R+L=J v.153

[UnViserion]

 

Why not rhaegar send a group to capture Lyanna but himself did not show up?(assume Lyanna is willing). 

 

 

That is actually one of the pillars of my pending thread!
 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

Darn.

 

I could have sworn I read somewhere that she'd been staying in Harrenhal.

Thanks tho
 

Lyanna staying at Harrenhal was a theory long before the World Book came out.  Perhaps that's what you read?

[purple-eyes]

Lyanna staying at Harrenhal was a theory long before the World Book came out.  Perhaps that's what you read?

True. It is theory only. I do not see why lyanna had to be in HH. My theory: She was on the way to her brother wedding. Then she had a plan with rhaegar and ran off with him.

[UnViserion]

Lyanna staying at Harrenhal was a theory long before the World Book came out.  Perhaps that's what you read?

 

It's very possible. Just wish I was a little more certain (relatively, this is ASOIAF we're talking about) because it would tie up my theory decently.. I'm at nearly 2 full pages in my word document but when you put a bunch of effort into something you want it to be as accurate as possible.

Otherwise ery'body just focuses on one or two small details to discredit the whole thing, which would surely render me sad and melancholic. :dunce:

[King of the Narrow Sea]

 

It's very possible. Just wish I was a little more certain (relatively, this is ASOIAF we're talking about) because it would tie up my theory decently.. I'm at nearly 2 full pages in my word document but when you put a bunch of effort into something you want it to be as accurate as possible.

Otherwise ery'body just focuses on one or two small details to discredit the whole thing, which would surely render me sad and melancholic. :dunce:

 

The passage is

 

 

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

[Avalatis]

 

The passage is

 

 

I wonder who witnessed the abduction. I'm guessing Lyanna had some house guard with her, as she wouldn't be traveling alone. It would be nice if Yandel actually cited his sources... "According to farmer Joe and guard captain mike".

[MtnLion]

Darn.
 
I could have sworn I read somewhere that she'd been staying in Harrenhal.

Thanks tho

That is a case of reading someone's suggestions as fact, and likely on this thread as well. I have seen that put forward multiple times, but it is not clear where Lyanna was between Harrenhal and abduction, even though she objects to the betrothal AT Winterfell. It seems clear from the timeline that it must be after Harrenhal, but many do not like that idea.

[Alia of the knife]

The app. stated that it was all three, Dayne, Whent and Rhaegar that took Lyanna

Also, given the violent language in the WB, I wonder if they didn't have a fight like Joffrey and Arya, (not that that Rhaegar is like Joffrey).

[purple-eyes]

That is a case of reading someone's suggestions as fact, and likely on this thread as well. I have seen that put forward multiple times, but it is not clear where Lyanna was between Harrenhal and abduction, even though she objects to the betrothal AT Winterfell. It seems clear from the timeline that it must be after Harrenhal, but many do not like that idea.

 

I am not sure. But it is hard to imagine she would stay in HH in stead of her home winterfell. 

It made a lot of sense to me that she just traveled from Winterfell to attend the wedding in Riverrun. That road crossing from North to Riverrun is not far from HH. IMHO she and rhaegar planned this "abduction" to run off together. She only needed to tell Rhaegar where she would be at some certain time point. 

[Lord Varys]

ML,

 

that has been debunked by TWoIaF. Lyanna had long been betrothed to Robert at Harrenhal, which means the conversation you refer took most likely place before Harrenhal, and may actually not have been connected to the betrothal at all but rather to Robert fathering Mya and a general disillusionment about him. We have actually no clue when exactly Robert and Lyanna were betrothed.

[purple-eyes]

The app. stated that it was all three, Dayne, Whent and Rhaegar that took Lyanna

Also, given the violent language in the WB, I wonder if they didn't have a fight like Joffrey and Arya, (not that that Rhaegar is like Joffrey).

 

i think everything can be played as an "abduction on sword point". 

Lyanna and Rhaegar just need to be decent actors. 

[purple-eyes]

 

That is actually one of the pillars of my pending thread!
 

 

It is amazing that Rhaegar decided to capture Lyanna by himself!

How stupid this is!

Everybody will know it is him who capture her. 

