R+L=J v.154

[purple-eyes]

For political reasons, polygamy would be a big problem. I don't believe Rhaegar would have resorted to polygamy if he thought he had a choice. After Elia could have no more children, Rhaegar needed to have a third child to be the third head but could not get it from Elia. Once he decided to have the child with Lyanna, marrying her made sense for multiple reasons, including wanted the third head to be a "true" dragon in every sense. So Rhaegar did not just casually decide he wanted another wife, so go ahead and get one. The most compelling case, IMHO, is that Rhaegar did it largely out of desperation. He believed that the prophecy demanded it. He never would have considered it otherwise.

 

Prophecy demanded him to have a third child, not a second wife. 

He can always legitimize Jon when he becomes a king which is much safer and easier. 

If he is really so desperate, then he should set aside Elia to marry Lyanna publicly, which is more honorable for Lyanna.

Or he should marry Lyanna and then forgave his crown to appease everybody, which is also honorable and peaceful. 

But he ran off and hid, because he wanted to keep his crown and his previous family and his affair with Lyanna at the same time.

He is not desperate, he just too greedy. 

[purple-eyes]

Is it just me, or is there a Naerys-Elia parallel?

ETA: And perhaps even Aemon the Dragonknight-Arthur Dayne, regarding their relationship?

 

You are not alone. 

I saw a lot of parallels between Elia and Naerys,  Aemon and Arthur, Rhaegar and Aegon IV, and even Daena the defiant and Lyanna.  

It is obvious and hard to miss. 

they are the only two cases of Queen of love and beauty in the history which the husband wanted to crown another woman in stead of his own wife. All others were between single lovers. These two stories were even mentioned in the same chapter. 

 

If you are interested, please check this post. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/134534-rhaegar-the-unworthy/

[ckal9]

Has anyone read this? R + L = twins?

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jon-snow-theory-game-of-thrones_55dcbb45e4b04ae49704bcf3?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592&kvcommref=mostpopular

[Ygrain]

 

Prophecy demanded him to have a third child, not a second wife. 

He can always legitimize Jon when he becomes a king which is much safer and easier. 

If he is really so desperate, then he should set aside Elia to marry Lyanna publicly, which is more honorable for Lyanna.

Or he should marry Lyanna and then forgave his crown to appease everybody, which is also honorable and peaceful. 

But he ran off and hid, because he wanted to keep his crown and his previous family and his affair with Lyanna at the same time.

He is not desperate, he just too greedy. 

If he legitimizes Jon later, it makes Lyanna a mistress and mother to a bastard. If he sets Elia aside, he dishonours her and opens a potential succession crisis by undermining Aegon's claim and mightily pissing Dorne.

Giving up his claim for the crown won't appease anybody in this case. Dorne and Elia lose again and Starks don't gain anything by the marriage.

[purple-eyes]

If he legitimizes Jon later, it makes Lyanna a mistress and mother to a bastard. If he sets Elia aside, he dishonours her and opens a potential succession crisis by undermining Aegon's claim and mightily pissing Dorne.

Giving up his claim for the crown won't appease anybody in this case. Dorne and Elia lose again and Starks don't gain anything by the marriage.

 

That is why I said he is too greedy. 

You do not want to "dishonor" anybody, then eventually you dishonor and piss off everybody.

The best way to keep his true love is, give up everything (crown and family) and run off with Lyanna and disappear forever.  

Then he can enjoy his true love with all his heart and life. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Prophecy demanded him to have a third child, not a second wife. 

He can always legitimize Jon when he becomes a king which is much safer and easier. 

If he is really so desperate, then he should set aside Elia to marry Lyanna publicly, which is more honorable for Lyanna.

Or he should marry Lyanna and then forgave his crown to appease everybody, which is also honorable and peaceful. 

But he ran off and hid, because he wanted to keep his crown and his previous family and his affair with Lyanna at the same time.

He is not desperate, he just too greedy. 

Well, now you are making a value judgment on what you think would have been the right thing for Rhaegar to have done -- not simply making an argument on what you think Rhaegar actually did. I explained why I think Rhaegar likely decided that he needed to enter into a polygamous marriage with Lyanna.

 

The first part of your answer seemed to attempt to counter my argument in that you claim prophecy demanded only a third child not a third legit child -- and that a child can be legitimized later. But I have posited that Rhaegar thought he needs the child to be a dragon from birth -- a dragon in every sense of the word. He does not know how long his father will live. He cannot control being able to legitimize Jon. The only way to be certain Jon will be a full dragon -- and the only way to be a full dragon from birth -- in Rhaegar's opinion (I think Rhaegar was wrong, but I am taking about his point of view) is to be married to the mother.

