (as we saw Eddard display in his first scene)like her father. But it is interesting that when Eddard does show Mercy - to Cersei and her children - it backfires on him badly.

So it is a particularly disinterested Mercy that Arya will need to need to demonstrate. And she already has when giving the Gift of Life. She threw that axe into the cage of murderers - an act of Mercy and justice in the circumstances. Nobody else did this. Regardless of whether Jaqen was already interested in her, this act meant something to hI'm, revealed to him what she really was.

But the Hound was different; it was more personalpersonal but she strangely did not make a personal decision She did not kill the Hound out of vengeance nor let him live out of vengeance. She did not kill the hound out of mercy or let him live out of mercy. She was all justice - she calculated what he deserved and decided to leave him to Fate. This was not her decision to make; the scale was balanced.

 

Thank you for putting Arya's role in respect of justice and vengeance in its proper perspective. This is what I mean when I say she has a good sense of justice, but at the same time, is carrying out a personal vendetta against people she (rightly) feels deserve it. As you say, she stands between the two. And as I pointed out in my post, her training in the HoBaW serves to help her come to a balanced decision:

 

 

In the HoBaW, Arya's training focuses on becoming No One. This also means ridding herself of the kind of emotions that influence judgement and one's own decsion to kill or not to kill. That's not up to her, it's up to the many faced god. In fact, assassins are barred from killing people they know. Arya does not understand this concept. She admits to that herself: 

 

 

 

Besides being a Valkyre, I think Arya also has additional roles to play which I illustrate in this part of an essay on the concept of 'weaving destiny'. She is also walking the 'Patternmaker's Maze' which leads to 'wisdom'. In her role as a fully fledged Valkyre, she will have attained the wisdom to make balanced judgements about who to pick. Walking a labyrinth also includes the idea of negotiating it to eventually enter a world of shadow, the land of the ancestors or the dead. There are a lot of indications that Arya has mastered at least part of the maze. She's confronted with many tunnel and underground systems throughout the books and also masters the tunnels in the HoBaW, even though she is blind. She actually enters a chamber of the dead, where the faces hang and by donning the mask, even communes with the dead. She experiences the fear and pain of the face's owner and even sees the attacker. We've read often enough that much has been lost to memory over the centuries. It makes me wonder if she will one day wear a face that will impart forgotten but important memories regarding the events to come, stuff that will be important in terms of making choices and taking action, perhaps. 

[LmL]

Great thread sweetsunray and crew... Just found this one. :)

[sweetsunray]

Evolett, I loved your essay! Especially the mazewalker part. And yes, I've always taken the "no one" reference in relation to the eightfold path. It's not as much a loss of identity as it is letting go of ego, to make place for the higher self that is more intuitive, perceptive, and impersonal. The seats of the higher self are the heart (love as well as divine wrath), the throat (growth, communication and healing), third eye (objective and impersonal perception) and the crown (faith). The ego's throne are the solar, but fed by desire and fantasy in the tummy and down to earth struggle at the root. I'm using chakra symbolism here.

 

In relation to justice and "choosig of the slain", wrong and right as seen and experienced by the higher self is entirely different as seen by the ego. There are several type of angers, and many of them are related to ego. The heart is often seen as the symbolical seat of love alone, but this is not so. Indignation comes from the heart as well, and it can lead to a purging anger. It's this type of anger that is featured in the old testament, when yawheh is so wroth he wishes to purge the earth. To us modern humanists the divine revenge/purge/wroth is a wrong - we live in a justice mindset where it is preferred a wrong man walk free than an innocent taken captive. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorra makes us shudder, for we are certain many people, childen and babies would have been killed who had done no or only a bit of wrong. The same view holds true for the tale of the flood. But in mythology the gods have that purging right.

 

Lady Stoneheart becomes such a divine purger. From our modern POV, her role is shallow, just shallow revenge, destructive, and as unjust as those she hangs. For her there is no grey anymore. But once you take in consideration she's the "gods' wrath" descending on those who broke guest right, she exactly fits the mythological wroth purification, and though it does not make her a richer character, at least she becomes a "fitting" character.

