Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl

[Minsc]

Where does it say Renly positions his army to outnumber stannis and attack multiple flanks? He leaves the bulk of his army behind, that's like the opposite. Stannis' positioning was away from the sun, I'd call that better. Loras himself admits that Garlan is the superior warrior. And although Stannis appointed a bad admiral, Imry was not in his service yet. And aside from Imry, Stannis picks good commanders, Davos for example.

Overly consevative against the encounter, what does that mean?

How was Cat biased?

If anyone's biased, it's the Bartheon bannermen towards Robert. Cat also says Eddard was there to curb Robert. He was the superior general saving him in battle of the bells, like Tarly is to Tyrell. Renly won't starve if defeated. And will be able to escape. His army though... If their supply lines are cut and they just faced a defeat with their king running away.

I dont think Stannis had a guaranteed victory. Far from it. If they came to steel, I think Stannis would have about as good of a chance as Renly. 

 

Renly's army already outnumbered Stannis around four to one. Furthermore, Stannis placed himself the position where all of his flanks are exposed. Renly had zero reasons to bring his entire army when his vanguard was more enough to smash Stannis. The sun is a minor inconvenience that can easily be waited out. Garlan being better with sword, hardly discounts Loras being a great warrior. Hardly, Stannis is much worse with appointments as seen with Imry Florent, Alester Florent, and Axell Florent while Renly's appointment of Loras was standard fare.

Catelyn is biased as she is utterly opposed to the Baratheon conflict and wants to see any criticism of it that she can. Notice her stance on Renly's actions has completely flipped with her wishing he would rush foreword when it was against the Lannisters but now she thinks he should go slow.

The fact is that Robert is considered the superior commander and has a better track record than Stannis. Thus, reacting in a similar manner as him isn't bad tactics. Good thing, they aren't going to face their king defeated and running away. All of the odds vastly favor Renly, with Stannis having almost no chance.

As Stannis has vastly worse disadvantages and a similar if not worse habit of making Renly's so called mistakes.

[Minsc]

The point is - No other stormlord could've done it becoz they are a bunch of disloyal shits.

Maybe, someone like BF could've done it. Never said teenage Stannis was the only one.

 

Hmmm, we know enough about Renly and he doesn't have what it takes to go through all that shitshit at SE during RR and still resist.

 

 

Renly went through the same shit at SE during RR while he was six as he was there during RR.

[Hugorfonics]

[Hugorfonics]

Numbers aren't everything. Stannis outnumbered Tyrion at Blackwater and had less numbers then Mance at the Wall.

When does it say Stannis' army will be easily flanked? We never get a glimpse into Stannis' camp. 

    Leaving your supplies and the majority of your army is fatuous. I see no benifit in Renlys decision, short of the long term one, Stannis not abducting Mace

"A minor inconvenience that can be waited out" Dude, it's the sun. Renlys orders are to charge east at dawn. Thus with Renlys orders it can not be waited out, and they'll be half blind for a few hours, more then inconvenient.

   Garlan is older and more experienced in swordplay. But my choice would be Randyll. A known and accomplished veteran. Loras is simply inexperienced, and when he finally does lead an army he gets burnt and hospitalized.

   What position did Stannis give Allister? And how has he misused it? Axel did misuse his power, but Stannis never gave him enough to actually do anything. Seeing how Stannis picked the lowest and most adept hand, it's hard to say he's worse with appointments.

    I did not notice that, what do you mean by slow? Catelyn wished for the boys to fight Lannister together, then for them to call a council. She never seemed to relish a Baratheon fight, and certainly not a Stannis victory

  Reacting in a similar matter to Robert would be to employ Eddard or someone like him, who can rearrange his abysmal stratagy. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Numbers aren't everything. Stannis outnumbered Tyrion at Blackwater and had less numbers then Mance at the Wall.

 

And he was winning.

[Hugorfonics]

And he was winning.

 That's debatable. Regardless Tyrions reinforcements arrived at Stannis' rear. But even with Twyin and Tyrell joining the battle, Stannis still had many men. (All of Dragonstone, Stromlands, most of the Reach)

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 That's debatable.

No, its not. Tyrion was getting his ass handed to him.

