R+L=J v.153

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Yeah, I have always kind of thought tPtwP was more Targaryen-centric, rather that all-encompassing. Perhaps the Targaryens foresaw the loss and eventual fall from power and were looking for that prince who would bring back the dragons to help them keep their dominance.

 

That Jon embodies the bloodlines of two magical entities just means THAT is how prophesy is fulfilled. He can perhaps control the dragons to help in the fight against the Others even if that is not why any Targaryen might have been hoping to use them.

Though I'm still skeptical about how dragons can do anything in full-on winter which was not the case when Aegon took the North.

 

(Try starting a car in -15 degree weather which then you have to let it set for awhile to warm up which is why there are no alligators in North Dakota).

 

Reptiles are fully dependent on warmth to power thier bodies otherwise they become immobile.

 

Reptiles are cold blooded and that's why they need warmth. Dragons are warm blooded though.

 

 

Dragons are fire made flesh

 

The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

 

So they wouldn't need heat anymore than you or I do. I'm sure they likely like heat more than the cold, but I suspect they'd be just like Melisandre who's perfectly fine in winter.

[corbon]

Why not?
He can take a couple of years to depose his dad. Then he is king regent and he can try to kill or capture Robert and make lyanna a widow, then marry her and have a child. Only a few years later.
This is indeed a better way to do. At lease the would not risk losing his throne.

 
Really?
What makes you think killing or capturing Robert would have been a good idea even as king regent, just because he wanted Robert's wife? You think thats going to go down well with anyone? What will that contribute to political stability? Murdering his cousin just to steal his cousin's wife... :eek:
Really, what we think happened should not have caused a war and risked his crown and did not cause the war and risk his crown/throne. It was the spark yes, but it was Brandon's idiotic and pointless treason aimed at a Rhaegar who wasn't even present (possibly deliberately to avoid just such a thing) that set up the deaths of Brandon and Rickard and then the demand for Ned's and Robert's heads that started the war and risked his crown.
You can't possibly plan for any or all idiotic and pointless behaviour from others.
 

Ned reminds Robert that he was with her when she died when Robert complains about Lyanna being buried in Winterfell. That means he had already told Robert at least some version of her death for Robert to think that the crypts isn't enough for her.

Yeah. She died of a fever. Not where, when and that the 3KG were there too.
 

As to no one mentioning their ends, we have Ned's own soldiers saying he killed Arthur in single combat, Yandel saying Ned killed Arthur, Oswell, and Gerold, and we have Jaime reflecting on all his KG brothers being dead and Hightower being loyal to the end. There's no reason to assume that people don't know that happened to them.

Could you try actually addressing the points that have been made instead of just repeating stuff that has already been countered?
 
There is reason to expect people don't know what happened to them and I've already repeatedly pointed it out, which you continue to ignore. Its a very small step, a tiny step, between knowing the KG were with Lyanna and Ned killed them and suspicion about Ned's sudden bastard. Yet no one makes that connection and there are some very clever and very sneaky and very suspicious people around.
 
Ned's soldiers aren't mentioning 'the end of the 3 KG'. They are making up a story about the Lord they idolised based on Ned returning Dawn to Starfall. The only actual sources for 'the end of the (3) KG' are the people who left ToJ alive - Ned (a secret keeper, and with very good reason not to say anything), HR (Ned's loyal (and silent) companion who has virtually never been seen since) and possibly Wylla-the-wetnurse and/or any other small support staff that were at ToJ (who would have been loyalists and therefore also have extremely good reason not to talk).
 
I've explained that I think Yandel's information is a rare continuity mistake on the part of the authors
 
Jaime is discussed below.
 

Why would Jaime think some generalized concept? The app makes it clear the 3 KG were ordered to guard Lyanna. If Jaime knew they'd died doing so he's thing they'd been loyal to the end, no explanation needed.

 

But an explanation, a very big explanation, is needed why Jaime, and especially others who have access to the same data he must have access to, isn't suspicious about Ned's bastard if he knows that the 3KG died defending Lyanna at the same time Ned's bastard appeared.

On the other hand, simplify things. Jaime doesn't know exactly how they died but knows their character well and knows that for them not to turn up somewhere they must be dead. Its not even a question, just a 'known fact' - confirmed in Dayne's case by the loss of Dawn to Ned. And he knows Hightower well, that he was always loyal, and thus just assumes Hightower would have been loyal to the end - that was his character always.
Now you don't need any 'explanations'.
 

If Dustin died after pretty much all of the main fighting died, , and Arthur Dayne died in this period, then he has to have died doing something rather important. There's no reason to have separated the events and said that Ned went to Dorne for multiple reasons, and then never conquered Dorne (as Jon Arryn did peacefully and as GRRM said that no rebel armies ever were in Dorne)

 
Your first statement is a logical fallacy. People don't die only while doing important things. However, it is a fairly reasonable supposition that he died in the same fight as Arthur Dayne did. But that does not require the presence of the other two KG (they are not even in the picture as far as anyone knows) and it does not require that it be anything to do with Lyanna.

Its not 'separating events' - they were never logically joined in the first place. There are not 'multiple reasons for going to Dorne' (well, maybe two). There is not any attempt to 'conquer' Dorne.
There is one reason Ned disappears, and thats a private journey, not as Robert's rep, not with troops just with friends, to find his missing sister (and a second, to pick up his bastard, perhaps, if he knew). He disappears from Storms End and reappears some weeks or months later at Starfall. Along the way, he finds his dead or dying sister, acquires Dawn (probably through killing Arthur Dayne), loses several of his companions and picks up his bastard. There is nothing to suggest or make anyone assume that those three things happened all at once as one event except that Arthur Dayne's status as a warrior rather suggests losing companions and killing Arthur might be connected. But lots of things happen at different times as you travel especially such apparently disparate things as killing Legends, finding the bones of lost relatives and acquiring new bastards.
 

