[SPOILERS] The Fifth Season by NK Jemisin

[.H.]

Lots of food for thought, .H.
 
thanks for adding some crucial textual evidence.

Thanks, I pretty sure we are mislead about a whole bunch of stuff, because the Tablets are certainly manipulated to support what the Guadians are currently doing to the orogenes.

[spoiler]

[obscured] the icewhite eyes, the ashblow hair, the filtering nose, the sharpened teeth, the salt-split tongue.
—Tablet Two, “The Incomplete Truth,” verse eight

[obscured] those who would take the earth too closely unto themselves. They are not masters of themselves; allow them no mastery of others.
—Tablet Two, “The Incomplete Truth,” verse nine

Clearly manipulative as to remove the exact words to clarify what was being said in each of these.

Alabaster says:

There’s a reason Tablet Two is so damaged: someone, somewhere back in time, decided that it wasn’t important or was wrong, and didn’t bother to take care of it. Or maybe they even deliberately tried to obliterate it, which is why so many of the early copies are damaged in exactly the same way.

The stone eater is folly made flesh. Learn the lesson of its creation, and beware its gifts.
—Tablet Two, “The Incomplete Truth,” verse seven

I initially thought that Stone Eaters were actually aliens. I am rethinking this now. Perhaps they were made to harness and control the obelisks?
[/spoiler]

[Xray the Enforcer]

I started a targeted re-read based on some of the questions and the points brought up in this thread. It's been fun, finding small clues scattered here and there. Also, more questions:

 

[spoiler] Alabaster, at some point in the past, got rid of his Guardian. Do we ever find out what happened to her? For some reason, I have it in my head that she was somehow encased in a rock -- that basically the cooperation between Stone Eaters and Alabaster dates from that time, and that he owes them a debt. That's why the Stone Eater saved him from the Guardians on Meov.

 

There's also the question of what happened to the other potential ten-ringer children. Yes, some ended up node maintainers (and not probably because they couldn't control their orogeny, but because 1) rebellious or 2) you never want more than one or possibly two ten-ringers at any one time -- too powerful and therefore dangerous). What happened to the others? Jemisin hints at it, but I confess I do not know where she was going with it.

[/spoiler]

[.H.]

I started a targeted re-read based on some of the questions and the points brought up in this thread. It's been fun, finding small clues scattered here and there. Also, more questions:
 
[spoiler] Alabaster, at some point in the past, got rid of his Guardian. Do we ever find out what happened to her? For some reason, I have it in my head that she was somehow encased in a rock -- that basically the cooperation between Stone Eaters and Alabaster dates from that time, and that he owes them a debt. That's why the Stone Eater saved him from the Guardians on Meov.
 
There's also the question of what happened to the other potential ten-ringer children. Yes, some ended up node maintainers (and not probably because they couldn't control their orogeny, but because 1) rebellious or 2) you never want more than one or possibly two ten-ringers at any one time -- too powerful and therefore dangerous). What happened to the others? Jemisin hints at it, but I confess I do not know where she was going with it.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Alabaster says he made sure his Guardian "is no longer a threat." Syen asks if he killed her and he replies "No. Do I look stupid?"

It would seem that you're right he imprisoned her somewhere, because later, when the Guardian approaches them, after Syen raises the obelisk:

The Guardian smiles, suddenly. "Guardian Leshet sends her regards, Alabaster."
While Syenite is still trying to parse this, and the fact that Alabaster is about to fight a Guardian, Alabaster stiffens all over. "You found her?"
"Of course. We must talk of what you did to her. Soon."

Chances are, they were tipped off about Alabaster's treachery by Leshet, so the mission is cover to send Alabaster to a place where they can kill him?

There is also this:

"Groups. Factions, in some conflict we know nothing about and have only blundered into through sheer dumb luck."
"Factions of Guardians?"
He snorts derisively. "You say that like it’s impossible. Do all roggas have the same goals, Syen? Do all stills? Even the stone eaters probably have their spats with one another."

It seems plausible that some of the Guardians actually wanted Syen and Alabaster to raise the Obelisk and others that don't.

