Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl

[Sullen]

 

1. Yeah, and he later feels remorse about it.

He still did it, while Randyll didn't, Randyll has the moral high ground here.

 

2. George R.R. Martin:

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

Yes, in spite of everything, meaning he still committed unrighteous acts and here there, disregarded justice when it profited him, and was generally a bad man. Deep down, he's righteous, you don't need to look deep down to see that Randyll, despite being a complete asshole, is righteous.

 

3. He also saves the wall, and is the only political figure that cares about the others.

He saved the Wall because it was pretty much the only thing he could do. If he waited on Dragonstone or in Storm's End, he was lost.

He's the only one that cares about the Others because he is the only one with a magical seer telling him that the Others are moving to the Wall and threatening the Realm. The other political figures simply do not believe in that superstitious mumbo jumbo. 

[John Doe]

Yes, in spite of everything, meaning he still committed unrighteous acts and here there, disregarded justice when it profited him, and was generally a bad man.

Where did Martin say that? Or is it your own overblown interpretation?

[kimim]

Or, as I like to call them, the shitty character club. They are awful people, but somehow, alluring all the same. There is something about them that readers, including myself love. Why? And what does that say about us as people?

 

The biggest question: who is the worst and why? 

(Just for fun) 

First, please no Stannis in this club. Maybe next novel he ends up there, but he's not there yet. He's teetering on the edge, which makes him fascinating.

As for the rest: I love Tywin and Roose, as literary characters. In rl, I'd want both in prison. Tywin is difficult to pigeonhole as the villain he is, simply because there's so much more to him. He's brilliant, complex, unpredictable. Roose is equally great. Those leeches are a hilarious touch. His pale eyes, his low voice, his menace, combined with his desire for a peaceful land, a peaceful people are just...idk. I love this character.

Tarly--meh. He's a harsh man who was not good to his son. Doesn't exactly fill me with any feeling but dislike, as there's not much more there. It's totally subjective.

As for who is worst: HOW worst? The character I find least interesting? That would be Tarly.

Worst as in the most evil? A tie between Roose and Tywin. Subjective!

 

[Sullen]

Where did Martin say that? Or is it your own overblown interpretation?

What do you think "In spite of everything" means exactly?

Stannis abandoned Robert to his death (treason), conspired to murder his younger brother before they were ever openly in conflict, and proceeded to murder him (kinslaying), and completely ignored the murder of Guncer Sunglass at the hands of Selyse (unjust), if Robb Stark punished Karstark for his murder of the Lannister boys, Stannis should punish Selyse for her murder of Lord Sunglass. Among others...

Not only that, but he is generally callous and hurtful to everyone around him, publicly humiliating the other man that ever truly cared for him, in the name of appeasing his Queen and his witch.

[7-KG]

One that potentially uses rape as a method of torture, at that.

You know that Stannis gelds rapists, right?

   

    He still did it, while Randyll didn't, Randyll has the moral high ground here.

 

Tarly never had to face his brother in combat in the same circumstances Stannis had. Tarly doesn't even has a brother, so this is irrelevant.

 

Yes, in spite of everything, meaning he still committed unrighteous acts and here there, disregarded justice when it profited him, and was generally a bad man. Deep down, he's righteous, you don't need to look deep down to see that Randyll, despite being a complete asshole, is righteous.

At no point Martin says he was "generally a bad man."

 

 

He saved the Wall because it was pretty much the only thing he could do. If he waited on Dragonstone or in Storm's End, he was lost.

He's the only one that cares about the Others because he is the only one with a magical seer telling him that the Others are moving to the Wall and threatening the Realm. The other political figures simply do not believe in that superstitious mumbo jumbo. 

He could've had stayed in Dragonstone or SE, as you're saying. It doesn't matter he'd lose, he would fight to the bitter end and then some.

Yeah, and this doesn't change the fact he cares about the others.

[Sullen]

 

Cressen also say for Stannis

When some people reseve love in some way they might not be able to love the others with the same way the most people do. For example I have a friend that his example of parental love is that of harsh, judgmental and serious treatment where everything has to be nearly perfect and that is the same way he shows his love too., he will never hug or kiss you but he really does love other people, it's simply the only way that he knows how the love works.