[King of the Narrow Sea]

That is a case of reading someone's suggestions as fact, and likely on this thread as well. I have seen that put forward multiple times, but it is not clear where Lyanna was between Harrenhal and abduction, even though she objects to the betrothal AT Winterfell. It seems clear from the timeline that it must be after Harrenhal, but many do not like that idea.

 

Because it's wrong.

 

 And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

 

Lyanna has to have been betrothed to Robert way before the tourney, not afterwards for her to have been "long betrothed to Robert Baratheon" by the time she is crowned QOLAB at Harrenhal.

[UnViserion]

 

It is amazing that Rhaegar decided to capture Lyanna by himself!

How stupid this is!

Everybody will know it is him who capture her. 

 

Maybe that was the point, and it wasn't on Rhaegar's initiative?

[purple-eyes]

 

Maybe that was the point, and it wasn't on Rhaegar's initiative?

 

it is Lyanna who abducted Rhaegar. 

[UnViserion]

 

it is Lyanna who abducted Rhaegar. 

 

:lol:

 

That's funny.

 

But no. I'm thinking Aerys
 

[MtnLion]

Because it's wrong.
 
 
Lyanna has to have been betrothed to Robert way before the tourney, not afterwards for her to have been "long betrothed to Robert Baratheon" by the time she is crowned QOLAB at Harrenhal.

As we keep finding out, though, Yandel is not very accurate. The night that her betrothal was announced Lyanna told Ned that Robert would not change his nature (fathering bastard children) even if he loved her, while at Winterfell. Ned was fostered at the Eyrie, and Mya is born very near the time of Harrenhal Tourney. It would not make sense for Ned to travel during the winter to Winterfell, and then back to the Eyrie to come to Harrenhal from the Eyrie, thus it must be after the tourney that he travels to Winterfell. Perhaps we will find out that all of the Starks wintered at Winterfell. There was one SSM that mentioned after winter Brandon responded to Littlefinger's challenge, but it quickly disappeared. ;)

ETA Since the World Book has confirmed that there was a harsh winter after Harrenhal, the SSM may reappear.

[Lord Varys]

Or Ned's memory is not very accurate.

 

But the whole thing can actually be resolved a different way. We know Robert asked for Lyanna's hand through Ned, suggesting that Ned went to Winterfell, put Robert's proposal before Lord Rickard, and subsequently was at Winterfell when it was announced. Ned fostering time with Jon had ended when he reached his majority, but he and Robert continued to visit their friend. Mya Stone was born in 279 AC, which puts the announcement of the betrothal two years before Harrenhal - and Robert may have shown interest earlier still. One assumes that the Starks at one point visited Ned in the Vale - perhaps also to visit Rickard's kin there, and Robert developed his thing for Lyanna then. I doubt that this match was made in the casual way of 'I'm unmarried, you have a sister'.

 

With the Year of the False Spring being 281 AC and Mya being born in 279 AC we have two years between these two events and Mya's birth year is pretty thoroughly established. Considering the youth of Lyanna in 281 AC it is entirely justified that Yandel says that Lyanna had long been betrothed to Robert at this point.

 

Any other theory on that matter is debunked. And truly, whatever alternative was being tossed around was based on concepts like 'Ned never left the Vale', 'Ned was fostered in the Vale forever' and created the contradiction that the crowning couldn't have possibly been that big a deal if Lyanna and Robert hadn't been betrothed to each other at this point. But it clearly was.

[Alia of the knife]

I think also you can see some of the bias in that Yandel disparages Lyannas beauty where even Kevin and Jaime Lannister acknowledge it as I don't think "wild, boyish " women were Roberts fancy.
So Yandel appears to report Rhaegar did it all for the throne rather than just being taken with Lyanna as per Jorahs own tourney story.

[corbon]

corbon,
 
you are not checking all your sources. Yandel tells us that Aerys II only met with Tywin after the death of Steffon Baratheon in the presence of all seven knights of the Kingsguard. There was a point when he entrusted them mostly/only with his personal safety. But my point in essence was that Aerys apparently used the KG for personal use most of the time, assigning them indeed various duties over the years.

I don't need every source. I'm showing a pattern. Instead you cherry pick a single data point, extrapolate from that and claim your extrapolation holds true even when other data points show differently.
I started with the ability to respectfully disagree with you, but performances like this erode that.
 