On the children, I think they must have a use for all of them, otherwise, why breed them? Alabaster is pretty remiss in the need to breed, so it is simply at the request of the Guardians. Sure, some may end up being too much to handle, but the need for them must be real. I'm pretty sure they kill the ones that "don't work out" though, only really plausible thing I can think of.
[/spoiler]

OK, some things were still on my mind, but I wasn't home most of the weekend, so now that I have time to look over this again, there are a few things I suspected that I can confirm:

[spoiler]First thing is why does the Sanze Empire last so many Seasons? Well, I am pretty sure that the Sanze are directly descended from Guardians. This is why the Sanze Empire lasts so long, in fact, it's seems plausible that before the Sanze Empire, there may not really have been anything called a Guardian.

"Tell them they can be great someday, like us. Tell them they belong among us, no matter how we treat them. Tell them they must earn the respect which everyone else receives by default. Tell them there is a standard for acceptance; that standard is simply perfection. Kill those who scoff at these contradictions, and tell the rest that the dead deserved annihilation for their weakness and doubt. Then they’ll break themselves trying for what they’ll never achieve."
—Erlsset, twenty-third emperor of the Sanzed Equatorial Affiliation, in the thirteenth year of the Season of Teeth. Comment recorded at a party, shortly before the founding of the Fulcrum.

I think they realized they could control the orogenes and use them to perpetuate the life of their empire.

I still need to think about more stuff, like the interconnection of the pit, the Guardians and how that relates to stone eaters, orogenes and the obelisks.
[/spoiler]

[Xray the Enforcer]

I hear you -- but there was just one interlude with Syenite and Alabaster right before

 

[spoiler] the interaction with the Guardian at Allia

 

"most of my children have the potential to wear ten rings."

 

[...]what if [the fulcrum] has some way to force those poor damaged children to listen, and to spit back what they listen to, like some kind of living telegraph receivers? [...]

 

there were no other ten-ringers in the Fulcrum. Rogga children are sent to the nodes only if they can't control themselves. Aren't they?

Oh.

No.

She decides not to mention the epiphany aloud.[/spoiler]

 

That seems to suggest some other fate, but I'm not sure what it is?

[SkynJay]

I hear you -- but there was just one interlude with Syenite and Alabaster right before
 
[spoiler] the interaction with the Guardian at Allia
 
"most of my children have the potential to wear ten rings."
 
[...]what if [the fulcrum] has some way to force those poor damaged children to listen, and to spit back what they listen to, like some kind of living telegraph receivers? [...]
 
there were no other ten-ringers in the Fulcrum. Rogga children are sent to the nodes only if they can't control themselves. Aren't they?
Oh.
No.
She decides not to mention the epiphany aloud.[/spoiler]
 
That seems to suggest some other fate, but I'm not sure what it is?

I guess when I read that I assumed that there is no other fate. Only false hope.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Entirely possible. (in fact, likely) Although I wonder if they have something to do with

 

[spoiler] Guardian hierarchy, or something to do with the socket. [/spoiler]

[.H.]

I hear you -- but there was just one interlude with Syenite and Alabaster right before
 
[spoiler] the interaction with the Guardian at Allia
 
"most of my children have the potential to wear ten rings."
 
[...]what if [the fulcrum] has some way to force those poor damaged children to listen, and to spit back what they listen to, like some kind of living telegraph receivers? [...]
 
there were no other ten-ringers in the Fulcrum. Rogga children are sent to the nodes only if they can't control themselves. Aren't they?
Oh.
No.
She decides not to mention the epiphany aloud.[/spoiler]
 
That seems to suggest some other fate, but I'm not sure what it is?

I thought she was remembering what happened to

[spoiler]Crack, how she disappeared, presumably dead.

So, I am still thinking of the relationship between the Guardians, the orogenes and the stone eaters. Then there is the relationship between the orogenes, the stone eaters, the obelisks and the pit.

My theory, based on really nothing, is that the obelisk's were made to focus the orogene's powers, so to better control the effects of the Seasons. For some reason, this involves the stone eaters. Perhaps they need a symbiotic relationship with an orogene? This might be why Antimony needs Alabaster and why Hoa needs Essun. This might also be why the obelisks follow orogenes they feel can use them?