Actually, it is mentioned in AGoT that Ned Stark supposedly slew Arthur Dayne in single combat. Yandel isn't giving us special information there, just retelling what everybody or at least many people know.

 

:bang:  People think that because Ned took Dawn back to Starfall, not because they actually know anything.
There are very limited sources available for the real information of what happened at ToJ to get out, and those sources have very very good reasons to keep silent.
And, every character who knows this dubiously sourced information but has not been suspicious of Ned's bastard must be as thick as pig shit, which many of them demonstrably are not.
 

It makes no sense that Ned Stark could actually keep the deaths of the KGs a secret, especially not since people at court should have known where the hell they were and whom they had been commanded to protect. Unless one believes Rhaegar had the authority to take three KGs from his father on a secret mission and nobody asked him about that (or concluded what was going on, since, you know, Lyanna didn't come with him back to KL).

 

Its difficult to have decent conversation when such simple things are presented so falsely with a straight face.

Its trivially easy for Ned to keep the deaths of the 3KG a secret and it makes no sense that he would not. All he has to do is not say anything about them.

No one at court 'should have known' where they were. Or what they were doing.
How could they? Rhaegar isn't going to be telling them - that would hand Lyanna on a plate to Aerys as soon as his back is turned.
Dayne and Whent were detached with Rhaegar long ago. Rhaegar turns up without them, back in favour and in charge by Aerys' choice, there isn't anyone at court to question Rhaegar on their whereabouts and duties. Even Aerys has no need to push (and if he does Rhaegar can easily lie or give an evasive answer) as he is the one who decided Rhaegar needed to be in charge and he still has 4 KG around (and might even be happy to see Rhaegar's closest companions absent).
Hightower was detached by Aerys to find Rhaegar and somehow did so. So his absence and duties are covered the same way as Whent's and Dayne's are.
 

As I've said above, Ned most likely actually told the truth about Lyanna and the knights as far as he could, just tweaking the details into Lyanna dying in childbirth delivering a stillborn daughter which was then cremated at the tower by the knights. By keeping his own bastard away from court and not mentioning him and his mother more often than he had to (there must have been a good official story for Robert and other friends of Ned who would have been surprised about him cheating on Cat, and also interested in the looks and character of the woman who 'made Ned Stark forget his marriage vow').

 
But that still utterly fails the sniff test in that no one is suspicious of the bastard Ned turned up with.
Its inconceivable that all those suspicious, devious, sneaky, sly, clever courtiers (adopting a northern view for the moment) at court didn't have the slightest hint that there was something fishy with Ned's bastard, if your claim is true that he told them all about the KG protecting Lyanna and even that she was pregnant and just lied about the stillborn daughter.

 

Much much much easier is just not to mention the KG, not to mention anything about Lyanna's location or pregnancy, just to tell Robert that he found her but she died of a fever in his arms.

Vastly simpler, vastly safer, and far far fewer issues.
 

Telling people that Lyanna died in giving birth to a stillborn child while bringing Jon would be stupid.

 
Yeah.
Just as stupid as the people who can't connect up the presences of the KG with Lyanna, and her now-reported pregnancy, to the sudden appearance of a Stark bastard...
 

LV

There is also the very dated vernacular that is used in the WB when it describes Rhaegars "falling upon Lyanna," which suggests it was a violent encounter.

 
Err, ummm, Yandel writing expressly for Robert?
I don't really think that anything can be seriously taken as accurately 'suggested' by Yandel in this sort of very-personal-to-the-king context.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Sorry corbon but handwaving away truths you don't like doesn't mean they don't exist in story. There are numerous people in story who come from vastly different regions of the country who all know that the 3 KG are dead, there are stories from vastly different parts of the kingdom that Ned killed Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower and it made it's way into an official history book that he did such a thing, people know that Ned went to Dorne and some of his men died there as well as Lyanna but that Ned brought her bones home despite no rebel army or battles ever being fought in Dorne, Ned has told people that he was there when Lyanna died, Ned has told people that Lyanna's willfullness was a contributing factor in her death, Ned showed up at Starfall with Arthur's sword, Ashara supposedly committed suicide partly because of her brother's death by her lover's hand and partly because Ned supposedly stole her child, Ned tells his 7 year old son he fought Arthur Dayne and that he was the finest knight he ever knew, etc. There's a huge pile of evidence that the event is known and Ned didn't cover it up but only covered up that he found Jon in the TOJ.

 

The idea that there is a massive conspiracy where Ned mentioned absolutely nothing about the 3 KG and Lyanna is completely unsupported beyond your idea that people couldn't possibly have heard all of this and figured out that Jon isn't Ned's. But it's in the text that this is all still there and people know all these things and yet people don't seem to have figured it out. I find Lord Varys' explanation that Ned came up with a story that satisfies how so many people know so much without them realizing that it makes more sense for Jon to have been Lyanna's, than that all of the above is in story but Ned said absolutely nothing to anybody about any KG and Lyanna. He's definitely hiding that Jon is Lyanna's son, but I see no support for the idea that he's at all hiding that he fought 3 KG who were guarding his sister.

[Lord Varys]

corbon,

 

you make a lot of problematic assumptions there. We don't actually know whether Oswell and Arthur were actually assigned to Rhaegar. That is an assumption. It may be or may be not the case.

 

Aerys' behavior suggests that he used his KG more for personal use than assigning knights permanently to members of his family as sworn shields (e.g. various KGs are protecting Rhaella and Viserys in the king's absence). We have reason to assume that Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend, and that Oswell was on his side/in his camp in regards to the Harrenhal plan. That suggests that both men were concerned with the king's growing madness and actually unwilling to see him remain in power and/or not keen on following his mad commands. Else they would not have been willing to help Rhaegar do something about that.

 

But that's not the issue. Just imagine the following conversation:

 

Eddard Stark: Your Grace, I've found Lyanna. She died of a fever.

