Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Joffrey was the heir, not Stannis.

Joffrey was the Head of House Baratheon, and the rightful King as far as Renly is concerned, this argument is only valid if Renly knew that Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella were bastards. And guess what? He didn't. (Because Stannis refused to tell anyone before, to his great surprise and benefit, Robert is dead and that makes him King)

So he bertayed both his brothers and his nephew. 

By your logic, Stannis would have attacked Mace, and not stayed holed up in Storm's End.

30 something Stannis would had attacked 15 years old Stannis stayed. 

Nowhere is it said that the Gravedigger is Sandor, that Jon is Rhaegar's son, or that Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane either.

Which is why those are theories. 

[Sullen]

So he bertayed both his brothers and his nephew. 

He betrayed his nephew, yes.

He never betrayed his brother, though.

30 something Stannis would had attacked 15 years old Stannis stayed. 

30-something Stannis is a moron then.

Which is why those are theories. 

Being a theory doesn't make it unlikely.

In fact, there's no concrete irrefutable proof of Joffrey being a bastard either, I suppose that's just a theory as well.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He betrayed his nephew, yes.

He never betrayed his brother, though.

Brothers plural. By betraying his nephew he betrayed Robert and by trying to crown himself because of Robert's blood he betrayed Stannis, Robert and his parents.

30-something Stannis is a moron then.

That is your opinion. Seeing how he fought and won against Mance and Balon prove that he had good reasons to believe that he could win over Renly too.

In fact, there's no concrete irrefutable proof of Joffrey being a bastard either, I suppose that's just a theory as well.

There is. Cersei told so.

[Sullen]

Brothers plural. By betraying his nephew he betrayed Robert and by trying to crown himself because of Robert's blood he betrayed Stannis, Robert and his parents.

I suppose he did betray Robert.

Not Stannis though, he owed Stannis absolutely nothing.

That is your opinion. Seeing how he fought and won against Mance and Balon prove that he had good reasons to believe that he could win over Renly too.

He had a considerable advantage over Mance, and was pretty much even with Balon if the Redwyne fleet was not involved, he was actually advantaged there as well if it was,

Attacking Renly and Mace would have been suicide comparatively.

It is a stupid thing to do.

There is. Cersei told so.

How does Cersei know? She can't be sure, after all.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I suppose he did betray Robert.

Not Stannis though, he owed Stannis absolutely nothing.

He was older so by definition and by Westerosi laws he came before his younger brother. Hence he betryed Stannis too.

He had a considerable advantage over Mance, and was pretty much even with Balon if the Redwyne fleet was not involved, he was actually advantaged there as well if it was,

Attacking Renly and Mace would have been suicide comparatively.

It is you who say that the one with the biggest army wins. Mance had the biggest army, so according to you he would had been the winner. As for B's R he destroyed the Iron Fleet in their own game.

You keep talking about a man who have always fought against the odds and had won. He won over the Reach during RR, he won over IB during B'sR and he won over Mance at the Wall with 1500 knights against a 100000 host at their own terrain. 

How does Cersei know? She can't be sure, after all.

Seriously now?

[Sullen]

 

He was older so by definition and by Westerosi laws he came before his younger brother. Hence he betryed Stannis too.

No, that's only appropriate when there is no one above both of them.

Fact is, Stannis was not the Head of House Baratheon, far from it. Again, Renly owed him absolutely nothing.

 

It is you who say that the one with the biggest army wins. Mance had the biggest army, so according to you he would had been the winner. As for B's R he destroyed the Iron Fleet in their own game.

You keep talking about a man who have always fought against the odds and had won. He won over the Reach during RR, he won over IB during B'sR and he won over Mance at the Wall with 1500 knights against a 100000 host at their own terrain. 

I say biggest, better trained, and better equipped army wins, numbers aren't everything. But against Mace and Renly they are, considering their troops are even (or even better) in equipment and training.

Against Mance, he's fighting stick-wielding savages with no concrete leadership, he has the advantage by far. For Victarion, he might have destroyed them to their own game, but might have gotten support from Redwyne, which inflates his numbers considerably.  Still an impressive victory, but nowhere near a fight against all odds.

He won over the Reach in Robert's Rebellion by doing nothing and staying put, just like he could have done with Renly, not by attacking them in the fields 1 vs 20 like he was doing with Renly.

This white-washing is seriously becoming ridiculous.

 

Seriously now?

If you're going to doubt the man who talks about murdering his brother all throughout the prologue, the faceless giant that conveniently shows up after the death of another giant, or the clues spread throughout the entire series pointing to the stereotypical hero becoming even more stereotypical by virtue of royal blood, then you might just as well doubt Cersei's word.

