Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl

[Lord Fauntleroy]

He's clearly in denial here, he's lying to himself. Notice he stares at his hands, tries to justify himself ("He was going to attack me!" "I was asleep anyways!"), goes for the very  reassuring "My hands were clean.", and then right after confesses he'll die thinking of his brother, expressing intense guilt.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Unless Stannis was suicidal, he would have never rode and declared against Renly if he didn't know what was going to happen. He knew of the plan to kill Renly, he was one of the plotters. Only, after it happens, he's in shock, and denies his involvement... he did, after all, just conspire to murder his own brother, anyone would try denying such a hateful crime, even to themselves.

Again, unless suicidal or blindly following Melisandre, he would have never met with Renly on the battlefield. He planned Renly's murder, and regrets it, it's that simple.

Stannis is not a moron.

If the Lannisters know that Stannis can spill the beans to Robert at any point, that they are willing to kill to keep this secret hidden, and that Stannis is completely out of reach so that they can't get to him, then even a child would figure out that they'd go for Robert as soon as they could so that Joffrey takes power, and that any claims Stannis would make would fall on deaf ears. (Cersei even later confirms that)

Except we're specifically told that the people Stannis and Melisandre (and Dany/Victarion, for that matter) set on fire are in intense agony and scream for an elongated period of time. Being consumed by the flames before the screams stop. Even if it's what would happen in a realistic scenario, there is no mention of them passing out before dying.

If I had a nightmarish dream where I slew my brother and then woke to find him dead I'd be pretty freaked out and blame myself too. But that still doesn't convince me he premeditated the shadow-baby attack.

 

As for riding against Renly, Stannis has done other attacks that were not in his favor for the sake of his righteous claim. He went after the so-far unconquered Kings Landing and almost took the city if not for Edmures bum-fuckery. And currently Stannis is facing the trials of Winter in an attempt to liberate the North from the Boltons. There is a pattern of him going up against all odds for his claim that we cannot ignore. I firmly believe Stannis intended to meet his brother in battle that morning. 

[khal drogon]

How was it unnecessary? There were thousands of Targaryen loyalists inside and given the communications of the time, how would commanders keep such a tight control on their men as they spread out into houses and alleys? There was going to be a battle and sadly, war and battles are in essence brutality directred against other human beings.

 Have you read the description of the Sack? Babes were butchered,children killed and women raped. Iam talking about the unnecessary brutality. Now don't say it is all his men's fault and Tywin had no control. The army was a fresh one and they will be more in control especially to a Lord like Tywin.

[Sullen]

If I had a nightmarish dream where I slew my brother and then woke to find him dead I'd be pretty freaked out and blame myself too. But that still doesn't convince me he premeditated the shadow-baby attack.

What about his talks of kinslaying back on Dragonstone and his unwillingness to answer to Cressen's accusations? He was planning to kill Renly, and the nightmares made it all too much real when it happened.

As for riding against Renly, Stannis has done other attacks that were not in his favor for the sake of his righteous claim. He went after the so-far unconquered Kings Landing and almost took the city if not for Edmures bum-fuckery. And currently Stannis is facing the trials of Winter in an attempt to liberate the North from the Boltons. There is a pattern of him going up against all odds for his claim that we cannot ignore. I firmly believe Stannis intended to meet his brother in battle that morning. 

The odds were extremely in his favour when he attacked King's Landing, mate. The city garrison were the ones shitting their pants in terror there.

Going up against the Boltons is not that bad as well, especially since he's expecting desertion on the part of the Northern lords, and gets to plan the altercation. (Icy lake says hello)

He also has the support of a proven seer who guarantees him he'll win this battle.

Going against a host of 100k well trained soldiers and knights when you only have 5k of inferior quality is not going against all odds, it's downright suicide if he doesn't know what will happen. Thing is, he knew exactly what was going down, and that's why he went through with it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 Have you read the description of the Sack? Babes were butchered,children killed and women raped. Iam talking about the unnecessary brutality. Now don't say it is all his men's fault and Tywin had no control. The army was a fresh one and they will be more in control especially to a Lord like Tywin.

Which is par the course for sackings of cities. As vile as it is, it is not that unusual. Hundreds died. What was more shocking was the manner of it, Tywin offering support and then turning on him.

The city would have been sacked with similar consequences no matter what Tywin did, the difference is that it happened days/weeks earlier.

[Lion of the West]

 Have you read the description of the Sack? Babes were butchered,children killed and women raped. Iam talking about the unnecessary brutality. Now don't say it is all his men's fault and Tywin had no control. The army was a fresh one and they will be more in control especially to a Lord like Tywin.