 

Robert: Talk to me, man! Where was she then? What caused the fever? Who was with her? How did you find her?

 

Ned: ...

 

Robert: Never mind. I don't really care what has happened, she was just the love of my life. But what has happened to your buddies. I see only Howland Reed here with you, where are the others?

 

Ned: They died.

 

Robert: Oh, okay, who did kill them? And how did you survive? You and that bog devil can barely hold a sword. *laughs*

 

Ned: ...

 

and

 

Robert: We hear you brought the sword Dawn back to Starfall. I take it that Rhaegar dispatched the three missing Kingsguard (Hightower, Dayne, and Whent) to guard the place where Rhaegar kept Lyanna, right?

 

Ned: Well, actually, no, I found the sword lying out there in wasteland and thought I should return it to Starfall. You know, doing the right thing and all that.

 

Robert: You didn't encounter the three missing KG? Strange. Well, do you know whether they are dead? I can't name new Kingsguard without knowing for a certainty that they are dead. Tradition and all, you know.

 

Ned: They ... may be dead .. I guess, but I wouldn't know anything about that, truly.

 

Robert: ...

 

The only reason why three Kingsguard - two of them close to Rhaegar - wouldn't be were Ned was expecting them (as per the dream) is if they were commanded to guard Lyanna wherever she was. By that time everyone knew they weren't with Rhaegar, not with Aerys, not with Elia, and not with Rhaella/Viserys. Nor were they with Mace Tyrell, where no one - not even Ned - would actually have looked for them.

 

If Ned Stark had found Lyanna 'somewhere in the south', and if Ned Stark thereafter delivered Dawn to Starfall, then you don't need to be a rocket scientist to deduce what the mission of the three missing Kingsguard was, nor to conclude where the hell Ned Stark stumbled upon Dawn. If Ned had kept Dawn in secret and never gone to Starfall he may have been able to keep the fact a secret that the Kingsguard were with Lyanna.

But that doesn't settle the problem of the three missing Kingsguard. Robert can only name new Kingsguard if they are confirmed to be dead, and if Ned never revealed that to him than he would begin to investigate their whereabouts on his own since Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, or Oswell Whent riding at the side of Viserys III Targaryen could actually cause many problems for him and his claim to the throne.

 

The fact that Robert eventually named new KG as well as the fact that Jaime actually knows or believes Gerold Hightower is dead and stayed true until the end suggests that it is known that he is dead. How could anyone know that if Ned didn't tell them?

 

We don't even know from whom Rhaegar was intending to protect Lyanna when he left her in the care of the three KG. The rebels, his father, or both? The KG would most certainly protect her from the former, but if Hightower was still Aerys' man, then it would be stupid to leave him there to have him protect Lyanna from his king - thus Rhaegar was either sure that Gerold was on his side, or didn't actually see his father as a threat to Lyanna's life.

 

There is also no reason why Rhaegar shouldn't have told where he had been, what he had done, and what was going on since it is rather unlikely that Aerys would have suffered him in charge if there were any open questions. After all, the man was mad and paranoid. Perhaps Rhaegar had been conspiring with the rebels all this time... If Hightower could find Rhaegar, then any other agents or soldiers Aerys might send out behind Rhaegar's back would be able to find Lyanna, too. Which means that keeping quiet about Lyanna wouldn't help keeping her location a secret.

 

My take on that is that it may actually have been Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna that forced them to disappear - if, say, Aerys considered this as proof for Rhaegar conspiring with Lord Rickard and others against him, and subsequently calling for Rhaegar's head as well as those of the other 'traitors'. That would explain why Aerys was so keen on executing Brandon and Rickard, and subsequently went as far as calling for Robert and Ned's heads as well. He eventually would have recovered from that error upon realizing/learning that Robert and his allies were actually fighting as much against Rhaegar as they were are fighting against him.

 

As to my theory about Ned hiding the truth:

 

Most important for that would have been for Ned to only casually, and perhaps much later, reveal the truth about his bastard son. If this topic had nothing to do with Lyanna's fate then at least Robert may not have connected the dots. Or he did, but choose to not investigate any further. One should keep in mind that nobody would have had much or anything to gain from investigating this mystery. Varys may have realized the truth at once, in spite of Ned's attempts to hide stuff, as might have Doran Martell (who would have had spies and informers at Starfall, I'm sure of that), but neither of them would have done anything to endanger the life of the child. Later on Stannis doesn't even dare to talk to Robert about Cersei's children fearing that his brother wouldn't believe him. Would Robert ever believe a story that Ned was conspiring against him by bringing up Rhaegar's son as his own bastard at Winterfell? Even if he did believe that story, could he dare antagonize Ned over this, and would he be actually afraid that a bastard looking like Eddard Stark could ever become a threat to his own dynasty? Would any Targaryen loyalist rise in the name of that boy if the honorable Ned Stark publicly swore that this boy was his seed? And wouldn't there have been a perfectly easy way to resolve all of that by handing Jon over the to NW if the truth came out?

 

I think people are blinding themselves if they insist that the only possible take on this is that this whole had to have been a 'complete secret' or else there would have been war and Robert would have cried for Ned's head.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Exactly. The Song is much more than one man. Or woman.

 

GRRM is on record saying that he's known for titles with multiple meanings, in response to a question about the title of this series.

 

Yes, I have been through this so many times it is getting a little tiresome. There is no reasonable argument that the series title has only one meaning -- it obviously has multiple meanings. On the surface, GRRM has stated that this period of time in Westeros history will be known at the Song of Ice and Fire. Presumably, that reference ultimately will be about the war involving the Others and Dragon -- but we don't know this for 100% certainty (although it seems like a pretty good supposition at this point). But the beauty of the title is that it has multiple meanings -- including, for example, the balance between opposing forces that are needed in the world. There are other symbolic meanings that seem likely that people have mentioned in the past, but I cannot remember them all. Suffice it to say, the title is brilliant in part because it has so many meanings in the context of this story.

