R+L=J v.155

[Bael's Bastard]

 

When they had dragons, probably. But even when they had dragons, still they failed on something like polygamy in Westeros. 

 

The Faith had no problem rebelling against Aenys and Maegor when they had dragons, so while this gets thrown out a lot, the dragons or lack of dragons didn't prevent or cause rebellion.

 

The fact is, the Targs practiced incest for almost a century and a half after the last dragons died, and unlike polygamy, we are explicitly told that incest is a monstrous sin to old gods and new, and the children of such unions abominations in sept and godswood alike.

 

Jaehaerys was the very next king after Maegor, and was perhaps the most beloved king ever, and his tons of children were all descended from he and his sister, at least one of his sons and daughters were married and produced his successor Viserys I.

 

There is zero in the books about polygamy being illegal to Targs, or the Targs ever accepting upon themselves a ban on polygamy. All we know is it wasn't common, but we already know that the World book explicitly says it was uncommon when Aegon I did it.

[sj4iy]

 

Even in real world, polygamy still exists, even in US. But having one marriage does make an additional marriage invalid. :)

 

Only because we have laws specifically forbidding it.  Westeros has no such thing.

[Lord Varys]

The idea that Aegon IV ever contemplated to allow his bastard to do something he himself never dared - taking another wife - makes little sense to me. Aegon may have encouraged Daemon's interest in Daenerys, in preparation for his ultimate plan to disinherit Daeron and naming Daemon his heir - which would have worked perfectly if he had married Daemon to Daenerys - but once he had that Tyroshi contract that plan was over. He may have told Daemon that he could later still marry Daenerys, but come on - he wouldn't have meant that. Especially not if he had wanted to put Daemon into a position to challenge Daeron. 'Daemon the Polygamist' couldn't have done that. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

I've planned a Rhaegar Re-Read since the start of the year but health decided to sabotage me (Maybe I was onto something!!!!). I'll try to see if by next month, I'll finally start (and finish the other posts I never got to).

Hope you feel better soon! 

[UnmaskedLurker]

The idea that Aegon IV ever contemplated to allow his bastard to do something he himself never dared - taking another wife - makes little sense to me. Aegon may have encouraged Daemon's interest in Daenerys, in preparation for his ultimate plan to disinherit Daeron and naming Daemon his heir - which would have worked perfectly if he had married Daemon to Daenerys - but once he had that Tyroshi contract that plan was over. He may have told Daemon that he could later still marry Daenerys, but come on - he wouldn't have meant that. Especially not if he had wanted to put Daemon into a position to challenge Daeron. 'Daemon the Polygamist' couldn't have done that. 

All that might or might not be true -- but not really relevant. First, we have no reason to believe that Aegon IV ever had any desire to take a second wife. Every indication is that he liked the arrangement as it was. But more important, if polygamy was clearly not allowed, then this discussion makes no sense. When Daemon raises the issue of taking a second wife, the answer would not be "no" -- the answer would be, "What are you talking about? Polygamy is illegal and your second marriage would not be recognized anyway." But that is not the discussion. Instead, Daemon wants permission from the King to ensure that he won't suffer any punishment for a second marriage -- and probably because Daenarys insisted on it. But I think it is clear from the Maegor example that punishment can be put upon a Targ who engages in an unsanctioned marriage -- but the second marriage is still a marriage. Otherwise, the entire discussion is pointless if polygamy simply is not permitted in any way.

[MtnLion]

You continue to be condescending and elitist, while offering very little yourself in the way of evidence beyond conjecture.

 

Apart from the fact that it absolutely does not prove that it was a legitimate child, how do you think he feels about the fact that this secret, "legitimate" union directly resulted in the deaths of his father and brother? How honorable is that?

 

 

I mean it's cute the way you fill in the blanks and insist it means Jon must be a king but it still doesn't account for the fact that Jon was never a king but an heir very far down the list.

I have provided evidence to you too many times to count.  You have never acknowledged any of it, leading me to the conclusion that you are willfully ignoring it.  But, perhaps you have something solid to say about the analysis of Ned's dream that I provide, see at the tower of joy, besides "cutesy". (Talking about being condescending and elitist.)