 

Back to the maze and Arya. When Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie escape from Harrenhal she has a map. They ride a long time, through the night, grey day with no sun and mists. Mists too can turn an otherwise normal world into a type of maze, because you can't see far ahead or far behind you. It makes you feel isolated and otherworldly. Then there is a scene where they stumble upon a stream and Hot Pie believes it must be the Trident already. She takes out the map and reasons that it can't be so and estimates which feeder stream it might possibly be. Gendry is able to see the opportunity in the stream as a direct route to the Trident if they were to follow it. But he also realizes that if they are wrong and it's the other river then it would lead them right back to HH. It's as if they have a map of a maze, find themselves at some crossing section, but they can't be sure whether that actual path of the maze is the one they think it is on the map. If they're right it leads to freedom. If they're wrong it leads to death. Gendry completely freezes over this, muttering "we need to know which river this is." But they can't. There's no sign at the actual river that spells its name. Hot Pie and Gendry are mentally inequipped to make a choice. Arya instead says, "Well, we don't know, but I do know we need to go further north, so we're crossing the river and go straight forward north."

 

Those mists also serve symbolically to signal us that Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie are entering an otherworld, an underworld, a world where the dead dwell. And the same symbolism returns in the Mercy chapter.  

[sweetsunray]

Great thread sweetsunray and crew... Just found this one. :)

 

:thumbsup: I love how we've been able to discuss the impact and possible purpose of the arc, even discussing revenge and justice, without getting mired in the more usual moralistic discussions of Arya's arc.

[LmL]

 

:thumbsup: I love how we've been able to discuss the impact and possible purpose of the arc, even discussing revenge and justice, without getting mired in the more usual moralistic discussions of Arya's arc.

 

 

Yes, they are simply different layers of the story. When we consider rya the character, the person, we look at morality and emotion, personal justification, etc.  But when we consider the characters as archetypes, its the symbolism that becomes important, which is kind of detached from the morality of the story. 

For example, if a character needs to be associated with killing his wife to fit the Azor Ahai / solar king archetype, it's enough to imply it in order to create the metaphorical connection. It might be a jest about idling the queen instead of actually murdering her - for symbolism's sake, they can be the same thing. When we are looking to analyze whether someone fits a particular archetype, whether an in-world ASOIAF archetype of a universal mythological one, we have to look for the symbolism and step away from the character's own moral dilemmas for just a minute. They are simply separate conversations... That doesn't mean they can't have anything to do with one another on occasion - they do overlap sometimes - but you have to see that as two separate things overlapping to be able to sort it out. 

I hope that wasn't too abstract. :)

[Evolett]

@ sweetsunray

Glad you like it! I think GRRM has drawn heavily on Far Eastern philosophy, including the concept of  universal energy, yin and yang and of course chakras. In my essay on warging, I show how bonding with a familiar animal and opening the third eye works in terms of these concepts and there is much more that can be explained by drawing on that. The door of the HoBaW, for instance, is a version of the yin-yang symbol and supports the idea that she is receiving tuition along the lines of Buddihst / Taoist doctrine. 

 

Good catch on the mists. Arya does have an excellent sense of direction. She backs up her feeling for a place or route by observing her surroundings as well. I recall a passage where she's convinced they are journeying the wrong way because she notices the moss on the trees is in the 'wrong' place. 

 

Have you thought about the quotes I listed in my first reply as possible support for the first FM being a woman? I think they are a good indication, especially in terms of mercy and the fact that Arya takes on the name Mercy. 

[LmL]

 

GoHH dreams - she has red eyes...Either she has the greensight (red eyes), like Jojen, or she actually may even be a greenseer. She's unusally old, also hair to the ground. People with the greensight already can tap into visions, without the weirnet. It's different from Jaime's dream when he sleeps on the weirwood stump. Jaime doesn't have the greensight. Hollow Hill is full of caves and weirwood roots. Where do these caves lead to? "There must be a weirwood grove above the roots". Maybe she has some place to "dream" like BR and the singers. Not all greenseers are necessarily tree-fied.