I've read the description and I've also read the description of the sack of Tumbleton during the Dance. Both were very grisly affairs. In the Dance Daerion tried to order Ser Hightower, the commander of the army, to halt the sack because he was sickened by it, but the commander of the army could do about nothing to stop his men. I don't think that Tywin per necessity wanted to try and halt the sack given that he probably, put a good relation with his men above antagonizing them for the sake of an enemy city, but even if Tywin had wanted, what makes you think that Tywin would have more control of a battle crazed army fighting its way into a city than the Hightower, with a name I have forgotten, had more than a century before?

[redtree]

Which is par the course for sackings of cities. As vile as it is, it is not that unusual. Hundreds died. What was more shocking was the manner of it, Tywin offering support and then turning on him.

The city would have been sacked with similar consequences no matter what Tywin did, the difference is that it happened days/weeks earlier.

Men murdered, that'd happen. There is sacking and there is another level of sacking, there were unneccesary violents in sacking of KL. I can't see an army headed by Ned, which was the first non-craven RR army who arrived at the city would butchered babies,children and women. Ned was disgusted by it FGS. It's disgusting and cruel. No wonder Margaery could easily get their love

but even if Tywin had wanted, what makes you think that Tywin would have more control of a battle crazed army fighting its way into a city than the Hightower, with a name I have forgotten, had more than a century before?

Give order to simply kill the fighter would be great. Tywin could easily prevent that by telling them not to from the start but he didn't care, he offered friendship to Aerys at the start anyway. And Hobert was said to be failed miserably in stopping it, if Tywin wanted to stop and decrease the amount of unneccesary killing, he could've done that. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Men murdered, that'd happen. There is sacking and there is another level of sacking, there were unneccesary violents in sacking of KL. I can't see an army headed by Ned, which was the first non-craven RR army who arrived at the city would butchered babies,children and women.

It was a 12k army, Ned can't control every single man especially when he would have had more important things to be doing like securing the port, the gates, the treasury, the King, the royal family and the small council.

As we know with 'first night' still being practiced in the North and Jorah selling people into slavery it is impossible for someone to control everything in their border. Some things are going to fly under the radar. The North men who went South with Robb were as guilty as their Westerland counterparts of raping and pillaging from the local Riverland populace (actual allies) and were paying back their enemies 'in kind' in the Westerlands.

Had it been a rebel army who took Kings Landing there would have been rape and death as it is impossible to police such a large number of men who are faced with their enemies. It is ridiculously knave to think so in medieval times. 

Ned was disgusted by it FGS. It's disgusting and cruel. No wonder Margaery could easily get their love

No, Ned was disgusted by the lack of 'honour' in taking it more so than what actually took place inside. 

I expected to find the gates closed to us."

Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. "Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?"

"Not our men," Ned said patiently. "Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery."

It is the same reason he is disgusted for Jaime for killing a man he wanted dead, the lack of honour involved in it. Or when Littlefinger tells him that to "Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed."

The lack of honour in it was his main problem, of course he didnt like what happened inside but I doubt many did including the Lannisters. That is just a by product of war and Ned is willing to go to war when his honour is affected.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stannis warns Renly.

Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm's End and your old seat on the council and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you."

And when it first hits Dawn Renly is assassinated.

You do remember that they were going to met in battle don't you?

[Lord Fauntleroy]

You do remember that they were going to met in battle don't you?

Thank you my brother. 

[Sullen]

You do remember that they were going to meet in battle don't you?

1) Only after Stannis attacked Renly, and made that threat. Before that, not really.

2) How the hell was he expecting to destroy Renly with his meagre 5k?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1) Only after Stannis attacked Renly, and made that threat. Before that, not really.

2) How the hell was he expecting to destroy Renly with his meagre 5k?

1. Only after Renly betrayed his rightful King and brother.

2. The fact that the odds were against him was never Stannis' problem. As Tywin said "The man will fight to the bitter end and then some."  By your logic he should had given up 17 years ago when he was under siege for a year.

[Sullen]

1. Only after Renly betrayed his rightful King and brother.

Stannis didn't press his claim forth when Renly was forced into crowning himself by Lannister aggression, and has no proof of his claims nonetheless. Stannis is the aggressor, not Renly.

2. The fact that the odds were against him was never Stannis' problem. As Tywin said "The man will fight to the bitter end and then some."  By your logic he should had given up 17 years ago when he was under siege for a year.

He will fight to the bitter end and then some does not mean "He will charge into a host 20 times his strength and claim with certainty that he will destroy his brother."

Face it, Stannis was conscious of what was going to happen, he is tenacious and won't give up, but you guys paint him as being stupid and aggressive to the point of being suicidal.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

 

Stannis didn't press his claim forth when Renly was forced into crowning himself by Lannister aggression, and has no proof of his claims nonetheless. Stannis is the aggressor, not Renly.

That's because Renly is a powerhungry limpwrist who jumped the gun and crowned himself while Robert was still warm. Stannis has more tact and waited until Joffrey dared proclaim himself to assert his rightful claim.