 

Ned's feelings about his brother, Brandon are pretty clear.  His wolf blood got him.  It is pretty irrational to ride through the capital demanding that the mad king's son come out and die.  At least Ned recognizes that Brandon was his own worst enemy. 

[purple-eyes]

All that might or might not be true -- but not really relevant. First, we have no reason to believe that Aegon IV ever had any desire to take a second wife. Every indication is that he liked the arrangement as it was. But more important, if polygamy was clearly not allowed, then this discussion makes no sense. When Daemon raises the issue of taking a second wife, the answer would not be "no" -- the answer would be, "What are you talking about? Polygamy is illegal and your second marriage would not be recognized anyway." But that is not the discussion. Instead, Daemon wants permission from the King to ensure that he won't suffer any punishment for a second marriage -- and probably because Daenarys insisted on it. But I think it is clear from the Maegor example that punishment can be put upon a Targ who engages in an unsanctioned marriage -- but the second marriage is still a marriage. Otherwise, the entire discussion is pointless if polygamy simply is not permitted in any way.

 

Of course polygamy is permitted, by power of dragon and power of the king. 

King Maegor's multiple wives were all called queens. 

If Rhaegar destroyed the faith by force and took the throne and became king, he can definitely try to make Lyanna a new queen.

But he did not, so even there was a secret marriage ceremony in front of a tree, it is not valid.

Why Daemon asked for permission of king? Why not he just had a secret wedding ceremony with Dany to make it as a "fact" (like you insisted)?

He is brave enough to raise a rebellion but he is not brave enough to face the punishment of the secret marriage?

Because it is invalid thus a waste of time and effort if he did it without the permission and support of the king. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Of course polygamy is permitted, by power of dragon and power of the king. 

King Maegor's multiple wives were all called queens. 

If Rhaegar destroyed the faith by force and took the throne and became king, he can definitely try to make Lyanna a new queen.

But he did not, so even there was a secret marriage ceremony in front of a tree, it is not valid.

Why Daemon asked for permission of king? Why not he just had a secret wedding ceremony with Dany to make it as a "fact" (like you insisted)?

He is brave enough to raise a rebellion but he is not brave enough to face the punishment of the secret marriage?

Because it is invalid thus a waste of time and effort if he did it without the permission and support of the king. 

Or maybe Dany insisted she would not go against her brother? And if he knew at the time he would rebel, he would believe he would become King and do what he wants -- but at that time he must not have felt "brave enough" to rebel. Those feelings must have developed later.

[purple-eyes]

Or maybe Dany insisted she would not go against her brother? And if he knew at the time he would rebel, he would believe he would become King and do what he wants -- but at that time he must not have felt "brave enough" to rebel. Those feelings must have developed later.

 

The funny thing about Daemon is, when he talked with Aegon IV about his possible marriage with Dany, he did not even get married at all. 

He married with Rohanne after the death of Aegon. 

The timeline is like this:

Aegon planned the betroth of Daemon and Rohanne-----Daemon was not happy-----Aegon said "it is ok, I will give Dany to you as second bride after you get married"------Then Daemon was OK------then after the death of Aegon, Daemon married with Rohanne-----then he asked for Dany. 

If Aegon is willing to give Dany as the second bride to Daemon, why didn't he marry or betroth them when they both were single?

It is a lot less trouble to dissolve a troth than set up a polygamous marriage. 

This sounds like Aegon is either cheating his son or intentionally raise future problem between Daeron and Daemon, or the Blackfyre people made up this story to romanticize and validate the rebellion. 

[Lord Varys]

Aegon the Unworthy was very interested in taking multiple wives, else there wouldn't have been this 'fake wedding' with Merry Meg - if it was a fake wedding (by that time he had long been married to his sister). Perhaps Prince Viserys later only proclaimed it had been a mummer dressed as a septon to downplay the scandal. This was still during the reign of Aegon III, after all.

 

Aegon was in love with all his nine mistresses, according to his own words. As a king he could have set aside his wife just as he easily as he would have married them - but apparently he could not. Aegon enjoyed humiliating Naerys, and wives would have worked much better than mistresses.