[Lord Lannister]

I suppose I never understood why some people take issue with Stannis assassinating Renly when they seemingly have no problem with Renly sending his larger army to kill Stannis the next morning.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Prove that he didnt.

Not only does he tell Renly the specific time he will die but it is clear from the people around him that he feels guilty about it.

"Since Lord Renly died, he has been troubled by terrible nightmares," the boy had confided to his father. "Maester's potions do not touch them. Only the Lady Melisandre can soothe him to sleep."

And he uses the same assassination technique on Courtney, an assasination we know he preplanned.

"Stubborn or craven, what does it matter? Ser Cortnay Penrose seemed hale and hearty to me."

"So did my brother, the day before his death. The night is dark and full of terrors, Davos."

 

There is three options 1) Stannis is a fool 2)Stannis is heavily in denial 3) Stannis knows entirely what happened but is not about to admit that he cowardly ordered the assasination of his younger brother as he does not want to be known as a kinslayer.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No, that's only appropriate when there is no one above both of them.

Fact is, Stannis was not the Head of House Baratheon, far from it. Again, Renly owed him absolutely nothing.

Robert was the head and Stannis was second. When the 1 is dead 2 takes his place. It's that simple.

I say biggest, better trained, and better equipped army wins, numbers aren't everything. But against Mace and Renly they are, considering their troops are even (or even better) in equipment and training.

Against Mance, he's fighting stick-wielding savages with no concrete leadership, he has the advantage by far. For Victarion, he might have destroyed them to their own game, but might have gotten support from Redwyne, which inflates his numbers considerably.  Still an impressive victory, but nowhere near a fight against all odds.

He won over the Reach in Robert's Rebellion by doing nothing and staying put, just like he could have done with Renly, not by attacking them in the fields 1 vs 20 like he was doing with Renly.

 He won 100000 people at their own game, their own land. You can keep forgetting how Stannis and his men had no idea about fighting in a place like the Wall and Beyond the Wall against people who fought for their life since their birth but that doesn't make it less true.

This white-washing is seriously becoming ridiculous.

You call it white washing. I am calling it simple logic from what we know from the books where it is never mentioned that Stannis knew what Mel would do when it is mentioned that Stannis had won in battles that he was expected to lose. 

If you're going to doubt the man who talks about murdering his brother all throughout the prologue, the faceless giant that conveniently shows up after the death of another giant, or the clues spread throughout the entire series pointing to the stereotypical hero becoming even more stereotypical by virtue of royal blood, then you might just as well doubt Cersei's word.

You keep calling a battle a murder. I see no reason to continue doing it.

I suppose I never understood why some people take issue with Stannis assassinating Renly when they seemingly have no problem with Renly sending his larger army to kill Stannis the next morning.

Agree. Renly said that he would kill Stannis wasn't big deal but Stannis saying that he will destroy Renly is murder.

There is three options 1) Stannis is a fool 2)Stannis is heavily in denial 3) Stannis knows entirely what happened but is not about to admit that he cowardly ordered the assasination of his younger brother as he does not want to be known as a kinslayer.

That is what you think. There is nothing to prove that he knew what would happen before Renly's death. You can keep searching but you will not find anything from before Renly's death.

[Sullen]

Robert was the head and Stannis was second. When the 1 is dead 2 takes his place. It's that simple.

Think again.

Robert was the head, then Joffrey, then Tommen, then freaking Myrcella.

 He won 100000 people at their own game, their own land. You can keep forgetting how Stannis and his men had no idea about fighting in a place like the Wall and Beyond the Wall against people who fought for their life since their birth but that doesn't make it less true.

He won against 100k terrified and starving savages armed with sticks and stones, who didn't expect to see the medieval equivalent of tanks charge them out of nowhere, and who didn't have solid leadership.

It was not an impressive victory in the least.

You call it white washing. I am calling it simple logic from what we know from the books where it is never mentioned that Stannis knew what Mel would do when it is mentioned that Stannis had won in battles that he was expected to lose. 

I suppose it's also logical to say that Robert Strong is not made of Gregor Clegane, or that Jon is not Rhaegar's child.

Things don't have to be explicitly said, mate. Sometimes it's required to read between the lines.

You keep calling a battle a murder. I see no reason to continue doing it.

Sending a magic vagina monster to go murder a man at night when you had agreed to meet him on the field of battle the next day is not a battle, it's murder.

Agree. Renly said that he would kill Stannis wasn't big deal but Stannis saying that he will destroy Renly is murder.

Renly has the excuse of self-defense, Stannis doesn't.

Prove that he didnt.

Not only does he tell Renly the specific time he will die but it is clear from the people around him that he feels guilty about it.

"Since Lord Renly died, he has been troubled by terrible nightmares," the boy had confided to his father. "Maester's potions do not touch them. Only the Lady Melisandre can soothe him to sleep."

