Heresy 180

[Lord Ravenstark]

Dany's desire for the iron throne is only entitlement by modern standards (and even then that's debateable), else you can make a pretty solid argument that every noble we meet is pretty much as entitled as her.

By this criteria, Stannis is entitled for waging his war for succession. Tyrion is entitled for unleashing Aegon on the small chance he may end up with Casterly Rock. Sansa is entitled for bringing the Vale into the war for reclaiming Winterfell. Robb was entitled for wanting to retake the North from the the Iron Born.

Why are we judging Dany so harshly?

No need to worry, we are pretty egalitarian when judging the characters. It just happens Dany is the current subject, the others will have their time.

[MaesterSam]

Not that this is really in any way related to your post, but it did set my mind to spinning. There are an awful lot of animals portrayed as having wings or flying that really shouldn't. Bran is a winged wolf. Sansa escapes from KL as a wolf with bat wings. Mormont asked Jon if his horse had wings and Dany imagines wings on her silver. Now you're mentioning the Winged Knight and wondering how it goes in. Another funny thing, Sweet Robin seems quite obsessed with flying, or at the very least making others fly.  Is he destined to fly as well?

I definitely think there is more to Sweetrobin than meets the eye. Here's why:

He is The Last Falcon, of the ancient Arryn line said to be descended from Hugor of the Hill, the founder of the Faith of the Seven (and his bride with eyes like deep blue pools...). So far, this faith seems less interesting than, say, the Old Gods or R'hllor, but chances are that its followers will benefit from the resurgence of magic as well. 

According to the WB, the first Artys Arryn (the winged knight) married a COTF woman, who gave him his son and heir. So the Arryns also have COTF blood. If the tales of the winged knight are to be believed and he indeed rode a giant falcon, this would suggest warging abilities of some kind. (More likely than him riding a falcon is that he had the ability to control them. Details likely got exaggerated, much like the claim that Robb turned into a wolf in his battles, when in reality he simply used Grey Wind against his enemies). 

We know from Leaf that "the chosen ones are not robust, and their years on this earth are few". Like Bran and Jojen, Sweetrobin is definitely not robust.

And then there are the shaking spells. Perhaps he really has some illness, or.... perhaps these seizures are similar to what Jojen experiences when he has his visions. There is no strong evidence of Sweetrobin having visions, but there is tangential support. For example, he claims to hear Marillion singing even after he is dead. This could be something he saw in a vision of the past, but doesn't understand. He also shares his mother's paranoia and fear of everyone and everything- but it turns out, this fear is justified. They are in danger from many people who want to take control of the Vale. So perhaps he dreamed it? It's even possible that Lysa's paranoia was started or fueled by her son's (justified) fears. The boy is well aware that Harry wants to replace him as Lord of the Vale; and it turns out this is true. How could a 7-year old know this? Lysa tried her best to shield him from any upsetting news, so it doesn't seem as though she would have put this idea in his head. Interestingly, maester Colemon gives him Dreamwine to help him sleep, just like Luwin does for Bran.

Oh, and he ruled the Vale from the Eyrie's weirwood throne.

 

And as a side note... I was just rereading some of Sansa's Vale chapters, and when she has her (fake?) memory of being kissed by the Hound.. this happens right as Sweetrobin unexpectedly kisses her, the morning they leave the Eyrie. Coincidence?

 "As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak." 

[Lord Ravenstark]

I'm liking this. And Martin is keeping up his references on the Vale's winged knight with some of the stuff in Alayne's Winds chapter. 

On Dany--the whole dream of "wake the dragon" when she opens the red door and flies. In that case, one could argue the people with the white swords are warning her to run faster so the dragon doesn't catch her. And the experience of flight is wonderful. But the sprouting of wings is very painful and leaves her with the taste of ashes in her mouth. Everything is consumed.

Bran's flying experience is rather less painful, though HOW he got to this state was very painful. And he does end up with the last of blood in his mouth. And Robin, the weak and stunted, feels powerful just at the thought of the Winged Knight. 

So--is all of this related?