[Hugorfonics]

 Stannis' navy was obliterated. His sailors burnt. He was unable to open any gate

 

[Minsc]

Numbers aren't everything. Stannis outnumbered Tyrion at Blackwater and had less numbers then Mance at the Wall.

Stannis was winning at BW until the numbers changed when the Tyrells and Tywin came to support the city.  Mance's army was made up of untrained savages without proper weapons not the finest soldiers in the south.  Stannis being vastly outnumbered is more of a massive disadvantage than any complaint against Renly.

When does it say Stannis' army will be easily flanked? We never get a glimpse into Stannis' camp. 

The fact that he has an entire army to his front and a force to his rear.  Furthermore, as Renly's force is mounted they would easily be able to hit him from the sides.

Leaving your supplies and the majority of your army is fatuous. I see no benifit in Renlys decision, short of the long term one, Stannis not abducting Mace

There is no benefit for Renly to bring them.  He already has the numbers and he is already in friendly territory that can resupply his army after crushing Stannis.  Renly has no reason to delay his response just so he can outnumber Stannis by even more.  Especially, when his foot wouldn't even be used in the forward attack.

>"A minor inconvenience that can be waited out" Dude, it's the sun. Renlys orders are to charge east at dawn. Thus with Renlys orders it can not be waited out, and they'll be half blind for a few hours, more then inconvenient.

Yes, it slight minor inconvenience that can be waited out by just waiting around ten minutes or more.  They would hardly be half blind (and hardly for a few hours) especially after they made contact with the enemy.  I find it amusing how Stannis fans totally like to pretend being outnumbered 4 to 1 while having inferior troops is no problem but the sun in your eyes is some unbelievable mistake.  Sorry, the first is vastly worse to have against you.

Garlan is older and more experienced in swordplay. But my choice would be Randyll. A known and accomplished veteran. Loras is simply inexperienced, and when he finally does lead an army he gets burnt and hospitalized.

Garlan isn't anymore experienced in battle than Loras at all with him never have been at war either and Loras is better with the lance and seeing how Renly's vanguard is mounted....  Loras is fully in line with picks made by Stannis and Tywin when choosing their commanders of their vanguard.  Thus, if Loras is a bad pick than Stannis likely had an equally terrible pick seeing how he has an even worse track record when it comes to picking individuals.

 

 What position did Stannis give Allister? And how has he misused it? Axel did misuse his power, but Stannis never gave him enough to actually do anything. Seeing how Stannis picked the lowest and most adept hand, it's hard to say he's worse with appointments.

He made Allister Hand of the King, I don't know but Stannis sure felt the need to burn him alive for treason.  Axel Florent was made Stannis' castellan.  Only after picking  Hand that betrayed him.  He is vastly worse than Renly.

I did not notice that, what do you mean by slow? Catelyn wished for the boys to fight Lannister together, then for them to call a council. She never seemed to relish a Baratheon fight, and certainly not a Stannis victory

She was mad when he was marching slow against the Lannisters, but now she wished he marched slow against Stannis.

 

  Reacting in a similar matter to Robert would be to employ Eddard or someone like him, who can rearrange his abysmal stratagy. 

Robert led the majority of his battles with a better track record than Stannis and is considered a better commander than Stannis.

[Hugorfonics]

 

Stannis was winning at BW until the numbers changed when the Tyrells and Tywin came to support the city.  Mance's army was made up of untrained savages without proper weapons not the finest soldiers in the south.  Stannis being vastly outnumbered is more of a massive disadvantage than any complaint against Renly.

The fact that he has an entire army to his front and a force to his rear.  Furthermore, as Renly's force is mounted they would easily be able to hit him from the sides.

There is no benefit for Renly to bring them.  He already has the numbers and he is already in friendly territory that can resupply his army after crushing Stannis.  Renly has no reason to delay his response just so he can outnumber Stannis by even more.  Especially, when his foot wouldn't even be used in the forward attack.

Yes, it slight minor inconvenience that can be waited out by just waiting around ten minutes or more.  They would hardly be half blind (and hardly for a few hours) especially after they made contact with the enemy.  I find it amusing how Stannis fans totally like to pretend being outnumbered 4 to 1 while having inferior troops is no problem but the sun in your eyes is some unbelievable mistake.  Sorry, the first is vastly worse to have against you.