 

But as to Jon being one of the meanings, it seems almost impossible to deny. Let's go through the evidence. The words "Song of Ice and Fire" are in the books to the point once and only once (well, technically three times, but the last two are really just Dany remembering the first one). In the HotU vision of Rhaegar, he states that TPTWP has a song -- the Song of Ice and Fire. So the title is connected not just to this period in Westeros history -- but to the promised prince specifically. We also know from WOIAF that an agreement to marry a Targ to a Stark during DoD 1.0 was called the Pact of Ice and Fire. So the author is telling the readers that a union of Stark and Targ would be viewed as a combination of Ice and Fire. Most readers understand Lyanna's statement to Ned to "promise me" relates to keeping Jon safe. The OP and 153 versions of this thread set forth why most people think Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. So given all of this evidence, Jon seems pretty clearly to be the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. I have probably written some variation on that sentence dozens of times on the boards. I am surprised that this notion is still a matter of debate (at least among the great majority who accept RLJ as more or less presumed to be true).

 

Now, does this conclusion mean that Jon is the one and only main character or hero of the story? No, of course not. Just because one of the meaning of the title is a clever reference to Jon only means that Jon is critical to the story and that the story is about him as much or more than other characters (and that any notion that Jon is permanently dead at this point in the story cannot be the case). But clearly he cannot win the war alone and others, such as Dany, Tyrion and Bran -- and probably Arya and maybe Sansa and most likely others as well -- will be instrumental in winning the war. I think the original outline (not necessarily applicable to the story as eventually written, but some insight into GRRM's original plan) referred to Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran and Arya as the main five (personally, I think that when GRRM decided not to have Sansa turn against her family, as she did in the original outline, she became the sixth member of the main six, but not really relevant to this discussion).

 

But no one else fits the title as clearly -- and more to the point -- Jon (assuming RLJ) fits the title too closely to be a coincidence. It must be one of the intended meanings. And any lingering doubt should have been extinguished when the Pact of Ice of Fire was mentioned in WOIAF. I just don't get the argument that Jon is not one of the meanings of Song of Ice and Fire.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I can come up with many of meanings without focusing on Jon Snow as 'the Song of Ice and Fire':

 

- the war between humanity (using dragons) and the Others

 

- the fact that the main protagonists are from Houses Stark and Targaryen, and the main plots are connected to those, especially if you count both Tyrion and Jon Snow among 'the Targaryens'

 

- the general theme of summer and winter, fire and ice, warmth and cold, which is all mentioned rather often

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

 

Did you actually read what I wrote? I wrote that the beauty of the title is that it has many meanings. I gave a couple. You gave more. You are probably correct on some or all of them. Nothing in what I wrote suggests otherwise.

 

The question is not whether it has many meanings -- it does. The question is not whether the "surface" meaning is the tale of this period of time in Westeros history being known as A Song of Ice and Fire -- it is. The issue is whether there can be any doubt that one of the intended meaning is Jon as A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. I don't think the existence of alternative meanings in any way, shape or form argues against this additional meaning. What is the argument that one of the meanings is not Jon as the union of L&R?

[Lord Varys]

I wanted to help you there. Not everything I say is directed against you ;-).

 

My problem with the Jon focus is mainly that I don't think he is important enough for the overall story to warrant to see him at the core of everything.

 

And strictly speaking, George should better add at least 4-5 additional books or else 'A Song of Ice and Fire' will turn out to be a rather bad overall title since we are still in the middle of the game or thrones, and the Others plot is still a minor subplot in the background only a fraction of the main character knows or cares about. If the title of the whole series only refers to the last 1-2 books it will be not really fit all that well.

[UnmaskedLurker]

So why did GRRM give the clue about the Pact of Ice and Fire?

 

I suspect the main reason you resist my conclusion is that you have become convinced that Dany is TPTWP. And if my conclusion is correct, then Jon is TPTWP. But if I am correct that Jon is TPTWP, then I think my conclusion regarding the title must also be correct. If you are correct that Jon is not TPTWP, then GRRM has a lot of explaining to do as to why he made it seem that Jon is one of the meanings of the title if he really is not. GRRM certainly gave a lot of clues in that direction for it to be just a head fake.

[Lord Varys]

The Pact of Ice and Fire could be a clue to the title of the series, but I don't necessarily see that as a hint that a Stark-Targaryen union would be something 'important' or 'necessary'.

 

I'm not necessarily saying Dany is the promised princess, I'm saying she is the best candidate if you go with only one savior. My guess actually is that there is no meaningful difference between the three dragon heads and the promised prince. I think the twist coming in regards to the prophecy is that there will be three saviors, not one. Not just one special guy and two companions, but three saviors on the same 'metaphysical level'. In that sense, the title could refer to Jon in that sense. But then, nothing suggests that Aegon 'having the Song of Ice and Fire' suggests that the prophecy extends to the savior somehow 'embodying' it, too. I'm not closing my eyes to the metaphorical meaning in Jon's case there, though. I just don't see that there could be more to it than that.

[MtnLion]

There are numerous people in story who come from vastly different regions of the country who all know that the 3 KG are dead

Since all of the seven from Aerys’ Kingsguard have been replaced, except Selmy, and since Kingsguar d servers for life, it is not surprising that all of Westeros knows that the last three, Arthur, Oswell, and Gerold are dead.

there are stories from vastly different parts of the kingdom that Ned killed Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower

How many stories? Care to shore that statement up a bit? As I recall there is only one story that suggests this, not saying it outright, that being Ned’s account to Bran of Arthur’s passing.

it made it's way into an official history book that he did such a thing, people know that Ned went to Dorne and some of his men died

Some of Ned’s men died fighting the Kingsguard, have any quotes for that? You are implying that this is common knowledge, yet I don’t recall anyone mentioning it. It may not even be in the White Book, though the screenplay had it there. Does anyone happen to mention the location in Dorne, since Dorne is a pretty big place? Are you referring to Ned’s dream? Who has Ned related his dream to, and do they believe it?