And he uses the same assassination technique on Courtney, an assasination we know he preplanned.

"Stubborn or craven, what does it matter? Ser Cortnay Penrose seemed hale and hearty to me."

"So did my brother, the day before his death. The night is dark and full of terrors, Davos."

 

There is three options 1) Stannis is a fool 2)Stannis is heavily in denial 3) Stannis knows entirely what happened but is not about to admit that he cowardly ordered the assasination of his younger brother as he does not want to be known as a kinslayer.

 

Exactly.

I'd say it's pretty certain it's not the first option, I'd favour 3 over 2 though.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

30-something Stannis is a moron then.

It is at this point I decided you are intentionally trolling me. 

Robert was the head and Stannis was second. When the 1 is dead 2 takes his place. It's that simple.

This is legal and the only correct view of Roberts succession, both for Storms End after his rebellion and the Iron Throne after his death. Stannis got cheated out of both. 

 

There is three options 1) Stannis is a fool 2)Stannis is heavily in denial 3) Stannis knows entirely what happened but is not about to admit that he cowardly ordered the assasination of his younger brother as he does not want to be known as a kinslayer.

The entire core of Stannis is that he is in denial. When everything is going to shit he buckles down and says "fuck it it will work out for me because I'm right".

[Trigger Warning]

It is at this point I decided you are intentionally trolling me. 

You're claiming that Stannis would knowingly attack an army 4 times the size of his own, consisting of the créme of the Reach's heavy horse whilst trapped between an enemy fortress, sitting on the anvil with the hammer ready to swing with men he claims follow him through fear  (20,000 heavy horse is scarier than a clenched jaw) and a bunch of sellswords that don't want to die for him whilst Renly has tens of thousands of men in reserve and expects to defeat his brother and you think you're being trolled when someone says that makes him a moron? 

Well then.

Wonder why he didn't fight to the death at King's Landing then.

[Minsc]

 For Victarion, he might have destroyed them to their own game, but might have gotten support from Redwyne, which inflates his numbers considerably.  Still an impressive victory, but nowhere near a fight against all odds.

Stannis had the Redwyne Fleet with him.

 

This is legal and the only correct view of Roberts succession, both for Storms End after his rebellion and the Iron Throne after his death. Stannis got cheated out of both.

Stannis never had any claim to Storm's End, thus he cannot be cheated out of it.  Nor does he have any evidence to his claim for the Iron Throne thus legally he cannot be cheated out of it. 

 

 

That's because Renly is a powerhungry limpwrist

Is there a reason that Stannis fans are so hung up on Renly being gay?

[Lord Fauntleroy]

You're claiming that Stannis would knowingly attack an army 4 times the size of his own, consisting of the créme of the Reach's heavy horse whilst trapped between an enemy fortress, sitting on the anvil with the hammer ready to swing with men he claims follow him through fear  (20,000 heavy horse is scarier than a clenched jaw) and a bunch of sellswords that don't want to die for him whilst Renly has tens of thousands of men in reserve and expects to defeat his brother and you think you're being trolled when someone says that makes him a moron? 

Well then.

Wonder why he didn't fight to the death at King's Landing then.

Renly was present with mainly his vanguard, somewhere around 10k or more generously 15k. Against Stannis' 5k that's twice the numbers most probably, thrice at the most but unlikely. Not at all crazy odds if Stannis is the militarily mindful commander which he is (and Renly is not). Once Renly was dead his men would split, some going to Stannis (as they did) and the rest are usurping dogs he does not need.

In the books Stannis was never that far out in front at the blackwater. He commanded from the back, and when the tide turned he was actually around where the remaining fleet was, and was bundled back by his troops.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Stannis never had any claim to Storm's End, thus he cannot be cheated out of it.  Nor does he have any evidence to his claim for the Iron Throne thus legally he cannot be cheated out of it. 

Stannis was Bobby's eldest younger brother, he was next in line for Lordship of the Stormlands before the rebellion. By all tradition and law he should have been made Lord. Bob just thought the heir to the throne was a higher honor, not realizing Stannis would take it as a slight. He was the heir to the throne until Joffreys birth, that's why Stannis has Dragonstone. That is evidence for his own claim. He may lack evidence for the bastardy of Joff, but you cannot say he does not have evidence for his own claim.

Is there a reason that Stannis fans are so hung up on Renly being gay?

He had a rainbow guard. That is pretty hilarious. I don't actually find anything wrong with homosexuality or gay characters, but come on. Rainbow guard? 

[Minsc]

Renly was present with mainly his vanguard, somewhere around 10k or more generously 15k. Against Stannis' 5k that's twice the numbers most probably, thrice at the most but unlikely. Not at all crazy odds if Stannis is the militarily mindful commander which he is (and Renly is not). Once Renly was dead his men would split, some going to Stannis (as they did) and the rest are usurping dogs he does not need.