Garlan isn't anymore experienced in battle than Loras at all with him never have been at war either and Loras is better with the lance and seeing how Renly's vanguard is mounted....  Loras is fully in line with picks made by Stannis and Tywin when choosing their commanders of their vanguard.  Thus, if Loras is a bad pick than Stannis likely had an equally terrible pick seeing how he has an even worse track record when it comes to picking individuals.

 

He made Allister Hand of the King, I don't know but Stannis sure felt the need to burn him alive for treason.  Axel Florent was made Stannis' castellan.  Only after picking  Hand that betrayed him.  He is vastly worse than Renly.

She was mad when he was marching slow against the Lannisters, but now she wished he marched slow against Stannis.

 

Robert led the majority of his battles with a better track record than Stannis and is considered a better commander than Stannis.

 I dispute that Stannis was winning at blackwater. From the first few minutes of the battle Tryion clearly gained the upper hand. Stannis lost major forces before Tyrion did. Stannis never opened a gate. Even with Maces reinforments, I'm not sure Stannis was outnumbered (maybe not if you count the dead) Mances army consisted of giants and mammotha. There was a lot going against Stannis.

You want more times numbers don't matter? Robb in Riverrun and WW (maybe oxford)

Dany in Yunakai

Ramsay at Winterfell

Numbers don't mean everything

Where does it say that Renly plans on using the reserve army? We were present throughout the military meeting and he never mentioned it.

If Loras breaks through Stannis' defense, then him and his can see. This is not guaranteed and the army behind him will still be incapacitated.

More then numbers is the first strike. Stannis lost at BW because Imry burnt his ships. He won at the Wall after sixskins retreated in shrieks and flames. Dany from attacking prematurely. Ramsay from executing the leader. The first shock (sun in eyes for a while) is rudimentary in Westerosi battles.

I wouldn't call myself a Stannis fan. He's entertaining and I enjoy reading him, but that's the case for everyone. I certainly don't root for him the way I do for my favorites.

Ahh, I got Axel and Alliser mixed up, apologies. Axel seems ok. A dick to Jon and Davos, but fine to be a castillian and look after Selyse.

We really only know of 3 battles Robert fought (I think) . One was a defeat the other a defeat till Ned came, the last, the tridant. We hear that Robert had other victories, but keeping in mind Cats quote and Roberts known battles with and without Ned, it's safe to assume Ned was present through most battles.

 

Robert gets the credit like Mace onto Randyll, or Tywin onto Tyrion

 

[Minsc]

 I dispute that Stannis was winning at blackwater. From the first few minutes of the battle Tryion clearly gained the upper hand. Stannis lost major forces before Tyrion did. Stannis never opened a gate. Even with Maces reinforments, I'm not sure Stannis was outnumbered (maybe not if you count the dead) Mances army consisted of giants and mammotha. There was a lot going against Stannis.

You want more times numbers don't matter? Robb in Riverrun and WW (maybe oxford)

Dany in Yunakai

Ramsay at Winterfell

Numbers don't mean everything

Where does it say that Renly plans on using the reserve army? We were present throughout the military meeting and he never mentioned it.

If Loras breaks through Stannis' defense, then him and his can see. This is not guaranteed and the army behind him will still be incapacitated.

More then numbers is the first strike. Stannis lost at BW because Imry burnt his ships. He won at the Wall after sixskins retreated in shrieks and flames. Dany from attacking prematurely. Ramsay from executing the leader. The first shock (sun in eyes for a while) is rudimentary in Westerosi battles.

I wouldn't call myself a Stannis fan. He's entertaining and I enjoy reading him, but that's the case for everyone. I certainly don't root for him the way I do for my favorites.

Ahh, I got Axel and Alliser mixed up, apologies. Axel seems ok. A dick to Jon and Davos, but fine to be a castillian and look after Selyse.

We really only know of 3 battles Robert fought (I think) . One was a defeat the other a defeat till Ned came, the last, the tridant. We hear that Robert had other victories, but keeping in mind Cats quote and Roberts known battles with and without Ned, it's safe to assume Ned was present through most battles.