Dorne and some of his men died there as well as Lyanna

Oh my, who ties Lyanna to the three Kingsguard? I need a citation, badly!

Ned has told people that he was there when Lyanna died

I know that Ned told Robert that he was with Lyanna when she died. Who else are you counting as “people”?

Ned brought her bones home despite no rebel army or battles ever being fought in Dorne

I am not really sure what “rebel army or battles battles fought in Dorne” have to do with Lyanna. Do you have any citation to link this? As far as I know, Ned has never mentioned where Lyanna died, nor the date that he found her dying of a fever.

Ned has told people that he was there when Lyanna died

Ned has told Robert that he was with Lyanna when she died of a fever. Who else counts as people? Have any citations?

Ned has told people that Lyanna's willfullness was a contributing factor in her death

This is a general statement that has Ned relating his story to the world, when nothing of the sort happens in the books. Ned has said that Lyanna’s wolf-blood may have contributed to her demise, but only in private conversation with family members. This is not a public story that is projected to the world.

Ned showed up at Starfall with Arthur's sword

Returning Dawn to House Dayne logically involves going to Starfall with Dawn.

Ashara supposedly committed suicide partly because of her brother's death by her lover's hand

Do you have a citation for Ned being Ashara’s lover? And, we are not sure that Ned killed Arthur, or if Howland did the deed. But the reason for Ashara’s suicide is suggested by someone who is only guessing, and obviously gets some of his information third hand.

partly because Ned supposedly stole her child

This is not the first time that I have seen a forum member taking Cersei’s account seriously, but it really is no less funny than the first time!

Ned tells his 7 year old son he fought Arthur Dayne

He actually says that Arthur Dayne would have slain him except for Howland Reed somehow saving Ned.

was the finest knight he ever knew

Ned was asked if it were true that the Kingsguard are the best knights, and he tells Bran that they were a shining example to the world. Then Bran asks who is the greatest among them, and Ned tells him that Arthur was the finest knight that he had ever seen.

There's a huge pile of evidence that the event is known and Ned didn't cover it up but only covered up that he found Jon in the TOJ.

I don’t recall seeing any. I do recall that Ned only had these discussions with family members, not that they were ever open to the public. Ned never says where Lyanna died. Ned never tells anyone that there were three Kingsguard with her when she died. The reason for and location of the battle with the Kingsguard is never mentioned by Ned. We, the reader, only know because of Ned’s dream that it was at a tower in the Red Mountains of Dorne, and only by Ned’s memory that Lyanna was there. As far as we, the reader, know Ned never mentions this to anyone in story. Actually, we do not know that Jon was present at the tower of joy. We can only put Jon there because Ned places Lyanna there, in her bed of blood, and later with Daenerys’ vision, a blue rose at the Wall, which must be Jon. Ran has suggested that Jon may actually be in Starfall (I, personally, prefer Jon at that tower, because of the comport of the Kingsguard), to which there is no canon refute.

handwaving away truths you don't like doesn't mean they don't exist in story.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Since all of the seven from Aerys’ Kingsguard have been replaced, except Selmy, and since Kingsguar d servers for life, it is not surprising that all of Westeros knows that the last three, Arthur, Oswell, and Gerold are dead.

 

Or someone told them that they're dead. Which is a better explanation for how Varys, Arya, Darkstar, Jaime, Myrcella etc, all people of various backgrounds, know that the KG are dead. Rather than just everyone assuming they must have died for Robert to have made new KG. Robert was under no obligation to keep any of Aerys KG as we know that Jaime and Barristan both swore themselves to Robert. They weren't automatically his KG simply because he was king of Westoros now, they were still Aerys' until Robert took them on.

 

 

How many stories? Care to shore that statement up a bit? As I recall there is only one story that suggests this, not saying it outright, that being Ned’s account to Bran of Arthur’s passing.

 

It's right in Yandel's history book that Arthur died fighting beside his sworn brothers when he faced Ned.

 

 Some of Ned’s men died fighting the Kingsguard, have any quotes for that? You are implying that this is common knowledge, yet I don’t recall anyone mentioning it. It may not even be in the White Book, though the screenplay had it there. Does anyone happen to mention the location in Dorne, since Dorne is a pretty big place? Are you referring to Ned’s dream? Who has Ned related his dream to, and do they believe it?

 

Ned told Barbrey and Jory that Lord Dustin and Martyn Cassel were buried in the Red Mountains of Dorne.

 

And Ned mentions that "it was said" that Rhaegar had named that tower the tower of joy which means that there were people who knew the location

 

 Oh my, who ties Lyanna to the three Kingsguard? I need a citation, badly!

 

Nobody indirectly. But as Lord Varys pointed out, if the KG were nowhere where they were supposed to be, then the last remaining option is that they were with Lyanna as Lyanna was still missing.

 

 

I know that Ned told Robert that he was with Lyanna when she died. Who else are you counting as “people”?

 

If Ned told Robert why wouldn't he have told anybody else? And seeing as Robert was king by the time that Ned would have told him, Robert's life of privacy was gone. He already had Barristan and Jaime as KG back then so we know that he was already being watched night and day. Which IMO fits with why Jaime knows that Arthur, Oswell, and Gerold are all dead and that Gerold died being loyal to the end - because either Ned told the court in general, or Jaime was guarding Robert when Ned told Robert about Lyanna's death.

 

 

I am not really sure what “rebel army or battles battles fought in Dorne” have to do with Lyanna. Do you have any citation to link this? As far as I know, Ned has never mentioned where Lyanna died, nor the date that he found her dying of a fever.