But he's not even harsh, judgmental, or serious with Shireen, he simply isn't there.

 

He has a duty to his daughter and that I think that is love. He even list it before the Realm.

He keeps Patchface around because he knows that she likes Patchface. He obviously cares about her.

Yes, a duty to her as his heir, as his House, as an extension of him.

Keeping Patchface around isn't exactly a huge concession, not one that I would say proves he cares for her.

 

As I have said before I agree with Val, Shireen isn't healthy. Her greyscale might be, what is the word?, in repression but is still there.

Remission is the term you're looking for. But Stannis and the maesters do not know or think that, as far as they are concerned Shireen is healthy.

[John Doe]

Stannis abandoned Robert to his death (treason),

conspired to murder his younger brother before they were ever openly in conflict, and proceeded to murder him (kinslaying),

and completely ignored the murder of Guncer Sunglass at the hands of Selyse (unjust), if Robb Stark punished Karstark for his murder of the Lannister boys, Stannis should punish Selyse for her murder of Lord Sunglass. Among others...

Not only that, but he is generally callous and hurtful to everyone around him, publicly humiliating the other man that ever truly cared for him, in the name of appeasing his Queen and his witch.

1. No.

2. No, they were at conflict since Renly crowned himself.

3. Guncer was a traitor, a prisoner is not a hostage, and a Queen not a vassal.

4. Your point about Cressen is the first that's correct, I agree with that.

[Sullen]

You know that Stannis gelds rapists, right?

Supports the argument that he is a hypocrite, thank you.

Tarly never had to face his brother in combat in the same circumstances Stannis had. Tarly doesn't even has a brother, so this is irrelevant.

Stannis never had to face his brother in combat, he chose to. Stannis's brother on the other hand expected friendship with his brother, while Stannis was still plotting to have him murdered.

At no point Martin says he was "generally a bad man."

I'll repeat, what do you think "In spite of everything" means?

Yeah, and this doesn't change the fact he cares about the others.

Yes, and lose his cause.

He goes North because it could win the North to his cause, not only because of the Others.

Yeah, and this doesn't change the fact he cares about the others.

It means that him being "The only one that still cares" is quite meaningless, because he's literally the only one that knows what's happening.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

But he's not even harsh, judgmental, or serious with Shireen, he simply isn't there.

Yes, a duty to her as his heir, as his House, as an extension of him.

Keeping Patchface around isn't exactly a huge concession, not one that I would say proves he cares for her.

Remission is the term you're looking for. But Stannis and the maesters do not know or think that, as far as they are concerned Shireen is healthy.

We don't know that, if that is the kind of love he got it's only natural that this is how he thinks that love works.

I don't think that this is the same, I think that what you say is the order he gives to the Knight who leaves.

He cares enough to keep around someone he dislikes since she likes him.

Sorry, english isn't my first language and I wasn't sure about that. Can they be sure tho? Maesters have proved that they don't knoe anything. And if he didn't cared about her why he should care if she survived in the first place? 

[kimim]

What do you think "In spite of everything" means exactly?

Stannis abandoned Robert to his death (treason), conspired to murder his younger brother before they were ever openly in conflict, and proceeded to murder him (kinslaying), and completely ignored the murder of Guncer Sunglass at the hands of Selyse (unjust), if Robb Stark punished Karstark for his murder of the Lannister boys, Stannis should punish Selyse for her murder of Lord Sunglass. Among others...

Not only that, but he is generally callous and hurtful to everyone around him, publicly humiliating the other man that ever truly cared for him, in the name of appeasing his Queen and his witch.