 

Robert gets the credit like Mace onto Randyll, or Tywin onto Tyrion

 

Stannis was winning at BW until the Tyrells arrived, moreover even if wasn't Tyrion benefited from being in a defensive fortification and his numbers were closer to Stannis' then Stannis was to Renly. When Mace arrived they vastly outnumbered Stannis.

None of their numbers were as bad as Stannis (Robb was relatively equal if not greater than Jaime's) and they all had an element of surprise that Stannis wouldn't have.

Penrose isn't a moron thus will easily sally force and hit Stannis in the rear. Loras' forces will easily smash into Stannis' either defeating him or holding him until Renly's other battalions smash Stannis.

All of those were because of elements of surprise that their enemies couldn't expect. Not the minor inconvenience of the sun temporarily in their eyes.

Robert led at Gulltown, three battles at Summerhall, Stoney Sept, the Trident, and Pyke all for wins with only one defeat. Robert was a massively skilled commander with a better record than Stannis is considered that in universe. Ned wasn't present for around half of Robert's victories.

[Hugorfonics]

Stannis was winning at BW until the Tyrells arrived, moreover even if wasn't Tyrion benefited from being in a defensive fortification and his numbers were closer to Stannis' then Stannis was to Renly. When Mace arrived they vastly outnumbered Stannis.

 

None of their numbers were as bad as Stannis (Robb was relatively equal if not greater than Jaime's) and they all had an element of surprise that Stannis wouldn't have.

 

Penrose isn't a moron thus will easily sally force and hit Stannis in the rear. Loras' forces will easily smash into Stannis' either defeating him or holding him until Renly's other battalions smash Stannis.

 

All of those were because of elements of surprise that their enemies couldn't expect. Not the minor inconvenience of the sun temporarily in their eyes.

 

Robert led at Gulltown, three battles at Summerhall, Stoney Sept, the Trident, and Pyke all for wins with only one defeat. Robert was a massively skilled commander with a better record than Stannis is considered that in universe. Ned wasn't present for around half of Robert's victories.

 

 

 Stannis recived defeat after defeat from Tyrion. He never got into any gates, the city, let alone the Red Keep.

His army consisted of Renly+Stannis-Mace. Tyrion was heavily outnumbered. Even with Tywins weary soldiers and Maces men.

That's a gross assumption that Penrose would fight. Do you have any proof, or is that just conjecture?

Gulltown was Arryns massacre.

Stoneysept and Pyke had Ned present.

It's very possible that Jon or Ned was at Summerhall.

Grumkins, in this universe, are considered to live in woodsheds and grant 3 wishes, that doesn't make it true (I never said Stannis is more adept then Robert, just both more them Renly)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 Stannis recived defeat after defeat from Tyrion. He never got into any gates, the city, let alone the Red Keep.

Stannis was winning before Tywin and the Tyrells turned up. This should be obvious from the reaction in the Throne Room and the Hound ready to make his escape.

"Since the night of the battle. Lord Tywin saved us all. The smallfolk say it was King Renly's ghost, but wiser men know better. It was your father and Lord Tyrell, with the Knight of Flowers and Lord Littlefinger. They rode through the ashes and took the usurper Stannis in the rear. It was a great victory"

We know from Bronn that just before Tywin and the Tyrells arrived that the half the Gold Cloaks had given up and were about to retreat, they were clearly losing. Had reinforcements not turned up Stannis would have won. He would have taken casualties and lost much of his navy but he still would have won.

[Minsc]

 His army consisted of Renly+Stannis-Mace. Tyrion was heavily outnumbered. Even with Tywins weary soldiers and Maces men.

Stannis' army consisted of his 5,000 men and number of Renly's cavalry for around ~20,000), while Tywin had his forces (~15,000), Tyrion's (~8,000), and Mace's (~60,000).  The Lannisters and Tyrells vastly outnumbered Stannis went they hit him in the rear.

That's a gross assumption that Penrose would fight. Do you have any proof, or is that just conjecture?