So, a winged knight lost hero and a dragon promised prince? The dragon version seems like the one tacked on. . . though that may just be prejudice. But Dany's flying leaves her with ashes in her mouth and all consumed. Bran's--he connects with things. . .An excellent question.

Quote: Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

"You are the winged wolf, Bran," said Jojen. "I wasn't sure when we first came, but now I am. The crow sent us here to break your chains." Clash, Bran IV. 

"A" winged wolf to "the" winged wolf--could work either way as fulfilling a role or as just being a metaphor.  

Funny, he claims here that the crow sent him. But wasn't his father that sent him? Or had him a green dream before that?

It is very confusing. Who is this crow? The 3EC? Bloodraven? Brynden Rivers? Is Bloodraven still Brynden Rivers? When he talk about his life, he makes it sound as if it was a distant thing, not only due to the passing of time but also as if it didn't belong to him anymore.

If this crow sent him, what happened to his father? Was he aware of that? And if, in fact, the crow sent him, how was that? Meera is clear that not crows nor ravens go to the Greywatch, the only possible way is that it was through a green dream. And if it was so, how did the crow used it as message post? Green dreams are gifts of the old gods, so the crow is an old god? Is it that the Greenseer is, in fact, full-fledged god? I wish we had more information on the nature of the old gods. Are they animist… or are they, in fact, deist? We know they are everywhere, as per the woodswitch in Varamyr's brother death, although Osha seems to believe they are only the gods of wood. Confirming the woodswitch, we have the Greenseer who tells Bran will go beyond the trees themselves. It is very, very important. The nature of the gods is that they are nature, and they are everywhere. Creation and creator are one, and thus, even the created, men or singer, is capable of tapping the godhood, given the predisposition (Greenseer's blood). Back to the gream dream message, if the crow told Jojen Bran was a winged wolf, what does it really implicate? Bloodraven is the LAST greenseer, it means there can't be another after him, and perhaps will not. Bran is supposed to go beyond the trees, the domain of the greenseers, perhaps it means that greenseers are not gods after all, but that also means Bran is going further than being a greenseer. Does that mean he is going to become a god himself? It is really imprecise, impossible to make a good guess.

Back to deism in old gods, I wonder, what would the creator-creation suddenly decide it is time to act, as it is clear that no matter what happens in the world, it is just a part of them and they are used to see the time pass. If the Other "threat" is so important, then maybe the Others are far more unnatural than previously believed.

Of course, the existence of a "last" greenseer, coupled with the constant warning that the old races are going to fade, means that a change in the world, an epoch unlike any other men have ever seen, is about to happen.

A winged wolf, creature that by very concept means something not entirely new neither entirely unchanged, as they do have wolves and they do have winged creatures, but no winged wolf. It is a change but not a complete transformation. If ice preserves and fire consumes, transform, what is the winged wolf, that is neither full change not full permanence?

If the old gods are truly deist, creator and creation in one, what does the change represent to them? Why would they call upon their faithful, even though they could call upon anyone, to take a broken boy and unbound him? In fact, the question would be the same even if they were just animist gods, but the connotation would be simply different. They are still interested in something, why could possibly catch the attention of the gods?

In a more meta interpretation, Bran is, by far, the most unchanged storyline compared to the other characters, who were greatly expanded when they number of books grew in size. I wonder what does it really means.

[FC_Lymond]

 

I definitely think there is more to Sweetrobin than meets the eye. Here's why:

He is The Last Falcon, of the ancient Arryn line said to be descended from Hugor of the Hill, the founder of the Faith of the Seven (and his bride with eyes like deep blue pools...). So far, this faith seems less interesting than, say, the Old Gods or R'hllor, but chances are that its followers will benefit from the resurgence of magic as well. 

According to the WB, the first Artys Arryn (the winged knight) married a COTF woman, who gave him his son and heir. So the Arryns also have COTF blood. If the tales of the winged knight are to be believed and he indeed rode a giant falcon, this would suggest warging abilities of some kind. (More likely than him riding a falcon is that he had the ability to control them. Details likely got exaggerated, much like the claim that Robb turned into a wolf in his battles, when in reality he simply used Grey Wind against his enemies). 