The Guardians must know this, which is why they are trying to stop Syen, because they want to control the orogenes to their own ends?[/spoiler]

I really hope the next book comes out next year though.

[AncalagonTheBlack]

New York Times’ 100 Notable Books of 2015 includes N.K. Jemisin’s The Fifth Season. It's the only fantasy book to make the list.

[HexMachina]

Here is a chapter from The Fifth Season, that didn't make the cut (and is non-canonical) fro Alabaster's POV 

http://nkjemisin.com/2015/11/tfs-snippet/#more-2620

 

eta: while I enjoyed reading that, I think ultimately Jemisin made the right call in cutting it and making this thematically Essun's story. Not to mention of course that the chapter feels pretty spoilery...
 

[Maia]

I have finally read it and I liked it very much. People didn't lie, though, when they said that it doesn't have a proper ending as such, not even as much as first books of a series usually do! Things very much end mid-action and mid-mystery. Second person chapters didn't jar me at all, I thought they worked very well, as did the eventual reveal of the person from whose PoV they were.

Spoilers:

I very quickly guessed that Damaya, Syenite and Essun were the same person. I think that I noticed that they were all described as Somidlatters, and Essun clearly was an origene with a mysterious past, so it all fit.

The one thing that didn't quite work for me was that the evilness of the oppressive regime seemed  somewhat implausibly exaggerated (reminiscent of  Baru Cormorant). I mean, we have seen nothing else technology-wise, that would have made the ability to keep the node operators alive in coma for years believable in this world. It is just there to make the Sanzed empire more evil/nod at Le Guin's "Omelas" story. Ditto the obvious villainous stupidity of using _all_ the kids of their best origene (or any many-ringed one, really) that way, instead of creating a few possible hostages to keep him in line. And then letting him move around the land and operate without a Guardian, no less.  Oh, and of course they don't have the much simpler than the life-support technology above artificial insemination (of the kind used in animal husbandry), so that the other traditional mainstay of oppression - forced sex for obligatory procreation, can be included.  

Beyond that, I am sorry to say, that so far the sheer destructiveness of our main character and Alabaster doesn't speak well for the notion that prejudice  against origenes is irrational, or that some form of control isn't necessary. Or that holding origenes to  higher standards  than normals is wrong, given the incomparably more disastrous consequences of failures of their their temper, judgement, etc.

Yes, the protagonist and Alabaster were badly abused, they were attacked, etc., etc, but it is a very hard world where many people can find themselves in desperate situations with little warning. Killing  tens of thousands or millions of people respectively - including, sometimes, those who tried to help, still isn't in the least acceptable, IMHO. Despite the hint that Alabaster had some rational goal behind his destruction  of the world, I still find his actions utterly monstrous.

Oh, and BTW the happy, free, accepting pirates of Moev, whom we are supposed to sympathize with, must have put quite a few people in desperate straits, survival-wise, when they didn't kill them outright. They are no less parasites than Sanze, it is just that the people that they prey on are faceless and unrepresented in the story.

Now, speaking of control, there is clearly something very wrong with the Guardians. Unfortunately so, as origenes can't shut each other down as quickly and reliably, should the need  arise. And yet, aren't they abused too, in the process of their  training and enhancement? Do they have any more choice than Fulcrum origenes in their vocation? I hope that we get a closer look at their side of it all in the future.

Having said that, I absolutely don't believe that the myth that origenes had anything to do with the current shape of that world (before Alabaster, that is) is actually true. Whether it is a future/parallel Earth or something else, it seems clear that origeny is an adaptation to the constantly seismically active world, not the other way round, just as the "sessing" ability that everybody there has.

 

[First of My Name]

I'll receive this book on Tuesday, looking forward to reading it.

[First of My Name]

I'm reading this right now and loving it. The prose is really good and the mystery is great.

I guessed well in advance that Damaya and Syenite were the same person, even before Syen started referencing things that appeared in Damaya's story, but there's plenty of other plot twists to keep my on my toes.