 

As to the second part of your post, as I noted above, that is not really addressing my point. Maybe Rhaegar should have set aside Elia. Maybe he did not agree that such a decision would be better for everyone. Maybe he was greedy. These are all judgment calls and value judgments. They don't address the question of whether Rhaegar married Lyanna -- only whether he was acting in everyone's best interest by marrying her. I am not taking a position here on whether his decision was the most appropriate under the circumstances -- just that the best evidence is that marrying Lyanna is what he did.

[Consigliere]

Has anyone read this? R + L = twins?

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jon-snow-theory-game-of-thrones_55dcbb45e4b04ae49704bcf3?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592&kvcommref=mostpopular

 

Huh?

 

So the evidence here boils down to: 1) Some guy on reddit offers a prediction for the opening scene of season 6 and 2) The actress playing Meera and Kit Harington have the same hairstyle or something. Sorry, not buying it.

[Ygrain]

 

That is why I said he is too greedy. 

You do not want to "dishonor" anybody, then eventually you dishonor and piss off everybody.

The best way to keep his true love is, give up everything (crown and family) and run off with Lyanna and disappear forever.  

Then he can enjoy his true love with all his heart and life. 

Or perhaps he just thought that the fate smiled on him and allowed him to save the world with the woman he loved.

 

 - Which leads us back to the question: would he have dishonoured the woman he loved when he possessed the means, albeit disputable, to do right by her?

[purple-eyes]

Well, now you are making a value judgment on what you think would have been the right thing for Rhaegar to have done -- not simply making an argument on what you think Rhaegar actually did. I explained why I think Rhaegar likely decided that he needed to enter into a polygamous marriage with Lyanna.

 

The first part of your answer seemed to attempt to counter my argument in that you claim prophecy demanded only a third child not a third legit child -- and that a child can be legitimized later. But I have posited that Rhaegar thought he needs the child to be a dragon from birth -- a dragon in every sense of the word. He does not know how long his father will live. He cannot control being able to legitimize Jon. The only way to be certain Jon will be a full dragon -- and the only way to be a full dragon from birth -- in Rhaegar's opinion (I think Rhaegar was wrong, but I am taking about his point of view) is to be married to the mother.

 

As to the second part of your post, as I noted above, that is not really addressing my point. Maybe Rhaegar should have set aside Elia. Maybe he did not agree that such a decision would be better for everyone. Maybe he was greedy. These are all judgment calls and value judgments. They don't address the question of whether Rhaegar married Lyanna -- only whether he was acting in everyone's best interest by marrying her. I am not taking a position here on whether his decision was the most appropriate under the circumstances -- just that the best evidence is that marrying Lyanna is what he did.

 

Fine. We agree to disagree.

Let us wait to see if R and L got married or not. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Fine. We agree to disagree.

Let us wait to see if R and L got married or not. 

Yes, we are back to agreeing to disagree.  :cheers:

 

Unfortunately, I think we have at least 9 months if not longer to wait to see whether a marriage happened or not.

[purple-eyes]

Or perhaps he just thought that the fate smiled on him and allowed him to save the world with the woman he loved.

 

 - Which leads us back to the question: would he have dishonoured the woman he loved when he possessed the means, albeit disputable, to do right by her?

 

Apparently the fate did not smile at him, the war-hammer smiled at him. 

He already dishonored her by doing what he did. If he wanted to make her maintain a good reputation, he should have set aside his wife and married Lyanna in KL publicly and openly with all the blessings from his and her family.

But he hid her in an abandoned tower for one year and made her pregnant before anybody knew anything about it.

Even there was a second marriage (very likely not to be recognized or welcomed), I do not think his woman's reputation was nice and shinning.  

[purple-eyes]

Yes, we are back to agreeing to disagree.  :cheers:

 

Unfortunately, I think we have at least 9 months if not longer to wait to see whether a marriage happened or not.

 

We will at least see the TOJ in the show next spring. 

If a polygamy marriage is as important as you said, it will be made in the show as well. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

We will at least see the TOJ in the show next spring. 

If a polygamy marriage is as important as you said, it will be made in the show as well. 

I expect it will be in the show -- but that is still at least 7 months away (maybe a bit longer if it is not in an early episode). I think we can agree, however, that if the HBO show includes information either way -- that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or were not married -- it is highly likely that the issue will be resolved in the same way in the books, right?

 

Unfortunately, given the rules on this board about discussing show spoilers in this sub-forum, it will be a mess to discuss with most of the discussion forced into spoiler boxes until people keep slipping and the information becomes so widely known that people give up on the spoiler boxes (at least that is my prediction on how season six will end up being discussed here -- assuming it comes out before book six).