We know from Leaf that "the chosen ones are not robust, and their years on this earth are few". Like Bran and Jojen, Sweetrobin is definitely not robust.

And then there are the shaking spells. Perhaps he really has some illness, or.... perhaps these seizures are similar to what Jojen experiences when he has his visions. There is no strong evidence of Sweetrobin having visions, but there is tangential support. For example, he claims to hear Marillion singing even after he is dead. This could be something he saw in a vision of the past, but doesn't understand. He also shares his mother's paranoia and fear of everyone and everything- but it turns out, this fear is justified. They are in danger from many people who want to take control of the Vale. So perhaps he dreamed it? It's even possible that Lysa's paranoia was started or fueled by her son's (justified) fears. The boy is well aware that Harry wants to replace him as Lord of the Vale; and it turns out this is true. How could a 7-year old know this? Lysa tried her best to shield him from any upsetting news, so it doesn't seem as though she would have put this idea in his head. Interestingly, maester Colemon gives him Dreamwine to help him sleep, just like Luwin does for Bran.

Oh, and he ruled the Vale from the Eyrie's weirwood throne.

 

And as a side note... I was just rereading some of Sansa's Vale chapters, and when she has her (fake?) memory of being kissed by the Hound.. this happens right as Sweetrobin unexpectedly kisses her, the morning they leave the Eyrie. Coincidence?

Cool stuff

I like hearing new ideas

[Black Crow]

 

Funny, he claims here that the crow sent him. But wasn't his father that sent him? Or had him a green dream before that?

It is very confusing. Who is this crow? The 3EC? Bloodraven? Brynden Rivers? Is Bloodraven still Brynden Rivers? When he talk about his life, he makes it sound as if it was a distant thing, not only due to the passing of time but also as if it didn't belong to him anymore.

If this crow sent him, what happened to his father? Was he aware of that? And if, in fact, the crow sent him, how was that? Meera is clear that not crows nor ravens go to the Greywatch, the only possible way is that it was through a green dream. And if it was so, how did the crow used it as message post? Green dreams are gifts of the old gods, so the crow is an old god? Is it that the Greenseer is, in fact, full-fledged god? 

Good questions all. I think that we can dismiss Howland Reed's sending the Bobsey Twins with the intention of leading Bran into dark places. There are various ways we can interpret this without tying ourselves in knots: it may be that the visit was exactly what it said on the tin and that Howland Reed simply sent them to affirm their allegiance, but was unaware of the secret agenda; or, he knew of the true purpose and offered the renewal of the oath as a cover story; or, he knew nothing about it but his name was invoked cos they could hardly come into the hall and announce that Bran is the Winged Wolf and we've come to take him beyond the Wall.

As to the crow, we've discussed before how there may not be a crow at all, but rather that's the avatar used by those who come to people in dreams, just as real crows carry messages in the waking world.

I think therefore that what we have here is Jojen being visited by a "crow" in a green dream and being told to seek out the Winged Wolf of prophecy which Bloodraven for one has been waiting for so long. Jojen, perhaps not unnaturally, is dubious at first but on coming into Bran's presence he is convinced that he is indeed the Winged Wolf.

[Black Crow]

And there, perhaps might be an explanation for Roose Bolton chucking the book in the fire. If it did indeed contain lost Westerosi prophecies including the Winged Wolf, he may have tossed it aside not because it contained anything dangerous per se, but rather because if the Starks were wiped out then the prophecy wasn't going to come to pass and the North was up for grabs.

[MaesterSam]

Good questions all. I think that we can dismiss Howland Reed's sending the Bobsey Twins with the intention of leading Bran into dark places. There are various ways we can interpret this without tying ourselves in knots: it may be that the visit was exactly what it said on the tin and that Howland Reed simply sent them to affirm their allegiance, but was unaware of the secret agenda; or, he knew of the true purpose and offered the renewal of the oath as a cover story; or, he knew nothing about it but his name was invoked cos they could hardly come into the hall and announce that Bran is the Winged Wolf and we've come to take him beyond the Wall.

As to the crow, we've discussed before how there may not be a crow at all, but rather that's the avatar used by those who come to people in dreams, just as real crows carry messages in the waking world.