 

Ned told Barbrey and Jory that Dustin and Martyn died fighting in the Red Mountains and were buried there. If no battles were fought in Dorne and no rebel armies were ever in Dorne, then Ned has to have made up some reason for Martyn and Dustin having died honorably in Dorne. Or he just told everybody but that they died doing what they did.

 

And then Barbrey is pissed that Dustin died in this event and was buried there but that Ned brought Lyanna's bones home. Ned telling Barbrey that Dustin died honorably, that he was buried in the Red Mountains, and that Barbrey is angry that Lyanna is not, all fits with Ned never trying to hide that he fought a battle for Lyanna in Dorne.

 

 

This is a general statement that has Ned relating his story to the world, when nothing of the sort happens in the books. Ned has said that Lyanna’s wolf-blood may have contributed to her demise, but only in private conversation with family members. This is not a public story that is projected to the world.

 

If Ned is telling his 9 year old daughter about parts of Lyanna's death why would you assume that he never told anybody else parts of her death? How is telling a 9 year old child keeping things uptight and secretive?

 

 

Do you have a citation for Ned being Ashara’s lover? And, we are not sure that Ned killed Arthur, or if Howland did the deed. But the reason for Ashara’s suicide is suggested by someone who is only guessing, and obviously gets some of his information third hand.

 

Do you really need a citation for Ned and Ashara being a thing? It's repeatedly stated in the books that there are stories of them having been a thing. Whether you believe those stories doesn't mean that the stories aren't there.

 

If they get their information third hand, then people are still talking about the events. And we have nothing suggesting that the stories told of Ashara's suicide weren't contributing factors.

 

 

This is not the first time that I have seen a forum member taking Cersei’s account seriously, but it really is no less funny than the first time!

 

You don't need to take Cersei's account seriously. It's in the books as someone mentioning that the event possibly happened. There arestories of Ned having a child with him when he left Starfall otherwise Cersei wouldn't just throw it out there, especially when trying to spite Ned.

 

 

He actually says that Arthur Dayne would have slain him except for Howland Reed somehow saving Ned.

 

Did Arthur try and kill him by passive aggressively staring at him or did Arthur try and kill him with a sword? If Arthur tried to kill him then that points to a battle.

 

 

Ned was asked if it were true that the Kingsguard are the best knights, and he tells Bran that they were a shining example to the world. Then Bran asks who is the greatest among them, and Ned tells him that Arthur was the finest knight that he had ever seen.

 

Which means that Ned has to have seen Arthur in some knightly capacity far outshining the rest. Given that Ned only saw Arthur at Harrenhal losing to Rhaegar Targaryen, Ned has to have seen Arthur at another time being the finest knight he had ever seen. If he's going around telling people Arthur was the finest knight he ever saw but everyone knows that Ned would have only seen Arthur not being the finest knight there, then people would probably scratch their heads at the inconsistency. Or it's just common knowledge that he fought Arthur and there's no inconsistency. Which it is as there's rumors everywhere that they did.

[MtnLion]

Or someone told them that they're dead. Which is a better explanation for how Varys, Arya, Darkstar, Jaime, Myrcella etc, all people of various backgrounds, know that the KG are dead. Rather than just everyone assuming they must have died for Robert to have made new KG. Robert was under no obligation to keep any of Aerys KG as we know that Jaime and Barristan both swore themselves to Robert. They weren't automatically his KG simply because he was king of Westoros now, they were still Aerys' until Robert took them on.

And, after Robert died, they ceased being Kingsguard? After Joffrey died, they ceased being Kingsguard? Nope, Barristan deserted Viserys, it is known. Jaime deserted Viserys as well. Robert is a Usurper, and three Kingsguard say so to Ned, and end up fighting Ned rather than surrendering. So, what is there in the story that Ned must tell to Robert when he tells him about the encounter with the Kingsguard? “I met three Kingsguard while searching for Lyanna, and they refused to surrender, and they died. No, I don’t know what they were doing, they never mentioned.” Even if asked Ned need not reveal that the battle occurred at the tower of joy, or that Lyanna was present.

It's right in Yandel's history book that Arthur died fighting beside his sworn brothers when he faced Ned.

That is one story, for those that are unable to count. Not stories.

Ned told Barbrey and Jory that Lord Dustin and Martyn Cassel were buried in the Red Mountains of Dorne.

Ned told Barbrey Dustin that her husband was buried, perhaps even that he fought far to the south. Perhaps even in Dorne, but did he tell her at the “tower of joy”? Or, that Lyanna ws present?

And Ned mentions that "it was said" that Rhaegar had named that tower the tower of joy which means that there were people who knew the location

Ned does not mention it, he dreams it. Who is sharing Ned’s dreams?

Nobody indirectly. But as Lord Varys pointed out, if the KG were nowhere where they were supposed to be, then the last remaining option is that they were with Lyanna as Lyanna was still missing.

Oh, the poster Lord Varys is making your arguments for you? Who said that the Kingsguard were not where they were supposed to be? Ned doesn’t tell anybody where they were supposed to be, or what they were doing when he encounters them and they are killed. He does not tell anyone, or even directly think, that Lyanna is present with the Kingsguard, as that certainly is going to give it away to the in story Varys, or maybe even Littlefinger. It seems that somehow your reader’s knowledge has blurred into in-world knowledge.

If Ned told Robert why wouldn't he have told anybody else? And seeing as Robert was king by the time that Ned would have told him, Robert's life of privacy was gone. He already had Barristan and Jaime as KG back then so we know that he was already being watched night and day. Which IMO fits with why Jaime knows that Arthur, Oswell, and Gerold are all dead and that Gerold died being loyal to the end - because either Ned told the court in general, or Jaime was guarding Robert when Ned told Robert about Lyanna's death.

