R+L=J v.153

[Alia of the knife]

While we already knew the show would finish first and that the ending would be bittersweet and that he admires Tolkien and seeks to copy some of what he did, we never (as far as I remember) had it spelled out like this:
 

(Same source as above) 
What startled me is that my facts and feelings are the same. I did not get that triple/quadruple/etc. ending. King of Gondor, great. Lorien, Rohan, great, Isengard, what else... The scouring of the Shire? I never got that one, nor Bilbo and also Frodo leaving, when I read it at 13 years old either. So I'll be prepared if I live to read the end of ASoIaF.

Agreed.

I think the distinction lay in The fact that though he admires Tolkien and he is an influence, Martin tried to find his own way as some of his issues have been with Tolkiens imitators which he is trying not to be.

[Avalatis]

Yeah I think it has been fairly obvious for a while that the T.V. series was going to beat Martin to the end. We had all hoped that the T.V. series was going to motivate him to write faster...

 

I think the big mystery is if Martin will be able to reveal Jon's parentage before the show does. I have a feeling the next season will have that reveal. But I guess if they go 8 seasons maybe they can hold off until the 7th.

[Alia of the knife]

I mean, I really think its okay now.

 

I can see not wanting to reveal anything in 1997 or 2000, (were any of you even born yet)? :shocked:

 

But, almost twenty years later? Lets get that monkey off our back so can all move on.

[Consigliere]

I think the big mystery is if Martin will be able to reveal Jon's parentage before the show does. I have a feeling the next season will have that reveal. But I guess if they go 8 seasons maybe they can hold off until the 7th.

While I would prefer for Martin to reveal it first, at this point, I wouldn't mind if it were revealed next season. The question of Jon's parentage has remained unanswered for far too long. With a bit of luck maybe Martin can get Winds out before season 6 - one can dream, right?

[Avalatis]

I would have liked to have gotten the reveal from the books. But the waiting is kind of tiresome. So yeah, the show can do the reveal for me.

[Lord Varys]

As long as we don't know in what kind of scenario or to whom George will reveal the Jon thing it is really hard to guess. The show might greatly diverge from what George has planned for that whole thing.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he went the way of the 'readers only' revelation first he did with the Bran attempt or the Jon Arryn murder thing before he considers revealing it to any POV - and then there is the question to whom, and who would care. Bran and Jon, I guess. Anybody else seems to have other things on his or her mind - not to mention that Arya and Sansa aren't exactly in a position to learn soon.

 

Hell, perhaps Jon Connington just casually remembers Varys telling them on their secret conferences in Lys that Rhaegar Targaryen had another son, disguised as Ned Stark's bastard, but that he is of no use in their plans since he doesn't look like a Targaryen. Wouldn't that be a surprise? And it would actually fit with the fact that Connington loathes Varys for some reason, as well as with the fact that he talks about Aegon as Rhaegar's firstborn son by Elia Martell. The idea that Jon Connington would ever support a son of Lyanna's is about zero, I think.

[SFDanny]

The idea that Jon Connington would ever support a son of Elia's is about zero, I think.

 

Isn't that exactly what he is doing? I don't get it, LV.

[Lord Varys]

Typo. Meant to say Lyanna. Due to the fact that Rhaegar really loved her, while Elia was an arranged match he could (grudgingly) accept.

[purple-eyes]

Typo. Meant to say Lyanna. Due to the fact that Rhaegar really loved her, while Elia was an arranged match he could (grudgingly) accept.

 

Honestly I do not think JonCon (as a gay) care about who is the mother or if Rhaegar loved the mother or not. He only care about if this is son of Rhaegar or not. If he figured out Aegon is fake, I can see he chooses to support Jon Snow. 

[Avalatis]

I guess it's been a while since I've read Jon Connington's view, but I recall him not caring for Elia at all. Is there any reason (besides Aegon being first born and perhaps legitimate) that Jon would side with a son of Elia over a son of Lyanna?