I think therefore that what we have here is Jojen being visited by a "crow" in a green dream and being told to seek out the Winged Wolf of prophecy which Bloodraven for one has been waiting for so long. Jojen, perhaps not unnaturally, is dubious at first but on coming into Bran's presence he is convinced that he is indeed the Winged Wolf.

So are you suggesting that anytime someone appears in someone else's dreams (whether it be BR, Bran, or another greenseer/sorcerer) they appear as a three-eyed crow? So that the crow doesn't represent any one person in real life?

On a related note, I've been wondering about Rickon. Why can't he be the winged wolf? What is it that makes Jojen decide it's Bran and not Rickon? They are both wargs/wolves, "trapped" in Winterfell's grey stones. Bran has had his crow dream, which helped him ... do what exactly? Wake up from his coma, sure. After he wakes, he has crow dreams sometimes (but also wolf dreams, much like Rickon must, given his close bond with Shaggy). But how do we know Rickon doesn't have crow dreams too?  When Bran makes Luwin take him to the crypts, Rickon and Shaggy are already down there. Rickon had the same dream, apparently. Bran describes to Luwin how the 3EC led him to the crypts to see his father. So it seems as though Rickon is also being contacted by the crow. Unless he has a different form of green dreams...?

So in summary, Bran and Rickon both have wolf dreams, both have crow dreams (or prophetic dreams of some sort), both are "wolves" (Starks with exactly the same bloodlines) in Winterfell, and they are both wargs with their very own direwolves. It has been said before that if we go by eye color (the gods mark those with the gift...), Shaggy's green eyes fit better than Summer's golden eyes. And Rickon seems a better candidate anyway: Bran takes a long time to embrace his gift, whereas Rickon is a natural. He has excellent control of Shaggy at only 4 years old, likes the darkness and even the taste of blood:

And Summer came, shooting from the dimness behind them, a leaping shadow. He slammed into Shaggydog and knocked him back, and the two direwolves rolled over and over in a tangle of grey and black fur, snapping and biting at each other, while Maester Luwin struggled to his knees, his arm torn and bloody. Osha propped Bran up against Lord Rickard’s stone wolf as she hurried to assist the maester. In the light of the guttering torch, shadow wolves twenty feet tall fought on the wall and roof.
“Shaggy,” a small voice called. When Bran looked up, his little brother was standing in the mouth of Father’s tomb. With one final snap at Summer’s face, Shaggydog broke off and bounded to Rickon’s side. “You let my father be,” Rickon warned Luwin. “You let him be.”

“That... that beast,” Luwin went on, “is supposed to be chained up in the kennels.”
Rickon patted Shaggydog’s muzzle, damp with blood. “I let him loose. He doesn’t like chains.” He licked at his fingers.
“Rickon,” Bran said, “would you like to come with me?”
“No. I like it here.”
“It’s dark here. And cold.”
“I’m not afraid. I have to wait for Father.”

To phrase it as a question: If Bran was in the crypts b/c BR, as the 3EC, took him there in his dream.... why was Rickon there? 

And why would anyone think Bran is the more powerful of the two?

[Black Crow]

 

So are you suggesting that anytime someone appears in someone else's dreams (whether it be BR, Bran, or another greenseer/sorcerer) they appear as a three-eyed crow? So that the crow doesn't represent any one person in real life?

On a related note, I've been wondering about Rickon. Why can't he be the winged wolf? What is it that makes Jojen decide it's Bran and not Rickon?

As to crows; yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting and would be consistent with Bloodraven talking to Bran as the crow yet being curiously vague when he was directly asked if he was the crow.

As to Bran and Rickon I think the brutally simple answer is that the latter was an afterthought, not mentioned in the original synopsis. Bran was intended for this role from the outset and we have discussed in the past how his being crippled may have been a necessary stage in his development.