It is not 'after a point' or 'most of the time'. Its not even close to either of those. Its one particular time.
Its undeniable that Whent and Dayne were not with Aerys, but with Rhaegar from the time he rode to the Riverlands before the abduction. Aerys has at most 5/7 KG with him.
Its undeniable that Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar. Aerys has at most 4/7 KG with him.
Its undeniable that Selmy and Darry were sent to gather, rally, train etc the scattered royalist forces after BoBells. Aerys has at most 2/7 KG with him.
Its undeniable that only Jaime stayed with Aerys when Rahegar took the army off to the Trident to defeat the rebels. Aerys ahas only 1/7 KG with him.
Really.... :bang:
 

But there is no hint that he had ever named a Kingsguard permanently to any of of his family members as a sword shield - like other kings in the past did.
 
That is important because a sworn shield may have felt honor-bound by office to obey this prince pretty much in everything unless the king didn't give contradicting commands or reassigned him. If neither Oswell nor Arthur were Rhaegar's sworn shields the fact that they accompanied Rhaegar on his quest may have been at odds with or even against Aerys' orders/wishes - which would mean they did so because Rhaegar was their friend rather than because they were doing their duty.

 
Who said anything about a sworn shield?
And why wouldn't a KG generally obey orders of an adult crown prince they were assigned to guard, so long as those orders don't directly contradict their standing orders or the kings orders?
 
You are inventing that them accompanying Rhaegar was against Aerys' order or wishes, and it appears doing so based on your blatantly false assumption that Aerys kept all 7 KG close to him all the time (after a certain point). Its simply unnecessary and counter-indicated by their later pride in KG status and support for Aerys at ToJ.
 

Well, you can phrase 'taking power away from the king' as 'doing something for the king's own safety' but for a loyal Kingsguard the better word for such a thing is treason. The Kingsguard is not supposed to judge the king, right?

Thats silly. Every human judges, thats inescapable. The KG do not publicly judge (challenge) the King. But everyone judges and an honourable man can and will judge, privately. And an honourable man can sometimes find honourable ways to circumvent (by preventing the opportunity to receive them, for example) dishonourable commands.
 
And no, a truly honourable Kingsguard may be willing to work, carefully, honourably, against the kings wishes for the good of the king. In certain circumstances.
For example, helping a peaceful, legal, widely supported, reduction of a mad and self-harmful (physically and/or in decision making) kings powers by installing a sane Regent who is already the heir and thus removing the King's ability to harm his rulership and his dynasty's hold on that rulership while keeping the King safe and the crown still in the King's name and family.
 

Whatever different instructions the Kingsguard might have had would have been uncovered, right? I mean if the guys are missing, and if Ned doesn't tell anything people would want to know. Robert would want to know.

So?
Ned says, "yeah, Daynes dead, thats why I returned Dawn. Why are you asking me about Whent and Hightower?" End of conversation. What are they going to do? They don't know Whent and Hightower were there so they have no reason to push Ned if he doesn't give them one. They'll look for a while, how long depending on how much they care (next to nothing for Robert I'd bet) and eventually give up.

 

And I don't see Robert giving a shit, frankly. The war is done, he's won, he's newly the Kin, with a hot new wife and wine and wenches all he could imagine, and he is the forgiving, don't-care-about-the-details sort.
Others might want to know, their families especially (although the Whents have been shredded, aren't going to have too much time to be bothered about an uncle who was technically forsworn to the family anyway, and the Hightowers were on the losing side, so can't push too hard) but there's not a lot they can do. Ned's a very powerful man in his own right, a Great Lord and very close to the King. They can't press him hard and don't have any evidence to do so either,
 

There is also no 'Targaryen Kingsguard' and a 'Baratheon Kingsguard', there is just the Kingsguard. Robert take the Targaryen throne, the Targaryen castle, and the Targaryen Kingsguard. He doesn't create a rival order nor does he acknowledge that there is a 'rival Targaryen king'. He is the king, and the Kingsguard have either swear an oath of fealty to him or (presumably) die. The idea that Robert can just name a new KG when he wants to makes no sense in light of the fact that order simply continued unchanged until Cersei began dismissing KG at a whim.

 

Riiiight... which is why Robert has to re-name Selmy and Jaime to his KG.
Jaime and Selmy can't continue on in the same Targaryen KG under a Usurper Baratheon King while the Targaryne dynasty remains, however diminished, without failing everything their vows stood for (which might not make a difference to Jaime, but certainly would to Selmy). But they can sign on to a new KG, a Baratheon KG, modelled exactly the same as the old one, now that the Targaryen dynasty has been effectively destroyed.