[Iskaral Pust]

I read this last week and really enjoyed it. I don't think I can edit spoiler text from the tapatalk app so I'll have to come back another day to contribute my speculation.

(Why do we have a thread with just about every post containing spoiler tags? Why not just change the thread title to a spoiler thread?)

[HexMachina]

I read this last week and really enjoyed it. I don't think I can edit spoiler text from the tapatalk app so I'll have to come back another day to contribute my speculation.

 

(Why do we have a thread with just about every post containing spoiler tags? Why not just change the thread title to a spoiler thread?)

 

Most of the comments were also within a month of its release  (regarding the spoiler thing) 

[Xray the Enforcer]

Most of the comments were also within a month of its release  (regarding the spoiler thing) 

Yep. And we lost a bunch of discussion when we lost the October database (including my edit that there are spoilers in the thread -- will fix that). But yes, one can post spoilers without putting them under the tag now.

[First of My Name]

I just finished it, really good book. The final chapter made me very eager for the sequel (which, according to Amazon, will be out in August 2016 and called 'The Obelisk Gate.')

One question though - at the end, Alabaster tells Essun he'll never forgive her for killing Coru. But didn't he basically make her promise to kill him? I'm not sure why he feels this way when it was his own wish.

 

[.H.]

I just finished it, really good book. The final chapter made me very eager for the sequel (which, according to Amazon, will be out in August 2016 and called 'The Obelisk Gate.')

One question though - at the end, Alabaster tells Essun he'll never forgive her for killing Coru. But didn't he basically make her promise to kill him? I'm not sure why he feels this way when it was his own wish.

Well, yeah, he said to her:

“Syen,” he says. His voice is strained. With fear, or something else? “Promise me you won’t let them take Coru. No matter what.”

I think he knows full well what he is asking for, but really he doesn't want her to kill Coru, he just wants his child to not be captured by the Guardians. 

“I understand why you killed Corundum,” Alabaster says, very softly. And then, while you sway in your crouch, literally reeling from the blow of that sentence, he finishes you. “But I’ll never forgive you for doing it.”

I think it is deeper though than just the fact that she killed Coru.  He knows full well that is the Syen's inability to simply live on the island, her boredom that draws her back to Allia, is what sows the seeds that end with her having to kill Coru.  If she could have just been content with the life she had there, the Guardians would probably never have found them and Coru would still be alive.  In other words, it's her fault Coru had to be killed.  She killed him long before that final confrontation.  She killed him by being unable to live the safe life on the island.

[First of My Name]

 

Well, yeah, he said to her:

 

I think he knows full well what he is asking for, but really he doesn't want her to kill Coru, he just wants his child to not be captured by the Guardians. 

 

I think it is deeper though than just the fact that she killed Coru.  He knows full well that is the Syen's inability to simply live on the island, her boredom that draws her back to Allia, is what sows the seeds that end with her having to kill Coru.  If she could have just been content with the life she had there, the Guardians would probably never have found them and Coru would still be alive.  In other words, it's her fault Coru had to be killed.  She killed him long before that final confrontation.  She killed him by being unable to live the safe life on the island.

Your explanation makes a lot of sense, I hadn't connected it with Syen being responsible for the Guardians' attack. Thanks.

[.H.]

Your explanation makes a lot of sense, I hadn't connected it with Syen being responsible for the Guardians' attack. Thanks.

At least that's how I read it.  I could be wrong that she alerts the Guardians to their presence (and/or the existence of the island), but that was how it seemed to me.

One thing I am still unable to really reconcile is what the Stone Eaters really are.  My hunch is that they were the ancient's (i.e. the ones who actually destroyed the moon) first attempt to control the Seasons.  Second attempt was probably the obelisks.  Orogene's were possibly the third.  Last, the Guardians were made to subjugate orogenes, not that I really understood too well the whole socket part.

I think a clue on the socket is how it's said that Father Earth speaking to them (the Guardians) is a common delusion.  To me that said, something is talking to them, just it being Father Earth is a delusion.  What is it that is talking to them then?  That I haven't puzzled out yet.

[Xray the Enforcer]

H -- that's how I saw Syen's role as well. She couldn't leave well enough alone, and that's how the Guardians found them.