 

Also, don't overlook the Gods Eye. Odin had a seat from which he could see all the realms. There's North, which is a rather modern concept to associate with "high up", but there's also an island with numerous hearttrees where a pact was made between men and CotF, that manages to ward off wanderers from reaching it, in the middle of the lake that is called "Gods Eye".

 

But again while certainly the Northern one serves as the place that is the "well of knowledge", and the "Gods Eye" imo is the most likely place to be a reference to Odin's heavenly seat, Hollow Hill and the Riverlands fit mythological references for an underworld (not of burrows and fairies in hills) like a Hades or Hel where you can speak physically with the revived dead.

 

I wanted to respond to this in the affirmative - there is a surprising amount of evidence for this idea. Bran has his second wave of visions through the heart tree after he is off his throne, in his chamber staring at a flame as he falls asleep. He still sees throughout the tree's eyes. Consider that if Bran had legs that worked, he could be a walking, talking greenseer with skinchanging abilities AND weirnet access.... this is a scary thought, actually. The power of such men - they would be kings, surely.

 

And lo and behold, we see that the Marsh Kings were chosen specifically for their greensight, expressed by green or red eyes. Greenseer kings, everyone. The Starks are obvisouly Skinchanger Kings - Warg Kings - but the original Starks may have been greenseer kings too, I suspect.

Other possible greenseer kings include Garth Gardener, who sat upon a living tree throne and wore a crown of vines and flowers, as well as the Grey King, once you realize that nagga's bones are all weirwood (petrified weirwood to be exact).  His throne of Nagga's fangs (jaws) was a weirwood throne, his crown of nagga's teeth a weirwood crown (the model for later driftwood crowns). The famous Ironborn priest Galen Whitestaff who ended the civil war and infighting of Ironborn, established the Kingsmoot and the driftwood crown, had a staff of weirwood. Even though modern Ironborn hate the "demon trees," I believe there are signs of an older weirwood-worshipping culture there. 

 

Other odds and ends include the random weirwood throne in the Eyrie - not sure when they got that, but why would they even think to make one? What were the carvers of that throne remembering? Did they think a weirwood throne somehow converted kingly or divine authority? There are there clues but that's enough for now. Suffice it to say, when we are told that greenseers called down the Hammer of the Waters, I'm thinking about these human greenseer kings, not cotf. 

 

My new sea dragon essay (the Language of Leviathan) goes into a lot of this subject matter.

 

P.P.S. Evolett's weaving essay if freakin fantastic if anyone hasn't read it.   :thumbsup:

[sweetsunray]

@ sweetsunray

Glad you like it! I think GRRM has drawn heavily on Far Eastern philosophy, including the concept of  universal energy, yin and yang and of course chakras. In my essay on warging, I show how bonding with a familiar animal and opening the third eye works in terms of these concepts and there is much more that can be explained by drawing on that. The door of the HoBaW, for instance, is a version of the yin-yang symbol and supports the idea that she is receiving tuition along the lines of Buddihst / Taoist doctrine. 

 

Good catch on the mists. Arya does have an excellent sense of direction. She backs up her feeling for a place or route by observing her surroundings as well. I recall a passage where she's convinced they are journeying the wrong way because she notices the moss on the trees is in the 'wrong' place. 

 

Have you thought about the quotes I listed in my first reply as possible support for the first FM being a woman? I think they are a good indication, especially in terms of mercy and the fact that Arya takes on the name Mercy. 

 

I loved them. Do you want me to incorporate them in the OP with a thank you for bringing them up?

[sweetsunray]

 

I wanted to respond to this in the affirmative - there is a surprising amount of evidence for this idea. Bran has his second wave of visions through the heart tree after he is off his throne, in his chamber staring at a flame as he falls asleep. He still sees throughout the tree's eyes. Consider that if Bran had legs that worked, he could be a walking, talking greenseer with skinchanging abilities AND weirnet access.... this is a scary thought, actually. The power of such men - they would be kings, surely.