[purple-eyes]

I expect it will be in the show -- but that is still at least 7 months away (maybe a bit longer if it is not in an early episode). I think we can agree, however, that if the HBO show includes information either way -- that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or were not married -- it is highly likely that the issue will be resolved in the same way in the books, right?

 

 

 

I agree with you. At least for the main plot line, the show and the book would remain roughly similar. 

[Alia of the knife]

My first time commenting... I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth on the idea that Lyanna had twins...Jon and Meera. When Lyanna died, they discovered twins...to keep them safe, and simplify their deception, Ned took Jon and Howland took Meera.  In the books, they are both the exact same age (15), their descriptions are similar, and Meera is the warrior to Jojen's seer character.
It is otherwise pretty strange that even though Ned and Howland were such good friends, Howland never visited Winterfell... even tho' Howland had a eligible daughter to offer to one of Ned's sons and an eligible son to offer to Ned's daughters.
 
This could add a whole new dimension, as well as a new plot line to the story. Meera is now abandoned in the North (since Jojen's death in the show... and his weakened condition in the books) with no real purpose in sight... AND she's the warrior of the two- it makes sense for her to head back to Castle Black... in time for Jon's resurrection by Melisandre (who has no reason to be there except to be available for just such a task).
 
NOW.. the kicker! Danaerys has already received the prophecy that she will have no more children... NOT a good situation for the foundation of a dynasty! BUT the Targaryen's are famous for marrying brother and sister to keep the blood lines pure... if Jon (Snow, Stark) Targaryen and Meera (Reed) Targaryen (2 of the three heads of the Dragon, with Danaerys) were to marry to restore the dynasty, THAT would make internal and external sense of the plot lines and the whole idea, pushed many times, that the Targaryens prefer to marry within the family!! This would also clean up the rather torn and poorly-created plot of Tyrion being the bastard son of the Mad king.
 
I think it has possibilities!

My thought was Wylla Manderly because I can't figure out why she feels the need to dye her hair.

Anyone dying their hair is usually hiding something.
That goes for Varys also though. The last guy shaving his head was Egg.

Not only Star Wars, but GRRM is very learned in history and myth and twins have a an almost magical aspect to them.

[Lord Varys]

The Twinslayer,

 

Ser Marston indeed seems to be that bastard knight, since he is supposed to have kin on Dragonstone, and is later revealed to be connected to the two Toms who become crucial in the series of events that leads to Aegon's reunion with Sunfyre - which is the core of Aegon's return to power. Without his dragon there wouldn't have been a plot to seize Dragonstone.

 

Aegon's state must have indeed be very pitiful by the point of his escape - either he had to be carried out of the castle, or he was incapable of coherent speech or thoughts. He later gives a hint how bad his addiction to milk of the poppy must have been since actually refuses to take even a sip of the drug after the new injuries he suffered during the conquest of Dragonstone (new burns and the shattered legs). One can only speculate, but my guess is that he was in a very bad shape when he arrived on the island, and only detoxed and got rid of his addiction because he couldn't get any milk of the poppy on the island. Back himself he most likely only became by the time he was reunited with Sunfyre.

 

Considering that Aegon II only became a sort of king again after he had taken Dragonstone, one assumes that he didn't give Marston a white cloak prior to that. But perhaps uniting him with Sunfyre would have been enough, hard to say. Just getting him to island wouldn't be, though, one assumes, since that doesn't mean he'll survive.

 

In general, KG candidates are drawn up and suggested to the king by the Lord Commander, but under Joffrey and Tommen that procedure wasn't followed - mainly because Jaime wasn't there and nobody wanted to wait for him. Kevan intended to do that, but Cersei convinces him to name Ser Robert.

 

I've tossed around the idea that Aerys may have made Ser Willem Darry a Kingsguard when he sent him to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys, then the new Prince of Dragonstone, but there is no evidence for that. Aerys could have made new Kingsguard since he could have known that Lewyn and Darry were dead. But then, Ser Willem could have been married which would made that impossible for the time being. But Viserys III could have named Willem to his Kingsguard - either on Dragonstone or later on in the Braavosi exile.

 

The dragonriding thing is also an important point there. During the dragon age the Kingsguard would effectively only have been the king's bodyguards while the king was on the ground. They would have protected him when necessary (i.e. in crowded places, during progresses on the ground, at court etc.) but not on dragonback. Not to mention that Criston Cole later actually endangers the king's life by having him ride to battle on his dragon.