I think the main difference between Stannis and Tywin-Roose is his morality, and his self awareness that a lot of what he does falls below the standard he sets for himself. So, unlike Tywin and Roose, he struggles. That struggle is represented in his two advisers. The key moment for Stannis is Edric. One adviser wants the kid dead, while the other wants the kid alive. Stannis goes for power, decides to kill Edric. Davos goes behind him, takes the execution out of his hands. Instead of punishing Davos, Stannis keeps him as Hand. Unlike Tywin, who has no compunctions about killing Rhaegar's kids or about the RW, and unlike Roose, who has no compunctions about anything, so long as it doesn't create public scandal, Stannis cares, for himself.

[Sullen]

1. No.

Disappearing on Dragonstone and doing nothing while you know the King is in danger is treason, yes.

2. No, they were at conflict since Renly crowned himself.

Renly certainly didn't think so, he saw Stannis as an ally until Stannis attacked him, mate. EDIT: Neither did the Lannisters, or Catelyn. Nobody but Stannis thought Stannis and Renly were in conflict before Stannis's attack on Storm's End.

3. Guncer was a traitor, a prisoner is not a hostage, and a Queen not a vassal.

Are you seriously going to argue that Selyse was completely in the rights to kill a prisoner? And Guncer was absolutely a hostage, why do you think House Sunglass remained neutral during the conflict. As for his Queen, she's absolutely his subject. 

[Bronn Urgandy]

and completely ignored the murder of Guncer Sunglass at the hands of Selyse (unjust), if Robb Stark punished Karstark for his murder of the Lannister boys, Stannis should punish Selyse for her murder of Lord Sunglass. Among others...

Actually he takes full responsibility for it, stating that the remaining Sunglass left when "I" burnt his brother

[Sullen]

Actually he takes full responsibility for it, stating that the remaining Sunglass left when "I" burnt his brother

Yet, doesn't punish Selyse.

She did not have the right to burn Sunglass, Davos is appalled by it, and by extension so should the reader.

[John Doe]

Supports the argument that he is a hypocrite, thank you.

Stannis never had to face his brother in combat, he chose to. Stannis's brother on the other hand expected friendship with his brother, while Stannis was still plotting to have him murdered.

I'll repeat, what do you think "In spite of everything" means?

Yes, and lose his cause. He goes North because it could win the North to his cause, not only because of the Others.

It means that him being "The only one that still cares" is quite meaningless, because he's literally the only one that knows what's happening.

1. Quote where it says he uses rape?

2. Renly chose to by crowning himself, and please quote where it says he expected friendship.

3. Despite of his faults, that's easy.

4. He cares about the Others, whether you like it or not.

5. The Night's Watch sent news to every single king. 

 

Disappearing on Dragonstone and doing nothing while you know the King is in danger is treason, yes.

 

Renly certainly didn't think so, he saw Stannis as an ally until Stannis attacked him, mate.

Are you seriously going to argue that Selyse was completely in the rights to kill a prisoner? And Guncer was absolutely a hostage, why do you think House Sunglass remained neutral during the conflict. As for his Queen, she's absolutely his subject. 

6. No, I already explained it right in this thread.

7. Quote?

8. I argue that the situations are different and can't be compared.

[Sullen]

We don't know that, if that is the kind of love he got it's only natural that this is how he thinks that love works.

I don't think that this is the same, I think that what you say is the order he gives to the Knight who leaves.

He cares enough to keep around someone he dislikes since she likes him.

Sorry, english isn't my first language and I wasn't sure about that. Can they be sure tho? Maesters have proved that they don't knoe anything. And if he didn't cared about her why he should care if she survived in the first place? 

It's not the only kind of love he got either though. But all claims, Cressen was a very loving parent surrogate.

I think what I said applies more to what he said to Massey, yes, but it applies as well when he talks about his duty to his daughter.

He's not often at Dragonstone though, I don't think it's a huge concession.

No worries about using the wrong word, English isn't my first language too, I understand that kind of difficulty. As for the maesters, they have no observe a recurring case of greyscale, I'd say they'd be in the right believing Shireen is in perfect health, and I think Stannis would agree too. He would care if she survived or not because she is his only heir, no love is required for that.