[Lord Varys]

Connington resents Elia as well, and thinks she was 'not worthy of Rhaegar'. That suggests that he had another guy in mind who would have fit those criteria (himself). Lyanna never comes up once in his mind, though, suggesting that she is a much stronger trauma for him than Elia ever could be. The man really is haunted by his past. He doesn't like Lysono Maar just because his look remind him of Rhaegar, and he feels haunted by his ghost. What made Connington support the Aegon plan was the boy himself, and, presumably, that he could see Rhaegar in him, believed that something of his beloved friend had survived. Had he looked like Elia or Lyanna - as Jon does - he would never have agreed to the plan. Not to mention that it wouldn't have worked under those circumstances. Nobody would rise for a Targaryen that could be a fraud and doesn't even look like a Targaryen. And both applies to Aegon as well as Jon in light of the fact that people will have to believe what a bunch of other people says about them.

 

George has set up scenario which will force Connington to remember Elia and Lyanna very vividly - Elia Sand, the Lady Lance, has Elia's name while essentially behaving like a young Lyanna. That is going to bring quite a lot of memories to the surface, and most likely trigger Jon Connington's version of the tourney of Harrenhal, if it doesn't lead to him spilling the beans about Jon Snow.

 

Connington is actually in a position to know pretty much everything we want to know about this topic. He may have been with Rhaegar when he abducted Lyanna (one of the half a dozen companions), he may have been with Rhaegar when he married Lyanna (if that happened at all/shortly after the abduction itself), he may know that Lyanna was pregnant (if he only left Rhaegar/Lyanna once they learned realized that this was the case or he might have heard about it later), and he might know about Jon if Varys told him (a lot of Connington's post-Stony Sept knowledge could come from Varys who would have to have told quite a lot of stuff to convince him to join their team when they met in Lys.

[purple-eyes]

Connington resents Elia as well, and thinks she was 'not worthy of Rhaegar'. That suggests that he had another guy in mind who would have fit those criteria (himself). Lyanna never comes up once in his mind, though, suggesting that she is a much stronger trauma for him than Elia ever could be. The man really is haunted by his past. He doesn't like Lysono Maar just because his look remind him of Rhaegar, and he feels haunted by his ghost. What made Connington support the Aegon plan was the boy himself, and, presumably, that he could see Rhaegar in him, believed that something of his beloved friend had survived. Had he looked like Elia or Lyanna - as Jon does - he would never have agreed to the plan. Not to mention that it wouldn't have worked under those circumstances. Nobody would rise for a Targaryen that could be a fraud and doesn't even look like a Targaryen. And both applies to Aegon as well as Jon in light of the fact that people will have to believe what a bunch of other people says about them.

 

George has set up scenario which will force Connington to remember Elia and Lyanna very vividly - Elia Sand, the Lady Lance, has Elia's name while essentially behaving like a young Lyanna. That is going to bring quite a lot of memories to the surface, and most likely trigger Jon Connington's version of the tourney of Harrenhal, if it doesn't lead to him spilling the beans about Jon Snow.

 

Connington is actually in a position to know pretty much everything we want to know about this topic. He may have been with Rhaegar when he abducted Lyanna (one of the half a dozen companions), he may have been with Rhaegar when he married Lyanna (if that happened at all/shortly after the abduction itself), he may know that Lyanna was pregnant (if he only left Rhaegar/Lyanna once they learned realized that this was the case or he might have heard about it later), and he might know about Jon if Varys told him (a lot of Connington's post-Stony Sept knowledge could come from Varys who would have to have told quite a lot of stuff to convince him to join their team when they met in Lys.

 

I highly doubt that JonCon knew this much about rhaegar's plan. 

He is not a very close friend like Arthur, he is not a close bodyguard or companion like Arthur or Oswell either.

IMHO, he is a lord and also a member of the council. More like a colleague, not a daily companion.

He was clearly not with Rhaegar in TOJ because he was assigned as hand during Rhaegar's absence (unless you said he abducted and then came back to KL and kept as a high secret all the time). 

He probably did not see Lyanna at all since after the HH. 

This is why he did not have much opinion or impression on Lyanna. He really did not know too much except HH stuff, which is known to the whole kingdom. 