 

As to Barristan: The man is too inflexible. He doesn't try to include Dany's bloodriders into the QG, which means he has no authority or jurisdiction over them. In ADwD we see him training his lads, and he hopes that some of them will make up Dany's Seven, but that time has not yet come - although it might come after the coming battle.

 

[Could you guys please stop discussing spoilers/speculations for the show's next season here. I don't intend to watch that while TWoW isn't out yet, and thus really don't want to know anything about it by accident.]

[The Twinslayer]

Well, now you are making a value judgment on what you think would have been the right thing for Rhaegar to have done -- not simply making an argument on what you think Rhaegar actually did. I explained why I think Rhaegar likely decided that he needed to enter into a polygamous marriage with Lyanna.

 

The first part of your answer seemed to attempt to counter my argument in that you claim prophecy demanded only a third child not a third legit child -- and that a child can be legitimized later. But I have posited that Rhaegar thought he needs the child to be a dragon from birth -- a dragon in every sense of the word. He does not know how long his father will live. He cannot control being able to legitimize Jon. The only way to be certain Jon will be a full dragon -- and the only way to be a full dragon from birth -- in Rhaegar's opinion (I think Rhaegar was wrong, but I am taking about his point of view) is to be married to the mother.

i don't think this is sufficient reason to think that Rhaegar married Lyanna.  He would have known that bastards can be dragons.  Bloodraven was the White Dragon, and Daemon Blackfyre was the Black Dragon (reversing the Targaryen colors, the same way LC Mormont reversed the Stark colors when he gave Longclaw to Jon).  There is no reason to believe that Rhaegar thought that the third head of the dragon had to be a Red Dragon.  

Or perhaps he just thought that the fate smiled on him and allowed him to save the world with the woman he loved.

 

 - Which leads us back to the question: would he have dishonoured the woman he loved when he possessed the means, albeit disputable, to do right by her?

Which brings us back to the question of why the Blackwoods built a statue to Missy (Bloodraven's mother) if being a royal mistress/mother to a royal bastard was such a dishonor?

The Twinslayer,

 

Ser Marston indeed seems to be that bastard knight, since he is supposed to have kin on Dragonstone, and is later revealed to be connected to the two Toms who become crucial in the series of events that leads to Aegon's reunion with Sunfyre - which is the core of Aegon's return to power. Without his dragon there wouldn't have been a plot to seize Dragonstone.

 

Aegon's state must have indeed be very pitiful by the point of his escape - either he had to be carried out of the castle, or he was incapable of coherent speech or thoughts. He later gives a hint how bad his addiction to milk of the poppy must have been since actually refuses to take even a sip of the drug after the new injuries he suffered during the conquest of Dragonstone (new burns and the shattered legs). One can only speculate, but my guess is that he was in a very bad shape when he arrived on the island, and only detoxed and got rid of his addiction because he couldn't get any milk of the poppy on the island. Back himself he most likely only became by the time he was reunited with Sunfyre.

 

Considering that Aegon II only became a sort of king again after he had taken Dragonstone, one assumes that he didn't give Marston a white cloak prior to that. But perhaps uniting him with Sunfyre would have been enough, hard to say. Just getting him to island wouldn't be, though, one assumes, since that doesn't mean he'll survive.

 

In general, KG candidates are drawn up and suggested to the king by the Lord Commander, but under Joffrey and Tommen that procedure wasn't followed - mainly because Jaime wasn't there and nobody wanted to wait for him. Kevan intended to do that, but Cersei convinces him to name Ser Robert.

 

I've tossed around the idea that Aerys may have made Ser Willem Darry a Kingsguard when he sent him to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys, then the new Prince of Dragonstone, but there is no evidence for that. Aerys could have made new Kingsguard since he could have known that Lewyn and Darry were dead. But then, Ser Willem could have been married which would made that impossible for the time being. But Viserys III could have named Willem to his Kingsguard - either on Dragonstone or later on in the Braavosi exile.

 

The dragonriding thing is also an important point there. During the dragon age the Kingsguard would effectively only have been the king's bodyguards while the king was on the ground. They would have protected him when necessary (i.e. in crowded places, during progresses on the ground, at court etc.) but not on dragonback. Not to mention that Criston Cole later actually endangers the king's life by having him ride to battle on his dragon.

 

As to Barristan: The man is too inflexible. He doesn't try to include Dany's bloodriders into the QG, which means he has no authority or jurisdiction over them. In ADwD we see him training his lads, and he hopes that some of them will make up Dany's Seven, but that time has not yet come - although it might come after the coming battle.

 

[Could you guys please stop discussing spoilers/speculations for the show's next season here. I don't intend to watch that while TWoW isn't out yet, and thus really don't want to know anything about it by accident.]