[Melifeather]

Here's my theory on how Bran could be a winged wolf. The easy part is that he is a Stark warg. That's the wolf part. The winged part comes from being a skinchanger. So far we've seen that skinchangers can move into hosts, animals, people, and weirwoods, but they have to be in close proximity. We've also read Bloodravens interactions to Bran to follow the roots of the weirwood, which is also a type of physical connection. When Varamyr was dying he frantically tried to find another host, because he knew once his body died he wouldn't be able to control over where his spirit went. After he failed to take Thistle and his physical body died, his spirit began to float and was carried off by the wind until he got close to his wolves. His spirit had retained a connection to One Eye, so he was able to enter one of his wolves. The Three Eyed Crow told Bran that he would be able to fly, and I'm thinking that means Bran will be able to travel without the use of human, animal, or weirwood in order to see the past or future. He'll be able to go, for instance, into places that don't have weirwood trees.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't see Danaerys the Dragonlord embracing the Red God, but, given both her character arc and the synopsis I can see her as being at one and the same time both Azor Ahai and [with a nod to the problems in translation] the Stallion, hence my earlier comparison to her as Shiva the Destroyer whom the Prince that was Promised [Bran?] must oppose to preserve balance.

Always supposing of course that the prophecy stuff is relevant - beyond inspiring various individuals and factions to do things, and sometimes horrible things, in the name of their gods in order to try and make said prophecies come to pass.

Its a toss up to me with that one. If Moroqorro gets to her i can see his doctrine with her dreams particularly TSTMTW and the men in ice being what pushes her to do that.And again it all depends on how she sees her role,i always wondered when she saw the dream of Rhaego pretty much torching the world did she think " i may have to talk to him about that," or is it a matter of he is there to bring "justice"

She may may still act the part of the destroyer while being what some think the world needs.

[WhitewolfStark]

Good questions all. I think that we can dismiss Howland Reed's sending the Bobsey Twins with the intention of leading Bran into dark places...

This made me chuckle. It's been a long time since I've run into someone else who knows that reference! My mother used to talk about them disparagingly as books her mother (b. 1909) used to read as a child, that my mother found utterly unappealing as a child.

[Black Crow]

I likewise know of them first hand through my mother, who had a Bobsey Twins Annual. To be honest I'm actually more familiar with the reference through James Lee Burke's Robicheaux novels, in which one of the characters frequently refers to his partner and himself as "the Bobsey Twins from Homicide" 

[MaesterSam]

As to crows; yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting and would be consistent with Bloodraven talking to Bran as the crow yet being curiously vague when he was directly asked if he was the crow.

As to Bran and Rickon I think the brutally simple answer is that the latter was an afterthought, not mentioned in the original synopsis. Bran was intended for this role from the outset and we have discussed in the past how his being crippled may have been a necessary stage in his development.

You're probably right, disappointing as it may be. Rickon could be a really great character, if he had a few years to grow up. I wonder why he was included at all? Aside from the very powerful chapter in which they learn of Ned's death, he really doesn't add anything to the story. 

As for the crow avatars... I like it, but may need more convincing. We seem to have some examples of green dreams that don't involve crows (i.e. the sea coming to Winterfell), and we have examples of people invading dreams that don't include crows (most importantly, the Targaryen dragon dreams in the times of D&E, some of which are clearly prophetic, and may well have been sent by BR). And if dream invaders always manifest as crows, after 100+ years of doing it, shouldn't BR be aware of this? Then there is Quaithe, who apparently can appear to Dany even while the latter is awake, and can appear in her own form. 

I certainly don't claim to have a better explanation. But BR being the 3EC all along, and then forgetting all about it once Bran arrives, seems a little... fishy. But then that whole situation seems rather sketchy (and terrifying), and who knows what marrying a tree does to your short term memory.

 

[LmL]

You're probably right, disappointing as it may be. Rickon could be a really great character, if he had a few years to grow up. I wonder why he was included at all? Aside from the very powerful chapter in which they learn of Ned's death, he really doesn't add anything to the story. 

As for the crow avatars... I like it, but may need more convincing. We seem to have some examples of green dreams that don't involve crows (i.e. the sea coming to Winterfell), and we have examples of people invading dreams that don't include crows (most importantly, the Targaryen dragon dreams in the times of D&E, some of which are clearly prophetic, and may well have been sent by BR). And if dream invaders always manifest as crows, after 100+ years of doing it, shouldn't BR be aware of this? Then there is Quaithe, who apparently can appear to Dany even while the latter is awake, and can appear in her own form. 