In the books Stannis was never that far out in front at the blackwater. He commanded from the back, and when the tide turned he was actually around where the remaining fleet was, and was bundled back by his troops.

Renly had 20,000 men with him.  Nor do I see any reason to claim Stannis is a militarily mindful commander while Renly isn't.  Seeing how if Stannis was planning for battle he made much worse mistakes than Renly did.

 

Stannis was Bobby's eldest younger brother, he was next in line for Lordship of the Stormlands before the rebellion. By all tradition and law he should have been made Lord. Bob just thought the heir to the throne was a higher honor, not realizing Stannis would take it as a slight. He was the heir to the throne until Joffreys birth, that's why Stannis has Dragonstone. That is evidence for his own claim. He may lack evidence for the bastardy of Joff, but you cannot say he does not have evidence for his own claim.

That is nice, but Robert was still alive and thus had the power to give Storm's End to whoever he wishes or keep it for himself  and he didn't want to give it to Stannis thus it became Renly's.  His claim is based on Joff's bastardy thus if he doesn't have evidence for that than he doesn't have evidence for his claim.

 

He had a rainbow guard. That is pretty hilarious. I don't actually find anything wrong with homosexuality or gay characters, but come on. Rainbow guard? 

So? The symbol for the dominant religion in the land is a rainbow.  Must be why you have thrown out random references to his sexuality in a manner that clearly is attempt to dismiss him with the reference.

[Trigger Warning]

Stannis' force wasn't in an even near favourable position, the mere presence of en enemy garrison placed directly at his rear is enough to turn the battle even on equal terms, killing Renly in terms of the battle is also a ridiculously long shot. He's armoured head to toe with a dedicated King's Guard and probably a trail of other retainers, Renly's not even leading the vanguard either, Penrose will definitely sally and the thing is Stannis does need those men but those men will break, they don't want to die for him and his current most dedicated Florent followers will be the ones running down his men. Under these cirumstances Stannis isn't a "militarily mindful commander" else he wouldn't have put himself in such a dreadful position, he's relying on something else. 
 

• Trapped between enemy heavy horse and a garrisoned fortress
• Enemy force consists almost exclusively of knights, nobles and men at arms that can afford a mount. 
• Force consisting of sellswords and men that are fighting out of fear not love or true loyalty. 
• The terrifying aspect of thousands of heavy cavalry thundering towards you.
• The garrison sallying, attacks in the rear cripple morale in almost all historical battle circumstances. 

GRRM puts Stannis in a hopeless situation then shows the power of magic. The circumstances of this battle have been done to death on this board and a Stannis victory is never convincing, except to people that want to believe he can win barring Renly being struck by lightning... or a shadow. 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

That is nice, but Robert was still alive and thus had the power to give Storm's End to whoever he wishes or keep it for himself  and he didn't want to give it to Stannis thus it became Renly's.  His claim is based on Joff's bastardy thus if he doesn't have evidence for that than he doesn't have evidence for his claim.

This is what I don't get about you usurping pretenders. Yeah in the story there isn't genetic testing to prove Stannis' claim. But we know for a fact Joff and the others are wincest babbys. We know for a fact that Renly had a lesser claim to the throne than Stannis by the laws of inheritance. Why does Stannis get such a hard time? Because he is a hard man shaped by hard circumstances? 

 

 

GRRM puts Stannis in a hopeless situation then shows the power of magic. The circumstances of this battle have been done to death on this board and a Stannis victory is never convincing, except to people that want to believe he can win barring Renly being struck by lightning... or a shadow. 

I understand this and I don't think Stannis could have won had it come to battle. I understand this is a work of fiction and this situation was created to show off how magic is beginning to shape the plot. My (and I assume other Stan-Fans) point is that Stannis was planning on either winning or dying. This is his constant character trait. Win or die. No surrender. That's why he's so great.

[Sullen]

I understand this and I don't think Stannis could have won had it come to battle. I understand this is a work of fiction and this situation was created to show off how magic is beginning to shape the plot. My (and I assume other Stan-Fans) point is that Stannis was planning on either winning or dying. This is his constant character trait. Win or die. No surrender. That's why he's so great.

Except he fled King's Landing when his life was in danger, and fled the Blackwater, and then fled Dragonstone.

Stannis has a feeling of self-preservation, he's not going to go against Renly without a plan, it's suicide, and Stannis, by all accounts, values his life greatly. Even more than duty.

[Wavey Sauce]

Sullen is trolling you guys and you guys are falling for it lol

 

(his most recent post about if stannis did fight renly it would be suicide is doorect tho)