I agree that Marston Waters was probably the bastard knight who escorted Aegon II out of King's Landing when his Kingsguard were sent to guard his children.  My point was that that is an inference -- it is not explicitly stated in the text.  Unlike the fact that Larys gave the order for the Kingsguard to leave Aegon with no Kingsguard protectors -- that is explicitly stated in the text.  The reason I brought that up is that the poster I responded to was suggesting that we should infer -- with no textual basis -- that Aegon either gave the order or ratified it.  I disagree with that, because we know that Aegon was addled by milk of the poppy to the extent that he had a Regent and he was unable to give orders when King's Landing fell.

His Grace did not rise for the rest of the year.  Septons prayed for him, maesters attended him with potions and mild of the poppy, but Aegon slept nine hours of every ten, waking only long enough to take some meagre nourishment before he slept again.

and, right before Larys ordered the KGs to leave Aegon:

With the both the Lord Protector and the King's Hand absent, and King Aegon himself burned, bedridden, and lost in poppy dreams, it fell to his mother the Queen Dowager to see to the city's defenses.

In light of that, when the book says that "It was Lord Larys who decreed the fugitives should part company as well, so that even if one were taken the others might win free. Ser Rickard Thorne was commanded to deliver two-year-old Prince Maelor to Lord Hightower.  Princess Jaehaera, a sweet and simple girl of six, was put in the charge of Ser Willas Fell, who swore to bring her safely to Storm's End," there is no reason to think that Aegon was even consulted about that order, much less that he ratified it.  

[Ygrain]

 

Apparently the fate did not smile at him, the war-hammer smiled at him. 

He already dishonored her by doing what he did. If he wanted to make her maintain a good reputation, he should have set aside his wife and married Lyanna in KL publicly and openly with all the blessings from his and her family.

But he hid her in an abandoned tower for one year and made her pregnant before anybody knew anything about it.

Even there was a second marriage (very likely not to be recognized or welcomed), I do not think his woman's reputation was nice and shinning.  

So you maintain that a secret second marriage was as bad as impregnating her with a bastard right away? I find that hard to believe.

[addicted to snow]

My first time commenting... I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth on the idea that Lyanna had twins...Jon and Meera. When Lyanna died, they discovered twins...to keep them safe, and simplify their deception, Ned took Jon and Howland took Meera.  In the books, they are both the exact same age (15), their descriptions are similar, and Meera is the warrior to Jojen's seer character.

It is otherwise pretty strange that even though Ned and Howland were such good friends, Howland never visited Winterfell... even tho' Howland had a eligible daughter to offer to one of Ned's sons and an eligible son to offer to Ned's daughters.

 

This could add a whole new dimension, as well as a new plot line to the story. Meera is now abandoned in the North (since Jojen's death in the show... and his weakened condition in the books) with no real purpose in sight... AND she's the warrior of the two- it makes sense for her to head back to Castle Black... in time for Jon's resurrection by Melisandre (who has no reason to be there except to be available for just such a task).

 

NOW.. the kicker! Danaerys has already received the prophecy that she will have no more children... NOT a good situation for the foundation of a dynasty! BUT the Targaryen's are famous for marrying brother and sister to keep the blood lines pure... if Jon (Snow, Stark) Targaryen and Meera (Reed) Targaryen (2 of the three heads of the Dragon, with Danaerys) were to marry to restore the dynasty, THAT would make internal and external sense of the plot lines and the whole idea, pushed many times, that the Targaryens prefer to marry within the family!! This would also clean up the rather torn and poorly-created plot of Tyrion being the bastard son of the Mad king.

 

I think it has possibilities!

 

No need for Meera to go to Castle Black... Jon/Ghost is going to the Heart of Winter & to the Cave of Bran's in TWOW..

 

--

Sure, they could be twins, I don't know if that is where GRRM is going though... You are right for looking though because R+L=J is definitely over-simplified in one or more ways that he reader can't yet really fathom...

[purple-eyes]

So you maintain that a secret second marriage was as bad as impregnating her with a bastard right away? I find that hard to believe.

A secret second marriage could make lyanna feel better but could not help very much on their reputation, neither it will ganrantee the status of lyanna and jon firmly, while it would surely cause a high risk for rhaegar to be exiled or disinherited. It is safer to wait for elia to die and marry her and legimitize jon later when he has power.
Weighing the pros and cons, it does not seem to be a smart move.
But who knows, rhaegar is deep in love. He surely could do anything he can to please lyanna, including a marriage and a promise to make her queen. He was very likely to tell her: dear. My wife will die soon. Then you will be the sole wife and I will make our son as my heir. Now are you feel ok to run with me?