 

He will fight to the bitter end and then some does not mean "He will charge into a host 20 times his strength and claim with certainty that he will destroy his brother."

Yes it does. It exactly means that. That's why its the "bitter end" and not a "glorious" one.

 

 

ace it, Stannis was conscious of what was going to happen, he is tenacious and won't give up, but you guys paint him as being stupid and aggressive to the point of being suicidal.

Still no quoted evidence of this, while I have quoted my own section with Stannis himself saying he didn't do it intentionally.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You do remember that they were going to met in battle don't you?

Right. And lo and be hold Stannis tells him he will be 'destroyed' if he does not surrender before Dawn and once it is dawn Renly is assassinated.

Stannis knew what was happening, he is not so much of an idiot that he thinks his 5k would destroy Renlys much larger army.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stannis didn't press his claim forth when Renly was forced into crowning himself by Lannister aggression, and has no proof of his claims nonetheless. Stannis is the aggressor, not Renly.

That is preposterous. "I had to betray my brother because the bad man made me to do it". Stannis was the older Stannis was the heir.

He will fight to the bitter end and then some does not mean "He will charge into a host 20 times his strength and claim with certainty that he will destroy his brother."

 As I said before; by your logic Stannis should had given up during RR and during BR. I am not even mention the Wall...

Face it, Stannis was conscious of what was going to happen, he is tenacious and won't give up, but you guys paint him as being stupid and aggressive to the point of being suicidal.

I will not face something that isn't in the books. Because in the books there is nowhere mentioned that Stannis knew what Mel would do.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Right. And lo and be hold Stannis tells him he will be 'destroyed' if he does not surrender before Dawn and once it is dawn Renly is assassinated.

Stannis knew what was happening, he is not so much of an idiot that he thinks his 5k would destroy Renlys much larger army.

Prove it. Give me the quote that Stannis knew what Mel was going to do. Because from your quote is proved that they would fight.

[Sullen]

 

That's because Renly is a powerhungry limpwrist who jumped the gun and crowned himself while Robert was still warm. Stannis has more tact and waited until Joffrey dared proclaim himself to assert his rightful claim.

>limpwristed

Oh, so this this is what it's about.

Mate, the show ruined your image of the character. Renly is neither limpwristed (far from it, he's overly forceful) and neither is he powerhungry (his first two plans to get rid of the Lannisters don't give him any considerable power)

He's not that gay caricature the show made him into that you guys like to bring up so much.

Yes it does. It exactly means that. That's why its the "bitter end" and not a "glorious" one.

Fighting to the bitter end /= Attacking a giant host from the get-go. It doesn't exclude playing smart and waiting for a better opportunity, mate.

It's not about a glorious end, it's about being not dying for absolutely nothing before accomplishing anything. Stannis is not the moron kamikaze you guys portray him as. If he was, he wouldn't have held Storm's End, he would have attacked Mace's host, as you claim he attacked Renly's.

Still no quoted evidence of this, while I have quoted my own section with Stannis himself saying he didn't do it intentionally.

Yeah, I can also quote Clinton saying he never had sexual relations with Lewinsky, doesn't change the fact that he did it.

People lie, you're naive as fuck if you believe Stannis to be above that.

[aryagonnakill#2]

 

 and neither is he powerhungry

 

While I agree the show changed him, the bit I have quoted I have to disagree with.  The guy crowned himself King when he had an older brother.  He wanted to be King, so he wanted power, so he was powerhungry.

[Sullen]

That is preposterous. "I had to betray my brother because the bad man made me to do it". Stannis was the older Stannis was the heir.

Joffrey was the heir, not Stannis.

Joffrey was the Head of House Baratheon, and the rightful King as far as Renly is concerned, this argument is only valid if Renly knew that Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella were bastards. And guess what? He didn't. (Because Stannis refused to tell anyone before, to his great surprise and benefit, Robert is dead and that makes him King)

 As I said before; by your logic Stannis should had given up during RR and during BR. I am not even mention the Wall...

By your logic, Stannis would have attacked Mace, and not stayed holed up in Storm's End.

I will not face something that isn't in the books. Because in the books there is nowhere mentioned that Stannis knew what Mel would do.

Nowhere is it said that the Gravedigger is Sandor, that Jon is Rhaegar's son, or that Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane either.

[Sullen]

While I agree the show changed him, the bit I have quoted I have to disagree with.  The guy crowned himself King when he had an older brother.  He wanted to be King, so he wanted power, so he was powerhungry.

His older brother doesn't matter in the succession, Renly is making a claim based on strength, not heredity.

He crowned himself because he was in danger from the Lannisters planning to murder him: he needed the support of the Tyrells if he was to rebel and stave off Lannister influence, the Tyrells want something in exchange (a Queen) and so he crowns himself.

If he was powerhungry, he would have never tried to secure Ned's regency, he'd been planning to take the throne since the very beginning.

He crowned himself because he had to, simply as that.