Refugee Crisis

[SeanF]

James Arryn, The Aegean Islands, as well as Sicily, Lampedusa, and Malta, are just the easiest points of entry into the EU.  Most people who arrive don't want to stay there, but to move on.

[Hayyoth]

 

Nope, again; I think the refugees fleeing from areas affected by these sorts of groups are trying to get out; I don't they're doing a particularly large amount of research on the comparative economic benefits of each country the ycould potentially immigrate to.

That's kind of patronizing. I'm sure the migrants have a pretty good idea about which countries they're likely to be able to settle in and they'll certainly know which ones are rich enough to offer them welfare and a shot at work. Also many of the migrants will likely have family and friends in the countires they want to travel to.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Wrong, I said that getting away from Isis was the primary motivation for the vast majority of refugees, and that for some of them a bordering country doesn't feel safe enough. I don't think I ever used the words "get them", either.

Ah, sorry. You said "get to" which implies pretty much the same thing, though.

 

Nope, again; I think the refugees fleeing from areas affected by these sorts of groups are trying to get out; I don't they're doing a particularly large amount of research on the comparative economic benefits of each country the ycould potentially immigrate to.

You can think what you want, though I don't really understand the initial part of this post: I wasn't talking about you.

[James Arryn]

James Arryn, The Aegean Islands, like Sicily, Lampedusa, and Malta, are just the easiest points of entry into the EU.  Most people who arrive don't want to stay there, but to move on.

Right, again showing that leaving Isis >>>> going anywhere for reasons other than non-Isis. Parsing their motives beyond that is, if you accept the fact that they ARE running for their lives, kinda absurd.

[Shryke]

Hmmm,.... so these migrants decided, while being on the run for their lives, that there's a good opportunity for economic exploitation of poor White West here ?

So obvious really. I mean of course they should have gone to China or Brazil if all they wanted to do is save their lives !

 

Fleeing to a country for a good opportunity for "economic exploitation of poor White West"? That's a rather silly sentiment.

But fleeing to a country with a good standard of living? Yeah, I think that's probably dead on.

 

Given how far it is to get to say Germany or Sweden or any western european country form where they are coming from and how many countries you have to pass through on the way that aren't in any way bad or war-torn, it's fairly obvious they are after something they see in those specific countries as desirable.

 

There is clearly goals at work beyond just "get away from ISIS" else they wouldn't be risking what seems to be potentially deadly trips to try and get further. And that should be obvious and expected. People don't just wanna gtfo of a warzone, they want a life. Somewhere they can rebuild.

 

Shit, just the fact that many are going further then like Turkey suggests they want something they don't think they can find in Turkey.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Right, again showing that leaving Isis >>>> going anywhere for reasons other than non-Isis. Parsing their motives beyond that is, if you accept the fact that they ARE running for their lives, kinda absurd.

No it doesn't. It just shows that they want entry into the EU.

 

Besides, a large amount of the people that normally arrive at Sicily, Lampedusa and these other waypoint locations have nothing to do with ISIS, but are from the third world in general. Many of them being from Sub Saharan Africa, South Asia, wherever.

[James Arryn]

You can't book a flight straight to Berlin like that, they won't let you on the plane... there is a reason for why human smuggling exists. As for why they aren't waiting out the storm, they probably Think they'll have a decent chance of getting through, alternatively they aren't even aware of how chaotic the refugee situation is now.

...or?

[SeanF]

I think it's very clear that once people have decided to leave the Middle East, or Africa, that they have definite preferences about where they want to go, depending on whether there are other members of their communities in a particular host nation, easy availability of jobs, ability to speak the language, levels of support from the host government etc.  It's clear that many people don't want to have their asylum claims processed in Hungary, for example, or to settle further East.

[James Arryn]

Ah, sorry. You said "get to" which implies pretty much the same thing, though.

Saying refugees are trying to 'get to' somewhere doesn't imply that Isis is/is not going to 'get them'. Get to just means intended destination, like I'm going to try and get to split or Belgrade in a few days.

[IamMe90]

I think it's very clear that once people have decided to leave the Middle East, or Africa, that they have definite preferences about where they want to go, depending on whether there are other members of their communities in a particular host nation, easy availability of jobs, ability to speak the language, levels of support from the host government etc.  It's clear that many people don't want to have their asylum claims processed in Hungary, for example, or to settle further East.

 

Sure. These preferences aren't predicated upon some calculated move to drain the welfare system of these countries though. 

[James Arryn]

That's kind of patronizing. I'm sure the migrants have a pretty good idea about which countries they're likely to be able to settle in and they'll certainly know which ones are rich enough to offer them welfare and a shot at work. Also many of the migrants will likely have family and friends in the countires they want to travel to.

You are citing migrant rationale (while explicitly calling them migrants) for refugees, though. You're aware that refugees are by definition migrants motivated primarily by physical danger, right?

[The King in Black]

 

Fleeing to a country for a good opportunity for "economic exploitation of poor White West"? That's a rather silly sentiment.