It does make sense that Ned told Robert about Lyanna’s death, as she is buried at Winterfell, and Robert uses that as a pretext for a visit. Ned even tells us that he and Robert only made up over their shared grief at the loss of Lyanna. But, there is nothing that needs to be revealed that would tie the three Kingsguard to Lyanna. If it is revealed, then too many thoughts will be directed at why. It seems logical that Ned hired passage from Starfall back north, at least for Howland, precious cargo, and Dustin’s horse.

Ned told Barbrey and Jory that Dustin and Martyn died fighting in the Red Mountains and were buried there. If no battles were fought in Dorne and no rebel armies were ever in Dorne, then Ned has to have made up some reason for Martyn and Dustin having died honorably in Dorne. Or he just told everybody but that they died doing what they did.

Where did Ned leave his rebel army? He broke company with them at Storm’s End. No, no rebel army was in Dorne, only loyalists. The Three Kingsguard are being loyalists, when they refuse to surrender. Ned happens to be travelling in Dorne, looking for his sister. That still does not tie Lyanna to the three Kingsguard. They encounterd three Kingsguard that would not surrender, and insisted upon fighting Ned and his men.

And then Barbrey is pissed that Dustin died in this event and was buried there but that Ned brought Lyanna's bones home. Ned telling Barbrey that Dustin died honorably, that he was buried in the Red Mountains, and that Barbrey is angry that Lyanna is not, all fits with Ned never trying to hide that he fought a battle for Lyanna in Dorne.

But, see you are putting the battle of the three Kingsguard together with what Ned reveals to us, piecemeal about where he finds Lyanna. Ned doesn’t tell anybody where he found Lyanna.

If Ned is telling his 9 year old daughter about parts of Lyanna's death why would you assume that he never told anybody else parts of her death? How is telling a 9 year old child keeping things uptight and secretive?

That her wolf-blood led to an early grave? That is secret stuff?

Ashara supposedly committed suicide partly because of her brother's death by her lover's hand

Do you have a citation for Ned being Ashara’s lover? And, we are not sure that Ned killed Arthur, or if Howland did the deed. But the reason for Ashara’s suicide is suggested by someone who is only guessing, and obviously gets some of his information third hand.

Do you really need a citation for Ned and Ashara being a thing? It's repeatedly stated in the books that there are stories of them having been a thing. Whether you believe those stories doesn't mean that the stories aren't there.
If they get their information third hand, then people are still talking about the events. And we have nothing suggesting that the stories told of Ashara's suicide weren't contributing factors.

Yes, I would like the citations. I know of one rumor that Ned squelched. But, I want proof that Ned and Ashara were romantically involved.

You don't need to take Cersei's account seriously. It's in the books as someone mentioning that the event possibly happened. There arestories of Ned having a child with him when he left Starfall otherwise Cersei wouldn't just throw it out there, especially when trying to spite Ned.

Do you have a citation for the stories, or is this a made up dismissal. Cersei is being put on notice by Ned that she and her children will be outed when Robert returns. Cersei responds as only Cersei can respond, to kill Robert and threaten Ned. Cersei is guessing, and guessing wrongly, but Ned cannot afford to have any questions about Jon.

Did Arthur try and kill him by passive aggressively staring at him or did Arthur try and kill him with a sword? If Arthur tried to kill him then that points to a battle.

And, your point is?

Which means that Ned has to have seen Arthur in some knightly capacity far outshining the rest. Given that Ned only saw Arthur at Harrenhal losing to Rhaegar Targaryen, Ned has to have seen Arthur at another time being the finest knight he had ever seen. If he's going around telling people Arthur was the finest knight he ever saw but everyone knows that Ned would have only seen Arthur not being the finest knight there, then people would probably scratch their heads at the inconsistency. Or it's just common knowledge that he fought Arthur and there's no inconsistency. Which it is as there's rumors everywhere that they did.

The knightly capacity of keeping his oath. (Not to mention the stories that Ned may have heard about Arthur and the King’s Wood Outlaws.)

[SFDanny]

Yandel writes this:

 

 

"Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died noble with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect." (TWoI&F 239) bold emphasis added.

 

It's no secret that Hightower and Whent are with Dayne when Ned meets them. It is highly, highly unlikely it isn't known they died at the Tower of Joy guarding Lyanna.

[MtnLion]

Yandel writes this:
 
 
It's no secret that Hightower and Whent are with Dayne when Ned meets them. It is highly, highly unlikely it isn't known they died at the Tower of Joy guarding Lyanna.

Likely, unlikely have equal weight. But, when one considers that having the Kingsguard defending Lyanna raises questions in the minds of men like Varys and Littlefinger, at the very least, makes it extremely unlikely that Ned is going to give that little secret away. Your turn, show me why Ned is going to reveal that the Kingsguard are guarding the place that Rhaegar named the tower of joy, and guarding Lyanna to anyone.

[SFDanny]

Likely, unlikely have equal weight. But, when one considers that having the Kingsguard defending Lyanna raises questions in the minds of men like Varys and Littlefinger, at the very least, makes it extremely unlikely that Ned is going to give that little secret away. Your turn, show me why Ned is going to reveal that the Kingsguard are guarding the place that Rhaegar named the tower of joy, and guarding Lyanna to anyone.

 

If Yandel knows they died together, it is no secret. Ned obviously told someone, and there are numerous candidates for whom he told. Robert, who we know he tells of Lyanna's death, is first and foremost on this list, but it also has to include the men and wives of Ned's companions who died there. It is likely he also told the Daynes. There is really no reason to hide this from anyone. Ned's cover story about Lyanna's death, and the deaths of the men at the Tower of Joy is the truth minus the presence of a child. The cover story is really only necessary for that purpose - to hide the identity of the child. He does that with his trip to Starfall, and with Wylla's claim to be Jon's mother. Do some people question Ned's story? I think they do, but the only person who really counts is Robert. If Robert believes the story, and no one else has proof Ned is lying, then the story, or stories, work.