Note that Renly formed his own KG too.  
 

If we don't know pretty much the real reason how a man like Hightower died, how can Jaime believe he stayed true until the end. How is it that he does not wonder what exactly happened to him - couldn't he have sold the crown jewels in Lys and got his throat cut by a thieving whore?

 

Because Jaime knew Hightower.

Thats all that is needed for his belief.
 

And I really wonder whether Ned Stark could really play 'I don't say anything' when the fate of a close relative of one of the most powerful Lords of the entire Realm was in the balance. If Lord Leyton wanted to know what had happened he would have found out, and if Ned hadn't told a convincing story he might have uncovered the whole Jon Snow business in the process - you know, paying people to backtrack Ser Gerold's steps from KL to wherever he ended up being, and one imagines that those people would then also have learned that Ned Stark and his guys had been close by, at a place where Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen had been, too. And Robert or Varys would have done the same if Ned's explanations hadn't convinced them.

If Hightower could do that successfully, good luck to him. Its a pretty slim chance. The country has been riven by civil war and Hightower has not been seen for more than 6 months, after being sent on a mission by Aerys. People die, people disappear during war, especially during civil wars. And Westerosi people understand that too, better than modern westerners do in their cocooned little information-easy lives.
Its extremely likely Lord Hightower would bother with such a step, and extremely likely we could succeed if he did bother.
 

Putting Hightower (or any KG) in charge of protecting somebody against the king would be stupid in either scenario. What if Chelsted and secretly followed Hightower to wherever Hightower was going, had lain in wait there until Rhaegar left, and then demanded, speaking with the King's Voice, that the Kingsguard hand Lyanna over to them? What if Aerys himself had accompanied those men? They would have been bound to obey, and Rhaegar would have known that. Thus the only reasonable explanation to all that is - if Rhaegar feared Aerys was a danger to Lyanna - that he was convinced that those three men would not hand Lyanna over to anyone. Not the rebels, nor some guy, and not the King's Hand or the king himself. And if that's the case then those Kingsguard had effectively abandoned King Aerys II.

What if what if what if? You can invent unlikely fantasy scenarios up the wazoo, doesn't change anything. In your unlikely fantasy scenario thats likely whoever is left in charge unless they are in open rebellion against Aerys, something which you seem to hypothesise based on bad interpretations of data despite clear counter-indications in the text.
 

There is no reason to believe that Aerys needed Rhaegar all that much. For what exactly? Sure, he would have been a nice figurehead, but Aerys II also had those legendary Kingsguard he could use as commanders of his army, right? Why not give Ser Gerold Hightower and Ser Barristan Selmy the command? The men who defeated Maelys the Monstrous and the Band of Nine would have worked just as well as rallying points for Targaryen loyalists than a prince who had never won or fought one battle in his entire life. Aerys wanted to reconcile with Rhaegar again since he was searching for him for quite some time at this point, but there is no reason to believe that he desperately needed him.

 

No reason to believe...
Its explicit in the information we have been given.
When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert's Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship.
Then after Connington fails Aerys sends Hightower to find Rhaegar. And when Rhaegar comes back, he is clearly a close advisor to Aerys (convincing him to ask Lord Tywin for help) and overall military commander.

I don't know why Aerys chose that, but he clearly did. Once more you create useless alternatives that didn't happen. to support your failed point.

 

What level of 'desperation' Aerys had in picking Rhaegar is irrelevant. Its a fact that he sent for him, he took his advice and he allowed him to command. He picked Rhaegar and he relied on him. Period.
 

Oh, and I'm completely with you that part of Ned's motivation is that he doesn't want Jon Snow to be Rhaegar's (legitimate) son. That much is clear. My guess is that Ned did hide Jon's identity for as much for his own sake as he did it for Lyanna's - he would never have pushed Jon's claim, nor would he wanted to ruin his friendship with Robert permanently, or drag the North into another war due to all this Targaryen business. The best way to get out of all that and to get home was to conceal his identity. And that's also part of the reason why he is burying the truth within in himself and never talks about any of that - the other would be the grief connected to all that. But the reason that this would be all that 'dangerous' most likely wasn't part of any of that.