 

Anyway, Daemon Blackfyre would never have worked as a precedent for Rhaegar, even if he had had two wives. Neither would Maegor, because no one took Maegor as a precedent - Aerion naming his son Maegor was a scandal already - leaving only the Conqueror as a precedent.

[Bael's Bastard]

 
Of course polygamy is permitted, by power of dragon and power of the king. 
King Maegor's multiple wives were all called queens. 
If Rhaegar destroyed the faith by force and took the throne and became king, he can definitely try to make Lyanna a new queen.
But he did not, so even there was a secret marriage ceremony in front of a tree, it is not valid.
Why Daemon asked for permission of king? Why not he just had a secret wedding ceremony with Dany to make it as a "fact" (like you insisted)?
He is brave enough to raise a rebellion but he is not brave enough to face the punishment of the secret marriage?
Because it is invalid thus a waste of time and effort if he did it without the permission and support of the king. 

Maegor took a second wife before he was a king, and the best Aenys could do was exile him. The Faith rose up over the incestuous marriage of Aenys' children. All of Maegor's marriages were before the Faith militant was dismantled. Which was accomplished by incestuous Jaehaerys I, who also married his son and daughter. Incest is a great sin to the Faith. No such thing has been said about polygamy, no matter how opposed the Hightower was to it in the days of Maegor. Your claim that a second marriage would be invalid is baseless no matter how many times you repeat it. You are projecting European Christian reality onto Westeros where it doesn't exist. However uncommon, polygamy existed in Westeros in the last three centuries, and there is no example of a marriage or children of an additional wife being invalid or illegitimate.

[UnViserion]

 

 

I have provided evidence to you too many times to count.  You have never acknowledged any of it, leading me to the conclusion that you are willfully ignoring it.  But, perhaps you have something solid to say about the analysis of Ned's dream that I provide, see at the tower of joy, besides "cutesy". (Talking about being condescending and elitist.)

 

Ned's feelings about his brother, Brandon are pretty clear.  His wolf blood got him.  It is pretty irrational to ride through the capital demanding that the mad king's son come out and die.  At least Ned recognizes that Brandon was his own worst enemy. 

 

You pick and choose which bits of information are relevant and which aren't. You draw concrete conclusions out of the vaguest details and portray it as fact when it is, as I've said countless times, conjecture in it's purest form. But when someone else does it, nothing makes sense at all.

 

It's hypocritical and kills discussion. I thought this was a place to discuss theory, as it turns out this is just a place to discuss R+L=King Jon Targaryen, savior of the world and epic love child of Rhaegar & Lyanna :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Yea, it is pretty cute.

[MtnLion]

You pick and choose which bits of information are relevant and which aren't. You draw concrete conclusions out of the vaguest details and portray it as fact when it is, as I've said countless times, conjecture in it's purest form. But when someone else does it, nothing makes sense at all.
 
It's hypocritical and kills discussion. I thought this was a place to discuss theory, as it turns out this is just a place to discuss R+L=King Jon Targaryen, savior of the world and epic love child of Rhaegar & Lyanna :wub: :wub: :wub:
 
Yea, it is pretty cute.

 

 

 

This has always confused me. Can you explain why a younger child from a second marriage would have precident over a son born in the original marriage?

Sure, Jon even tells us, "By all of the laws he knows, a son comes before his uncle." Aegon is Rhaegar's son, he comes before his uncle Viserys. Jon is also Rhaegar's son. Jon was raised as a son of the Warden of the North, and he would have a sound foundation in the laws.

 

Ironically, the only time in recorded history when a Targaryen had 2 wives, Aegon's firstborn son King Aenys Targaryens firstborn son Aegon II Targaryen was passed over for his uncle, Maegor the Cruel.

You'll probably count that in Jon's favor since Maegor was the second born son of Aegon (like Jon was to Rhaegar) but it is a clear cut example of an Uncle taking precedence over the firstborn's firstborn. For the Iron Throne, no less.. not some castle like Karhold. No matter which way you cut it, it muddies the waters a bit on succession.

 

Grand Maester Gawen protested Maegor's coronation, stating that by all the laws of inheritance, the crown should pass to Aenys son Aegon.