The fact that Penrose isn't a moron.  If Lord Blackwood could organize a sally to hit the Lannisters at the battle of Riverrun while not knowing Robb was coming then Penrose would have done the same when knowing Renly is there and battle is soon to happen.

Gulltown was Arryns massacre.

Robert was still a commander in that victory. The same with Stoney Sept and Pyke with him being the overall commander in the latter case.

It's very possible that Jon or Ned was at Summerhall.

No, because they met up at Stoney Sept.

Grumkins, in this universe, are considered to live in woodsheds and grant 3 wishes, that doesn't make it true (I never said Stannis is more adept then Robert, just both more them Renly)

Robert has a better record and is considered better by people that served under both.  An unproven charge, I say that Stannis isn't at all better than Renly with him making many more mistakes than Renly ever did.  Heck, he repeatedly makes one of the mistakes that you charge Renly in doing in your criticism of him.

[Swordofmorning]

 

Renly went through the same shit at SE during RR while he was six as he was there during RR.

Yes, but he didnt have command there.

If Stannis and Renly's situations were reversed, would Renly have enougj will and strength to hold the castle.

[Minsc]

Yes, but he didnt have command there.

If Stannis and Renly's situations were reversed, would Renly have enougj will and strength to hold the castle.

I don't see why we should say he wouldn't. Heck, he might have just charmed Mace to joining the rebels.

[Swordofmorning]

No, some of them are, others are not. Obviously Robert is unlikely to appoint a disloyal shit to rule Storms End while he was gone. He would appoint someone his family trusted, a vassal sworn to his House or even a relative like Harbert or one of the Estermonts.

No, we really don't.

Most of them aren't. We dont know if Estermont was capable enough.

 

Yea, we really do

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Most of them aren't.

He would have picked someone who stayed loyal. Stannis was not the only person in Storms End who was against surrendering otherwise they would have mutinied and did so. They, along with Stannis, stayed loyal which clearly shows that Stannis was not the only person capable.

Stannis may have even been a hindrance. He does not possess either of his brothers charisma and ability to keep men loyal.

 We dont know if Estermont was capable enough.

And yet you are claiming with some certainity that the teenage Stannis was the only person capable of doing so. Clearly that was just hyperbole, needing to exaggerate his achievements.

Yea, we really do

You are right we do, as Renly was part of that same siege. He, unlike his brother just does not whine about it. This suggests that he would have been able to stay longer.

[Swordofmorning]

 

I don't see why we should say he wouldn't. Heck, he might have just charmed Mace to joining the rebels.

He wouldnt becoz we know about his character from Cressen. Renly never took anything seriously in his life. 

 

He would have picked someone who stayed loyal. Stannis was not the only person in Storms End who was against surrendering otherwise they would have mutinied and did so. They, along with Stannis, stayed loyal which clearly shows that Stannis was not the only person capable.

Stannis may have even been a hindrance. He does not possess either of his brothers charisma and ability to keep men loyal.

And yet you are claiming with some certainity that the teenage Stannis was the only person capable of doing so. Clearly that was just hyperbole, needing to exaggerate his achievements.

You are right we do, as Renly was part of that same siege. He, unlike his brother just does not whine about it. This suggests that he would have been able to stay longer.

Weren't there a few traitors at SE and Stannis hanged them so others wouldn't do the same?

Nope, I never claimed that Stannis was the only person in the entire 7K who was capable enough.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

He wouldnt becoz we know about his character from Cressen. Renly never took anything seriously in his life. 

Weren't there a few traitors at SE and Stannis hanged them so others wouldn't do the same?

Nope, I never claimed that Stannis was the only person in the entire 7K who was capable enough.

 

1) He certainly took becoming King seriously.

2) Sure, though they were not hanged. Would those men tried to desert had a better, more charismatic leader been left in charge? Morale would have been down, somehow I can't imagine Stannis was the right man to keep their spirits high. And his attitude towards smugglers probably scared some of them off leaving them relying on just the Onion knight.

3) You claimed he was the only person from the Stormlands. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/135785-tywin-stannis-roose-and-randyl/&do=findComment&comment=7360382 Which is pretty ridiculous. I'm glad that you are backtracking from that obviously hyperbolic statement.