[UnViserion]

Worst to best:

Roose, Randyl, Tywin, Stannis

[Sullen]

1. Quote where it says he uses rape?

"When she asked Ser Justin if Suggs had always been that way, he grimaced. "On Dragonstone he would gamble with the torturers and lend them a hand in the questioning of prisoners, especially if the prisoner were a young woman."

Why do you think he likes questioning women exactly?

2. Renly chose to by crowning himself, and please quote where it says he expected friendship.

"I have twice that number here," Renly said, "and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm's End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea."

For the Lannisters, see Tyrion and Cersei's reactions when they learn that Renly and Stannis are fighting each other.

For Cat's, see her reaction at learning that Stannis is attacking Storm's End, and not the Lannisters.

3. Despite of his faults, that's easy.

Why would his faults affect whether he is a righteous man or not? In spite of everything implies more than just "Despite being grumpy."

4. He cares about the Others, whether you like it or not.

And I'm saying that it doesn't matter for much, he's literally the only King that believes in them.

5. The Night's Watch sent news to every single king. 

Yeah, and considering they don't all have a magic future-seeing witch, they all think the letter is bullshit.

6. No, I already explained it right in this thread.

And I think that explanation is unsatisfactory. Stannis thought Cersei knew that he knew (she didn't though, as we can can see by the quote you provided), which means he believed Robert to be in danger as well.

7. Quote?

See number 2.

8. I argue that the situations are different and can't be compared.

Why? Enemies held prisoner being executed by someone who didn't have any right doing so, it's exactly the same scenario, except that Stannis decides not to punish Selyse and takes the responsibility for the death of Sunglass.

[7-KG]

Supports the argument that he is a hypocrite, thank you.

Stannis doesn't allow rapists in his army. At no point it's said this guy uses rape as a tool of torture:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Clayton_Suggs

 

I'll repeat, what do you think "In spite of everything" means?

Yes, and lose his cause.

He goes North because it could win the North to his cause, not only because of the Others.

- It means Stannis diverged here and there, not that he was bad.

- He wants the support of the North to fight the others.

 

It means that him being "The only one that still cares" is quite meaningless, because he's literally the only one that knows what's happening.

He believed in Melisandre, most of the other noblemen in Westeros wouldn't believe in her.

Stannis never had to face his brother in combat, he chose to. Stannis's brother on the other hand expected friendship with his brother, while Stannis was still plotting to have him murdered.

Yeah, friendship:

    "Catelyn:—your brother is the lawful heir."

"While he lives," Renly admitted. "Though it's a fool's law, wouldn't you agree? Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted? The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis."

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It's not the only kind of love he got either though. But all claims, Cressen was a very loving parent surrogate.

I think what I said applies more to what he said to Massey, yes, but it applies as well when he talks about his duty to his daughter.

He's not often at Dragonstone though, I don't think it's a huge concession.

No worries about using the wrong word, English isn't my first language too, I understand that kind of difficulty. As for the maesters, they have no observe a recurring case of greyscale, I'd say they'd be in the right believing Shireen is in perfect health, and I think Stannis would agree too. He would care if she survived or not because she is his only heir, no love is required for that.

Still "parent surrogate", basically a servant not a parent.

I think that the order of his words are very interesting daughter>Realm>Robert.

She was a girl and a sick one too. Most of the fathers in Westeros wouldn't had spared a second though about her, they would had let her in a room and forgot about her while they would had tried for another.

[Sullen]

 

Stannis doesn't allow rapists in his army. At no point it's said this guy uses rape as a tool of torture:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Clayton_Suggs

Look at the quote I provided above.

 

- It means Stannis diverged here and there, not that he was bad.

Then he would have said in spite of erring here and there, not in spite of everything.

 

- He wants the support of the North to fight the others.

Yeah, I'm sure them making him King is just coincidental.

 

He believed in Melisandre, most of the other noblemen in Westeros wouldn't believe in her.

He believed Melissandre because she gave him cause to believe her, showing him the future in the flames, and murdering his brother on his orders and whatnot.

 

Yeah, friendship:

Look at the quote I provided above, and consider that the quote you posted occurs after Stannis attacked Renly and told him he would kill him.