There is an affirmation that Jon got it right.

 

That seems to show that you are cherry picking, but it backfired.

[Lord Varys]

Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway occurred without the presence, leave, or knowledge of the King, and Maegor got in trouble for that. Lord Hightower wanted that Alys be set aside, and the High Septon denounced it as sin and fornication, calling Alys 'that whore of Harroway'. This marriage did not exist as far as the Faith was concerned. Maegor himself acknowledged that the scriptures of the Faith forbid polygamy and rule lesser men in that matter, but not the blood of the dragon. Something that the Faith most likely never accepted considering that there were no further Targaryen polygamists. The Targaryens may have been able to break the back of the Faith on the incest issue (insofar as their own marriages were concerned, incest is still considered a mortal sin if the average guy practices it) but not on polygamy.

 

Even as king, Maegor could not get the Faith to condone or accept his many wives. The black brides affair seems to have been the main cause for the final uprising against his reign.

[purple-eyes]

Maegor took a second wife before he was a king, and the best Aenys could do was exile him. The Faith rose up over the incestuous marriage of Aenys' children. All of Maegor's marriages were before the Faith militant was dismantled. Which was accomplished by incestuous Jaehaerys I, who also married his son and daughter. Incest is a great sin to the Faith. No such thing has been said about polygamy, no matter how opposed the Hightower was to it in the days of Maegor. Your claim that a second marriage would be invalid is baseless no matter how many times you repeat it. You are projecting European Christian reality onto Westeros where it doesn't exist. However uncommon, polygamy existed in Westeros in the last three centuries, and there is no example of a marriage or children of an additional wife being invalid or illegitimate.

 

I think it is clear that if you get kicked out of this country for something you did, then it pretty much means you can not do it legally here. 

Maegor may take as many wives as he wants outside Westeros (like Craster?), that is his own business, but not in Westeros (unless he force it using dragon and force). 

Like you said, if it is legal, why was Maegor exiled? Yes, the High Septon is not happy with him, but can a royal prince be exiled for something legally recognized? Queen Visenya seemed OK with this punishment too. 

[UnViserion]

 

 

Read your Tower of Joy analysis from v. 119

 

All I can say is wow. That you can pull that much 'clarity' out of such vague dialogue is astounding.

 

It also doesn't account for the fact that nearly the entire time the KG were there, they weren't defending Rhaegar's heir. They could just as easily have been guarding a hostage. Could easily be interpreted as they were still following Aerys' orders. But no-- this is nonsense.. Jon had been a King for several hours.. or minutes.. or days or who knows how long. These KG-- such honorable folk, making sure Jon's life and claim is defended (from his Uncle )

 

But there's no room for other interpretations or theories. We've got you to bring clarity to the unknown.

[UnViserion]

That seems to show that you are cherry picking, but it backfired.

 

As long as you're the one providing the conjecture it's fine. We get it.

[MtnLion]

 

As long as you're the one providing the conjecture it's fine. We get it.

Conjecture, those are quotes.  I suppose if one wants to ignore quotes, they should call them conjecture. 

 

I don't suppose that you have had time to really analyze what is being conveyed in the dialog, but the analysis should help you along.  It helps a lot of people that don't just discard things out of hand, as nonsensical because they don't agree.  If you have anything constructive to say, in the future, I will be watching. 

 

KCDFTT

[UnViserion]

Conjecture, those are quotes.  I suppose if one wants to ignore quotes, they should call them conjecture. 

 

Nonsense. You prove my point with every post

 

In your post from v. 119, The blue lines are quotes, everything following them is your conjecture. That's all it is. If you really can't figure that out then we have nothing to talk about.

 

"Oswell Whent was down on one knee sharpening his blade. We can conclude that this is a subtle hint that he had already bent the knee to his new king"

 

I mean... what?! Are you kidding me? :lol:

 

Is that a direct quote from the text or is that just your interpretation?

 

[UnViserion]

 It helps a lot of people that don't just discard things out of hand, as nonsensical because they don't agree. 

 

I don't know what's more astounding. Your ability to pull concrete analysis from vague dialogue or the irony in this post.

 

Just...wow.