I certainly don't claim to have a better explanation. But BR being the 3EC all along, and then forgetting all about it once Bran arrives, seems a little... fishy. But then that whole situation seems rather sketchy (and terrifying), and who knows what marrying a tree does to your short term memory.

 

Hey there MaesterSam, BlackCrow. I just happened to see the last couple comments and wanted to share a thought I've had on this subject exactly. My explanation is that the three-eyed crow is simply how Bloodraven appears in people's dreams. It's his dream self. He may not necessarily be controlling how he appears to Bran, nor even aware of it. Jojen and Bran see him as a three-eyed crow because the symbolism fits him, but if Bloodraven is not actually controlling this, then it makes perfect sense for him to be all like "crow? yeah, I guess I used to be a crow..."

[LmL]

Its a toss up to me with that one. If Moroqorro gets to her i can see his doctrine with her dreams particularly TSTMTW and the men in ice being what pushes her to do that.And again it all depends on how she sees her role,i always wondered when she saw the dream of Rhaego pretty much torching the world did she think " i may have to talk to him about that," or is it a matter of he is there to bring "justice"

She may may still act the part of the destroyer while being what some think the world needs.

Don't forget Maryen the Mage may already be in Slaver's Bay with a glass candle and all the knowledge he could gather about dragons and related magic from Asshai to the Citadel and everywhere in between. It's been my prediction that Dany will gain access to the glass candle and become a true Valyrian dragonlord, in the sense that she will become a sorceress as well as a dragon rider. I think that she will "go to Ashhai" via candle, perhaps. We know Martin was originally going to take her there, but changed that plan at some point - I think a glass candle vision would serve the purpose of her learning whatever difficult truths in Asshai that Quaithe was talking about without taking a long sea voyage. Also, a literal trip to Asshai would take away its mystery, while a murky glass candle vision would not. Martin could show us whatever he wants and we'd question all of it. 

So what I am saying is that she will be gaining starry wisdom, which I believe is the ancestor of R'hllorism. R'hllorism sprung up around the legend of Azor Ahai, and I am well convinced that Azor Ahai was the same person known as the Bloodstone Emperor, first high priest of the Church of Starry Wisdom. The R'hllorists may follow and or worship her but she herself will be above that (hypothesis), gaining access to deeper and older magical knowledge that goes back to the Bloodstone Emperor, Azor Ahai, the man who caused the Long Night. I've also got him pegged as a likely suspect for whatever magical experiments led to the Valyrians being "the blood of the dragon." 

Naturally, Quaithe is the most obvious Starry Wisdom cultist in the story, although I certainly suspect Marwyn as well based on several clues. Quaithe literally appears as starlight, whispering secrets, and she's the one telling Dany about truth waiting for her in Asshai. I'm not sure exactly what truth that is - I have a few ideas - but it seems certain to boost Dany's magical prowess, something which I am sure is coming anyway. 

[MaesterSam]

Most of the characters (and factions) are selfish assholes, though. Even the causes that we as readers might find sympathetic are still selfish, such as the North going to war for vengeance and justice, something that I believe is highlighted by Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon about all that she has lost on behalf of the Starks.

That said, I do agree that Dany is shaping up to be one of the major threats going into the final arcs of the story, and I believe that a large part of that will be embracing her identity as a Khaleesi of the Dothraki. Ultimately, I think she learned all of the wrong lessons from her time in Meereen--rather than coming away with an understanding that being a ruler is tedious work, filled with setbacks and unsatisfying compromises, I believe she's going to come away from Meereen with an (incorrect) perception that the mistake she made was being too willing to work with her enemies.

I agree, all unnecessary wars are selfish asshole moves. I think I also meant differences in the manner of warfare. The Stark men don't rape townswomen or burn villages to the ground (at least not on Robb's command, of course there are bad apples). I expect Doran's army will be similarly "well behaved", as will that of the Vale. And Aegon, of course, who needs to make a good impression and gain allies.