[Avalatis]

Jon may know, or he may not. It would be a fairly easily reveal mechanism for George if he wanted to. Though Jon doesn't exist in the show, so it would be a fairly big divergence if he was the source.

 

Jon's resentment of Elia was not that she wasn't him (Jon), but that she lacked the vitality to match the spirit of Rhaegar. It also could have been that he knew that Rhaegar was not happy with the match. It also could be that because Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna and sent the realm into chaos makes him resent Elia for not being a good enough wife for him (we see similar perceptions from others). Jon doesn't come off as jealous of Elia if that is what you were implying.

 

There seems to be a odd consensus that Rhaegar was this great honorable man, and it was inconceivable that he would run off with another woman. So they think the only obvious explanation is that it was Elia's fault, and not the cheating abducting man. This leads me to believe (as others) that there were other plans in motion and the abduction of Lyanna was not a part of those plans.

 

Lyanna doesn't come up in Jon's point of view probably because he didn't know her at all. Which solidifies that he wasn't in on the abduction and probably had little interaction (if none) with Rhaegar after that point in history.

[Lord Varys]

The usual consensus of all the people that have speculated who the six companions were Connington always comes up as a name. The others are Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Myles Mooton, and Richard Lonmouth - leaving a sixth guy unaccounted for (most likely not Prince Lewyn, in my opinion). Jon Connington isn't Rhaegar's best friend - that supposedly is Ser Arthur - but he is one of his close companions and friends, unlike Barristan Selmy (who was neither Rhaegar's friend nor his close companion). That in itself makes it fairly unlikely that Aerys and the court didn't know what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna from the start since Connington eventually replaced Merryweather as Hand. That wouldn't have happened if Aerys hadn't believed he could trust Jon Connington - suggesting that Connington told him all that he knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

Now, one could argue that Connington returned to KL before the abduction or the wedding (if there was a wedding) but that doesn't make all that much sense. My personal guess is that Myles Mooton and Connington returned to KL on Rhaegar's orders to lobby for him and Lyanna at Aerys' court, and eventually succeeding (by the time Aerys named Connington Hand). But by then they didn't know where to find Rhaegar.

 

As to Elia not matching Rhaegar's spirit:

 

That makes no sense to me, actually. Rhaegar was a melancholic person, not a high-spirited guy. Elia being sickly and delicate would actually suit him much better than a tomboy like Lyanna. I actually think Jon comes off as being jealous of Elia - after all, she could marry Rhaegar - and if that's the case, then he would most likely be also jealous of Lyanna since she won Rhaegar's love - something Jon presumably wanted for himself. I'm not saying he wanted to be jealous of Elia, but that isn't a conscious choice.

 

Anyway, my point isn't that Jon Connington will reveal the Jon stuff to Jon Snow himself or another POV, but rather that he'll reveal it to the reader in his mind/memory. The TV series cannot really mimic that kind of thing. Whether the same book will then also elaborate on the Jon Snow thing really depends on how and when George actually wants to use this a plot point. It could be interwoven with the 'resurrection plot' - or not. It is really hard to say. If it does not come up then, then it could easily be postponed until after the fall or the Wall and Jon meeting Howland Reed and/or Daenerys and Tyrion.

 

But in general the fact that Connington most likely was with Rhaegar in the Riverlands is actually a strong clue that whatever was going on with Lyanna there wasn't exactly a state secret, and subsequently a wedding or pregnancy might not have been secret, too. I mean, it was great news that Rhaegar didn't go to the Riverlands only with Whent and Dayne, and whoever went with him didn't just disappear. In fact, since we don't know what happened to Richard Lonmouth he could have been with Rhaegar the tower until Rhaegar returned to kill - which means that he could know everything if he is still alive.

[MtnLion]

LV, I don't agree with the wiki's computation of Mya's birth date, as Robert could have been less than 17 years old almost all of 279 if he was born late in 262.  Then add nine months, and a few because Ned thinks of holding her, and you have middle late 280 for Mya's birth date.  This argument has been put forward before, but the author on the wiki does not wish to consider it.  