 

Its patently obvious that what concerns Ned most about Jon is the danger of Robert finding out he is dragonspawn. And Lyanna being guarded by 3KG points strongly in that direction, even if it doesn't prove it. Ned is strongly against anyone even thinking in that general direction - witness his reaction to Caitlyn asking about Jon's mother - "Never ask me about Jon"
 

I see. So the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna isn't important, people would probably have figured that out anyways. What's not known is if they had remained at the tower.
 
I would argue the obvious reasoning is the Kingsguard had not heard the news yet which is why they were still at the tower guarding Lyanna.

 
There is a difference, a huge difference, in figuring out one possibility among many possibilities, and having something confirmed by an eyewitness.
 
And the ToJ dialogue proves they have heard the news of the Trident and the sack. All Ned does is mention the Trident and they immediately respond calling Robert 'the Usurper' (capitalised, which is important) which shows they know Aerys is dead and Robert crowned.
Robert the rebel might be called a usurper (no capital) - might (more likely just called a rebel). Robert the Usurper has been crowned as King, a king they do not accept.
 

Yeah. We have only very limited information. 
But they probably knew they already lost the war and thus foresaw their own death too. 
otherwise why Arthur had a sad smile?

He barely knew Ned, I think. And also Ned is one of the usurpers. 
Unless he knew Ned is the true love of his sister Ashara, I can not see a reason that he is sad for killing Ned.

 
Ned didn't choose to be a usurper or even a rebel though. Aerys demanded his head for no reason at all. He was effectively forced to rebel by a mad, cruel, irrational king.
That alone is cause for sadness for an honourable man like Dayne.
 

That is a case of reading someone's suggestions as fact, and likely on this thread as well. I have seen that put forward multiple times, but it is not clear where Lyanna was between Harrenhal and abduction, even though she objects to the betrothal AT Winterfell. It seems clear from the timeline that it must be after Harrenhal, but many do not like that idea.

 
That she stayed in the south was always only a theory, the 'most likely' option.

Many do not like 'that idea' because they simply don't agree that 'it seems clear from the timeline'.
 

I am not sure. But it is hard to imagine she would stay in HH in stead of her home winterfell. 
It made a lot of sense to me that she just traveled from Winterfell to attend the wedding in Riverrun. That road crossing from North to Riverrun is not far from HH. IMHO she and rhaegar planned this "abduction" to run off together. She only needed to tell Rhaegar where she would be at some certain time point.

 
The theory she stayed in or around Harrenhal (one of several options) is based on this combination of factors:
1. Travel takes a long time to and from Winterfell. Months, literally, usually. Lyanna and her brothers were in the south for the Harrenhal tournament, why go up and down when she will be back again for her brothers wedding in the riverlands in a year's time?
2. Lyanna is betrothed to a southern High Lord. In Winterfell she has no feminine influences and is something of a tomboy. Thats considerably less acceptable in the south. For her future as a Great Southern Lady she is going to need some suitable feminine training and role models. Suitable role models can be found at Harrenhal, where Lady Whent is a strong personality, sister to Brandon's mother-in-law-to-be so a (sort of) family connection, and has a daughter just a few years older (probably) than Lyanna (the girl whose birthday the tournament of Harrenhal was in honour).
3. Not just the 'Great Lady' role is important in itself, but also the relationships necessary for that role need to be formed. A Great Southern Lady will need working social relationships with other Southern Ladies, both from her Husband's vassal's wives and his peers wives. Stuck in Winterfell she can't form any such relationships and will likely end (start) in Storms End friendless and a stranger to all those she is expected to lead. Based in Harrenhal she has the opportunity to be more involved in Southern social life and form some connections at least that will both help her future role and make it a little less lonesome.

Its still just a theory though, even after the WoIaF confirmed she was 'taken' near Harrenhal.
 

It is amazing that Rhaegar decided to capture Lyanna by himself!
How stupid this is!
Everybody will know it is him who capture her.

 
How will they know?
What difference does it make? If the KG who are with Rhaegar do the dirty work, or Rhaegar does it himself? If Whent and Dayne do the deed, while away with Rhaegar, then Rhaegar (or possibly Aerys, which is politically worse) gets the blame anyway. They are KG, not just individuals.
And what sort of a man has his underlings do the dirty work just to keep his hands clean?