The group Dany is creating is all about killing, raping and pillaging, leaving smoking ruins in their wake. This is really not ideal if you plan to govern these lands when the war is over. Jorah convinced Dany to get the Unsullied by pointing out that they will not engage in unnecessary acts of cruelty after a battle is won, unlike most armies. She saw the wisdom of this at the time; now, she will have to make a decision of whether or not to accept thousands of additional 'free" warriors for her cause, if these warriors won't adhere to her moral code. It will be interesting to see how she handles this.

Like an echo of the last hero--but instead of allying with the Children to defeat the Others, making common cause against the dragons? Hmm--have you seen Voice's warg-block theory? It might fit with this.

I have not, but I will check that out! I always enjoy Voice's theories. Thanks!

Not necessarily, but we talked recently about how there appeared not to be a Westerosi version of the Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised/Stallion/ Fill in Blank prophecy. Thanks to the absence of ancient writings [although I still think that might be what was in the book burned by Roose Bolton] we don't actually know whether there is a Westerosi prophecy, but...

Bloodraven's hanging on for so long, awaiting Bran, does suggest that his coming may have been prophesied and that he is Bran the Builder come again/reborn.

And if he is the go-between, joining men with the Old Powers those fortifications may not be intended to prevent the coming of the Others, but the other lot from over the seas. 

Bran the Builder come again, or .... the Night's King come again? This just made me think of a possible connection between the LH and the NK, which just might explain why the LH isn't better remembered (along with the prophecy of his return). Ok, so it's slightly crackpot, but here goes: 

Since the LH did his heroic deed at the end of the LN, he easily could have lived for many years afterwards. What better occupation than to join the NW? 

Ok, so here he is in the NW, living in their one and only castle, the Nightfort. He is also Bran the Builder, which is how he can secretly add a gate in a well without anyone noticing. (This part is not absolutely required for the rest of the theory ). He had ended the LN by making a pact with the Others; this included x number of babies handed over via the gate. However, the LH can't bring himself to tell everyone that this was the price. Or he tells people but they refuse. So, the LH secretly gives babies to the Others via the Black Gate. He is a good NW brother otherwise and is eventually chosen as LC.

The new LC has a secret but great relationship with the Others. That's why he has no fear, and that's why he thinks it's ok to snatch that Other woman he glimpses from the Wall. We hear nothing in the NK story of the Others wanting their woman back, so presumably the marriage was consensual. The rest is as described. After the marriage, he stays LC in command of the NW, and (having saved the world after all) names himself a king. After many years, he is overthrown. Now comes the good part: His existence is erased from history, his very name forgotten. THIS is why we haven't heard the Westerosi version of the Azor Ahai prophecy. This is why we don't know the Last Hero's name, or details of what he did. This is why there is no statue of him anywhere. He was purposefully erased from history, because he was also the Night's King. Mel said it best: “If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil.” History decided that the LH/NK was evil, and forgot him.

The End. 

[wolfmaid7]

Don't forget Maryen the Mage may already be in Slaver's Bay with a glass candle and all the knowledge he could gather about dragons and related magic from Asshai to the Citadel and everywhere in between. It's been my prediction that Dany will gain access to the glass candle and become a true Valyrian dragonlord, in the sense that she will become a sorceress as well as a dragon rider. I think that she will "go to Ashhai" via candle, perhaps. We know Martin was originally going to take her there, but changed that plan at some point - I think a glass candle vision would serve the purpose of her learning whatever difficult truths in Asshai that Quaithe was talking about without taking a long sea voyage. Also, a literal trip to Asshai would take away its mystery, while a murky glass candle vision would not. Martin could show us whatever he wants and we'd question all of it. 

So what I am saying is that she will be gaining starry wisdom, which I believe is the ancestor of R'hllorism. R'hllorism sprung up around the legend of Azor Ahai, and I am well convinced that Azor Ahai was the same person known as the Bloodstone Emperor, first high priest of the Church of Starry Wisdom. The R'hllorists may follow and or worship her but she herself will be above that (hypothesis), gaining access to deeper and older magical knowledge that goes back to the Bloodstone Emperor, Azor Ahai, the man who caused the Long Night. I've also got him pegged as a likely suspect for whatever magical experiments led to the Valyrians being "the blood of the dragon." 