[Lord Varys]

ML, well, this isn't the main point. The main point is that we know that Robert and Lyanna had long been betrothed to each other by the time of Harrenhal. That is even a necessary precondition for the whole thing to develop into some sort scandal. Neither the Starks nor Robert would have had any reason to make a fuzz about the coronation if Lyanna had not, in fact, long been betrothed. In that case Robert should have kept his mouth shut as this was no business of his, and the Starks should have felt honored rather slighted by the whole thing.

 

Your personal beliefs in the private universe of your mind aren't important to all that. The facts paint a different picture of this whole thing. TWoIaF suggests that Robert was already born when Aerys II ascended the Iron Throne in 262 AC, and considering that this didn't seem to have happened late in 262 AC since Tywin was appointed Hand in the same year, you are not exactly on solid ground here. But then, instead of admitting or considering that you might be wrong you usual next move is to claim that Yandel/George is wrong here since, you know, the whole purpose of the Lyanna-Rhaegar portions of TWoIaF is to confuse rather than offer us clues to what actually happened.

 

And I'm not sure what you are aiming at there: 280 AC wasn't the Year of the False Spring, that was 281 AC, and thus Mya wouldn't have been born in the Year of the False Spring anyway. Not to mention that the quote goes about the announcement of the betrothal, not necessarily the arrangement (which could have made months or even years before that, only to be announced on this special day - say, perhaps Rickard hoped to lure Robert into the North for the whole thing, but he never came and so they eventually made the announcement without him).

 

If I remember your scenario correctly you are still adhering to the debunked theory that Robert and Lyanna first met at Harrenhal, and the betrothal business was sort of begun/approached there? If so, that was already highly problematic prior to TWoIaF and the App since it operated ignored the whole scandal thing.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

LV, I don't agree with the wiki's computation of Mya's birth date, as Robert could have been less than 17 years old almost all of 279 if he was born late in 262.  Then add nine months, and a few because Ned thinks of holding her, and you have middle late 280 for Mya's birth date.  This argument has been put forward before, but the author on the wiki does not wish to consider it.  

I cannot remember you ever having said anything about it.

 

There's a thread for those calculations, perhaps you could adress it there?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to the six companions who went into the riverlands with Rhaegar, Jon Connington might have been amongst them.. But that doesn't mean that he knew what Rhaegar's plan was, nor that he witnessed/helped. Jon and the other companions besides Dayne and Whent could have been sent back to KL by Rhaegar before he sent out towards Lyanna.

[Alia of the knife]

LV,

 

Agree on the trauma brought on by Lyanna, because I do think the fact that it is mentioned he is wearing a wolf skin pelt, makes me think he remembers Lyanna very well, and his sentiments for her are there for all to see draped around his shoulders, skinned and dead like a trophy.

 

Why does he need a wolk skin pelt where he is? Its fur.

 

I also agree that Rhaegar and Elia probably were not the best for each other by nature. One is sickly and probably can only take care of herself emotionally, and Rhaegar is melancholy, not the best to uplift Elia.

 

 

As one of the companions.

 

I also agree he may have been part of Lyanna entourage, but I speculate that ironically he may have tried to be the voice of reason, no matter his motivations, trying to stop Rhaegar, there was a argument, and he angrily rode away, maybe along with a few others.

 

 

 

Question:

 

Do we know how long Lyanna was the TOJ before she became pregnant?

[Consigliere]

I tend to agree with Lord Varys here. JonCon being one of the six companions is a reasonable conclusion to draw. The likes of JonCon, Jaime and Barristan certainly know more than what they have let on so far. Barristan and/or Jaime can fill the reader in on the goings on in KL between the Battle of the Bells and The Trident; like what story did Rhaegar provide concerning his whereabouts, his doings, and why Hightower did not return to KL with him. I doubt Rhaegar simply stayed silent on all of this. JonCon can provide more insight on what occurred between Harrenhal and his exile. Howland Reed can fill us in on the details at the ToJ and after. I'd be pretty disappointed if too much of the RLJ stuff is revealed via weirwood visions and such, especially when we have at least four characters -- three being povs -- that can provide firsthand accounts.