[Lord Varys]

Only if you are in a mindset demanding that you think 'Jon Snow has to be the ultimate state secret' do you end up thinking it is unthinkable Ned wouldn't reveal pretty much everything about the tower besides Jon Snow.

 

But we really don't need to expose this approach as nonsensical. Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower were very prominent and important figures. Even if Rhaegar had not said anything to anyone about their whereabouts, Varys would still have needed only a second to figure out where there were, and so would pretty anyone else at court - unless we assume that nobody knew that Rhaegar had been with Lyanna before he came back (which would be even more stupid). This couldn't have possibly been a secret unless we assume all people involved were behaving like incoherent idiots from a fan fiction universe not written by George.

 

If Ned didn't include the deaths of those knights - and one assumes that he would have told the truth at least to Daynes, and from Starfall the knowledge could easily have spread - he would have to invent a completely made-up story about where he encountered the Kingsguard, what they were doing there, how he killed them, etc. Such a story could easily have destroyed his whole web of lies if anyone cared to investigate this thing any further.

 

Keeping the Kingsguard out of his story entirely wouldn't have made any sense at all since without Ned/Howland talking about them nobody would ever have learned that they were actually dead, and nobody could have developed the notion that they died nobly or stayed true until the end. In fact, one would assume that Ned had, if he had told a lie about them, invented some story that would disconnect them from Lyanna as thoroughly as possible. Say, by inventing a story that they had betrayed Rhaegar and were put to death by him prior to his return to KL (assuming that Rhaegar didn't talk about them - which would make little sense, but still). Or, perhaps even better - that some contingent of Targaryen loyalists had lynched them after they learned that they were intending to turn their cloaks.

 

In essence, Ned's grand plan to hide the identity of his nephew isn't very good. Many informed people should have seen right through it, and unless we assume George's writing isn't as bad as ML's interpretation of it, a good guess that some people actually did but may have kept silent. Or simply did not care. Littlefinger is completely irrelevant to this topic since the man was a mere boy at that time and certainly neither capable of gathering any knowledge nor interesting in studying Stark bastards.

 

As to the Kingsguard:

 

Back then this institution was following very strict rules. You served for life, and if your death wasn't confirmed there could be no new brother. Robert's Kingsguard as an institution was the same as Aerys', although he possibly would have executed Barristan and Jaime had they sworn their oaths to him. Even so, with three White Swords 'missing in action' Robert couldn't have simply filled their spots without first finding and asking them to submit to him. Not to mention that them remaining unaccounted for would have been a thorn in his side and a potential threat should they make common cause with Viserys III or Dorne. If Ned hadn't talked about them at all, Robert's investigation would have completely unraveled Ned's web of lies.

[MtnLion]

The World Book says that Arthur died beside his sworn brothers facing Ned
 
 
So it has to be fairly common knowledge that Ned killed the 3 KG if Yandel knows. Ned's soldiers talked about him fighting Arthur in Winterfell, who knows what Howland's said to anybody, Ned tells Bran that he and Howland fought Arthur etc. The stories that we know are all in the north so Yandel would need a northern source for knowing that Arthur, Oswell, and Gerold all died together facing Ned, or it's just common knowledge in the realm that the 3 KG faced Ned at the end of the Rebellion. Jaime at least knows that Gerold, Oswell, and Arthur are all dead, and that Hightower was loyal to the end so he indicates that it's known what the KG were doing when they died.
 
ETA: Barbrey also knows that her husband died in a battle for Lyanna as she's angry that Ned brought Lyanna's bones home but only brought Dustin's horse back as he'd buried him where he died.

Jaime at least knows says that Gerold, Oswell, and Arthur are all dead, and that Hightower was loyal to the end so he indicates that it's known what the KG were doing when they died.

 

Fixed that sentence for you.  Barbrey knows exactly what?  That her husband died in the south and was buried there?  That Ned brought Lyanna's bones back from the south?  How are you tying to two events together?  It is pretty obvious that Barbrey doesn't, even though she protests too much. 

[MtnLion]

 

If Yandel knows they died together, it is no secret. Ned obviously told someone, and there are numerous candidates for whom he told. Robert, who we know he tells of Lyanna's death, is first and foremost on this list, but it also has to include the men and wives of Ned's companions who died there. It is likely he also told the Daynes. There is really no reason to hide this from anyone. Ned's cover story about Lyanna's death, and the deaths of the men at the Tower of Joy is the truth minus the presence of a child. The cover story is really only necessary for that purpose - to hide the identity of the child. He does that with his trip to Starfall, and with Wylla's claim to be Jon's mother. Do some people question Ned's story? I think they do, but the only person who really counts is Robert. If Robert believes the story, and no one else has proof Ned is lying, then the story, or stories, work.

I know that they died together, that is not the problem, here.  The problem is what they were doing, and connecting them to Lyanna. 

 

The cover story is not the issue either.  The connection between the Kingsguard dying and Lyanna is what we are talking about.  Ned cannot reveal that without someone getting a hint.  Varys and Littlefinger with a hint, will not rest until they know the whole story. 

[MtnLion]

If Ned didn't include the deaths of those knights - and one assumes that he would have told the truth at least to Daynes, and from Starfall the knowledge could easily have spread - he would have to invent a completely made-up story about where he encountered the Kingsguard, what they were doing there, how he killed them, etc. Such a story could easily have destroyed his whole web of lies if anyone cared to investigate this thing any further.

The only thing that I find really nonsensical is sniping away, when you know that you are ignored.

Ned did include the three Kingsguard's deaths, there is no doubt. There is significant doubt about him explaining where he encountered them, what he said that they were doing, and why they would not surrender. If Ned does not know why and what, but the where is in the mountains while searching for his sister, it is not a web of lies, it is neglecting to tell what he found out afterwards.

Not being into fanfic myself, I'll await actual details from GRRM. I will find it to be a disappointing story if it becomes clear that in-world sleuths like Varys and Littlefinger should have figured it out, but failed miserably.