But fleeing to a country with a good standard of living? Yeah, I think that's probably dead on.

 

Given how far it is to get to say Germany or Sweden or any western european country form where they are coming from and how many countries you have to pass through on the way that aren't in any way bad or war-torn, it's fairly obvious they are after something they see in those specific countries as desirable.

 

There is clearly goals at work beyond just "get away from ISIS" else they wouldn't be risking what seems to be potentially deadly trips to try and get further. And that should be obvious and expected. People don't just wanna gtfo of a warzone, they want a life. Somewhere they can rebuild.

 

Shit, just the fact that many are going further then like Turkey suggests they want something they don't think they can find in Turkey.

 

What can be a possible solution to this  ? A pre-decided amount, a quota if you will, of refugees every country must take in ? And the refugees will have to settle there ? Even in this scenario, Western Europe ends up taking up  most of the refugees. Also with Hungarian PM saying things he's saying, I doubt majority of Eastern European majority Christian countries are going to be very happy about it.(although assuming majority of Eastern nations share the same sentiment is generalising )

[Shryke]

Sure. These preferences aren't predicated upon some calculated move to drain the welfare system of these countries though. 

 

No but they can very well be predicated on the existence of a good social safety net in the intended destination.

[IamMe90]

That's kind of patronizing. I'm sure the migrants have a pretty good idea about which countries they're likely to be able to settle in and they'll certainly know which ones are rich enough to offer them welfare and a shot at work. Also many of the migrants will likely have family and friends in the countires they want to travel to.

 

1) they aren't "migrants" ugh

2) I completely agree that they are probably going to factor in proximity to family and access to other people who speak their own language and

3) 2) in no way implies that these people are exploiting welfare in these countries. If you were a refugee fleeing from a brutal situation, wouldn't you try to go somewhere in which family existed? Would we have to condemn you for exploiting the welfare system because you had family in a country that had a welfare system in place? disgusting

[IamMe90]

 

No but they can very well be predicated on the existence of a good social safety net in the intended destination.

 

Yeah, I guess I don't necessarily disagree with that. I just take issue with the characterization of refugees (or should I say "migrants") as opportunistic leeches on the welfare system. It makes me kind of sick.

[Shryke]

 

What can be a posible solution to this then ? A pre-decided amount, a quota if you will, of refugees every country must take in ? And the refugees will have to settle there ? Even in this scenario, West Europe ends up taking up  most of the refugees. Also with Hungarian PM saying things he's saying, I doubt majority of Eastern European majority Christian countries are going to be very happy about it.

 

Hungary is doing more then talking. This shit was disturbing:

https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

If it's moved down the feed or you can't see it or whatever, it's a reporter following the refugees showing Hungarian forces (the police I believe) stopping the train with refugees on it, not letting anyone off and then removing all the international press so nobody is around to see what happens next.

[Hayyoth]

You are citing migrant rationale (while explicitly calling them migrants) for refugees, though. You're aware that refugees are by definition migrants motivated primarily by physical danger, right?

Refugees have a reponsibility to claim asylum in the first safe country they come to. Clearly that's not the case here so yes they're migrants. The refugee convention was not written to give persecuted people a shot at a better life in a rich country, it was written so folks wouldn't die.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Saying refugees are trying to 'get to' somewhere doesn't imply that Isis is/is not going to 'get them'. Get to just means intended destination, like I'm going to try and get to split or Belgrade in a few days.

 None of what has any bearing on what you said, unless you classify IS as refugees.

 

Here is what you wrote. Check the bolded part.

 

Also, many posters seem to think a lot of these refugees are kinda con artists trying to exploit a culpable Europe to get citizenship. They are running for their fucking lives, mostly. And of course they are trying to run to an area it seems less likely the IS will get to. A minority might be taking advantage of the situation, but why on earth would they be the focus of our concern?

Luckily, IS will not take over Turkey anytime soon. In fact, the moment Turkey decides that IS is more troublesome than the Kurds' nation building process is, then Caliph Al-Bagdadhi will shit himself.

[The King in Black]

 

Hungary is doing more then talking. This shit was disturbing:

https://twitter.com/jamesmatesitv?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

If it's moved down the feed or you can't see it or whatever, it's a reporter following the refugees showing Hungarian forces (the police I believe) stopping the train with refugees on it, not letting anyone off and then removing all the international press so nobody is around to see what happens next.

 

I'm not liking the direction things are going in at all

[Shryke]

 

Yeah, I guess I don't necessarily disagree with that. I just take issue with the characterization of refugees (or should I say "migrants") as opportunistic leeches on the welfare system. It makes me kind of sick.

 

Well yeah, that's kinda my whole point. The framing of it as "leaches" or "moochers" is bullshit but that doesn't mean people don't want to get to a country they see as prosperous and wealthy and full of opportunity and support. Like, who wouldn't?

 

The attempt to reframe said desire as a vice is sickening, though pretty standard bullshit you see all the time directed towards people who are from said countries.