 

And lo and behold, we see that the Marsh Kings were chosen specifically for their greensight, expressed by green or red eyes. Greenseer kings, everyone. The Starks are obvisouly Skinchanger Kings - Warg Kings - but the original Starks may have been greenseer kings too, I suspect.

Other possible greenseer kings include Garth Gardener, who sat upon a living tree throne and wore a crown of vines and flowers, as well as the Grey King, once you realize that nagga's bones are all weirwood (petrified weirwood to be exact).  His throne of Nagga's fangs (jaws) was a weirwood throne, his crown of nagga's teeth a weirwood crown (the model for later driftwood crowns). The famous Ironborn priest Galen Whitestaff who ended the civil war and infighting of Ironborn, established the Kingsmoot and the driftwood crown, had a staff of weirwood. Even though modern Ironborn hate the "demon trees," I believe there are signs of an older weirwood-worshipping culture there. 

 

Other odds and ends include the random weirwood throne in the Eyrie - not sure when they got that, but why would they even think to make one? What were the carvers of that throne remembering? Did they think a weirwood throne somehow converted kingly or divine authority? There are there clues but that's enough for now. Suffice it to say, when we are told that greenseers called down the Hammer of the Waters, I'm thinking about these human greenseer kings, not cotf. 

 

My new sea dragon essay (the Language of Leviathan) goes into a lot of this subject matter.

 

P.P.S. Evolett's weaving essay if freakin fantastic if anyone hasn't read it.   :thumbsup:

 

That's what I'm getting at - Bran still has visions, looking into flames (of all things) while he's not on his weirwood throne. There is also that indication where Mel sees BR and Bran looking back at her, and realizing they see her, and then Bran (as wolf) howls. That's why I think Thoros seeing his stuff in the flames in the RL and his Last Kiss resurrection, though fire magic, does not have to be restricted to R'hllor alone.

 

Never thought of those weirwood thrones in relating to greenseer kings, but you're right! Yes, such kings would be scary. The Iron Throne would seem like an abomination to them.

[Darkstream]

I loved them. Do you want me to incorporate them in the OP with a thank you for bringing them up?

If your going to be editing the op, I would like to remind you of everyone's suggestion to remove the "crackpot" from your title.

[sweetsunray]

If your going to be editing the op, I would like to remind you of everyone's suggestion to remove the "crackpot" from your title.

 

Well, I'll do that now on account of popular demand ;)

[Meera of Tarth]

 

 

Besides being a Valkyre, I think Arya also has additional roles to play which I illustrate in this part of an essay on the concept of 'weaving destiny'. She is also walking the 'Patternmaker's Maze' which leads to 'wisdom'. In her role as a fully fledged Valkyre, she will have attained the wisdom to make balanced judgements about who to pick. Walking a labyrinth also includes the idea of negotiating it to eventually enter a world of shadow, the land of the ancestors or the dead. There are a lot of indications that Arya has mastered at least part of the maze. She's confronted with many tunnel and underground systems throughout the books and also masters the tunnels in the HoBaW, even though she is blind. She actually enters a chamber of the dead, where the faces hang and by donning the mask, even communes with the dead. She experiences the fear and pain of the face's owner and even sees the attacker. We've read often enough that much has been lost to memory over the centuries. It makes me wonder if she will one day wear a face that will impart forgotten but important memories regarding the events to come, stuff that will be important in terms of making choices and taking action, perhaps. 

I'll read it today! :)

 

 

 

That's what I'm getting at - Bran still has visions, looking into flames (of all things) while he's not on his weirwood throne. There is also that indication where Mel sees BR and Bran looking back at her, and realizing they see her, and then Bran (as wolf) howls. That's why I think Thoros seeing his stuff in the flames in the RL and his Last Kiss resurrection, though fire magic, does not have to be restricted to R'hllor alone.

 

Never thought of those weirwood thrones in relating to greenseer kings, but you're right! Yes, such kings would be scary. The Iron Throne would seem like an abomination to them.

Really? I didn't notice that! Where is this? I want to read it....

 

 

 

@everyone: This thread is amazing