Naturally, Quaithe is the most obvious Starry Wisdom cultist in the story, although I certainly suspect Marwyn as well based on several clues. Quaithe literally appears as starlight, whispering secrets, and she's the one telling Dany about truth waiting for her in Asshai. I'm not sure exactly what truth that is - I have a few ideas - but it seems certain to boost Dany's magical prowess, something which I am sure is coming anyway. 

Ah yes i forgot about him that is another avenue he could be one to help her open a door and she walks through it whatever is revealed to her and however she interprets it is another thing.I think Dany is of the greenseeing type myself and something like a glass candle could be as the weirwod to her so she can look through. He visiting Valyria through any conduit made accessible to her is definitely a plus.

I don't know about her being a sorceress in that sense but i'm all in that she's of the kind that makes her a greenseer.So woe to the world if she gets consumed by any knowledge she may obtain.

[MaesterSam]

Hey there MaesterSam, BlackCrow. I just happened to see the last couple comments and wanted to share a thought I've had on this subject exactly. My explanation is that the three-eyed crow is simply how Bloodraven appears in people's dreams. It's his dream self. He may not necessarily be controlling how he appears to Bran, nor even aware of it. Jojen and Bran see him as a three-eyed crow because the symbolism fits him, but if Bloodraven is not actually controlling this, then it makes perfect sense for him to be all like "crow? yeah, I guess I used to be a crow..."

Hey there, LmL, good to see you here! What I find the most ironic about BR as the 3EC is that he was never actually a crow (NW brother) with three eyes. He lost one eye before he went to the Wall, so he had one left. Add the "third eye", and that makes two. So the symbolism doesn't even fit him: he was the 2EC the whole time! I wonder if that was an accident or if GRRM did it on purpose, as a clue that Bran is in the wrong place. 

[LmL]

Hey there, LmL, good to see you here! What I find the most ironic about BR as the 3EC is that he was never actually a crow (NW brother) with three eyes. He lost one eye before he went to the Wall, so he had one left. Add the "third eye", and that makes two. So the symbolism doesn't even fit him: he was the 2EC the whole time! I wonder if that was an accident or if GRRM did it on purpose, as a clue that Bran is in the wrong place. 

Ha ha you made me chuckle there. I think the third eye is still the third eye, no matter how many physical eyes you have. 

As for Bloodraven being bad, or just not in Bran's best in interest, I'm open to that possibility, though I tend to trust his judgment. It's always a question of where the line is between Machiavellian hero and straight villain, and Bloodraven rides that line. Have you read weirwood leviathan's blog? It's really good and muses on these ideas. 

[Mace Cooterian]

Good questions all. I think that we can dismiss Howland Reed's sending the Bobsey Twins with the intention of leading Bran into dark places. There are various ways we can interpret this without tying ourselves in knots: it may be that the visit was exactly what it said on the tin and that Howland Reed simply sent them to affirm their allegiance, but was unaware of the secret agenda; or, he knew of the true purpose and offered the renewal of the oath as a cover story; or, he knew nothing about it but his name was invoked cos they could hardly come into the hall and announce that Bran is the Winged Wolf and we've come to take him beyond the Wall.

As to the crow, we've discussed before how there may not be a crow at all, but rather that's the avatar used by those who come to people in dreams, just as real crows carry messages in the waking world.

I think therefore that what we have here is Jojen being visited by a "crow" in a green dream and being told to seek out the Winged Wolf of prophecy which Bloodraven for one has been waiting for so long. Jojen, perhaps not unnaturally, is dubious at first but on coming into Bran's presence he is convinced that he is indeed the Winged Wolf.

On the subject on how one's avatar comes across in dreams, we also have Bran appearing as a three-eyed Weirwood to Jon outside the Skirling Pass.

"Jon?  The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too.  Can a shout be silent?  He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing only.....A weirwood.

.....The weirwood had his brother's face.  Had his brother always had three eyes?  Not always, came the silent shout.  Not before the crow".