Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl

[Sullen]

Stannis did not know about Renly's upcoming death and fully planned on meeting him in battle. Provide evidence that Stannis planned out Renly's assassination, otherwise we cannot know for certain that he did. 

He talks about kinslaying with Mel and Cressen, you have to be willingly ignorant to say that Stannis didn't plan Renly's death. Not only that, but he's the one attacking Renly at Storm's End and threatening to destroy him right before his murder in his tent. If Stannis wasn't aware of it, that would mean he blindly followed Melisandre with no idea of what was going to happen, but I honestly doubt Stannis is so gullible/suicidal that he would do that. He has the motive, talks about it, refuses to specifically deny it, threatens to do it, feels extremely guilty about it by his own accord, and commits another assassination using the same method a few chapters later.

People arguing against his guilt are no better than people who defended OJ back in the 90's.

He lifted as much of a finger as he dared, with Jon Arryn. Had Stannis brought it to Robert as you seems to think would be best, Bobby B would have thought Stannis was just trying to better his own claim. 

If my brother was under the threat of assassination, I'd warn him, whether I thought he'd believe me or not.

To sit silently while the murder occurred, while that murder directly benefits you is extremely, extremely morally reprehensible.

Torturing prisoners is common and not unusual. Execution by burning at the stake is actually not very painful as you suffocate before being burnt usually. Hanging (without the neck-snap) is much worse. 

I suppose that Aerys was actually a very merciful ruler then, considering he opted to burn his criminals instead of hanging them.

Fact is, the author paints death by fire as extremely, extremely painful and horrific, moreso than he depicts hanging.

[Sullen]

 Double post.

 

[Sullen]

 Triple post.

 

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Hmmm.....
 In reverse order of best to worst.

 

1. Stannis. He is the least bad. He is insensitive, harsh spoken, but rarely deliberately cruel. Though a comment may be hurtful, there is a difference between hurting someone's feelings indirectly and actively wishing to do so. He also does care about "justice" at some abstract level. While perhaps not just as we would perceive it, he does sometimes do things that aren't out of naked self-interest.

2. Randyl. Not an evil person exactly but a real dick nonetheless. He is mean-spirited, viscious, petty and small minded. He doesn't try and look for peoples real gifts and talents, only asseses them for the gifts and talents he wished they had and judges them accordingly based on whether they have them or not. He is like the overbearing father who pushes his sons into sports and hates them if they don't perform well. He is also more harsh than just, (as evidenced by his "justice" in the riverlands." Than again, he was at war, and was enforcing martial law so...

And as harsh as Stannis is, I can't see him telling Brienne that a "good rape would do her good."

 

3. Roose. An awful person, but one who has committed the lesser amount of suffering when compared to Tywin. He might have sick personal tastes, ( his prima nocta ritual) but we don't know how often or how much he loves to really torture people like Ramsay. It seems he has a mental illness of some sort which he tries to manage by leeching himself "Leeches take away all the rage.... all the pain..."  By all accounts he seemed a good and loving father to Domeric, and genuinely fond of him ( Re-read the part about how he remembers Dom loving horses... almost makes me pity him a bit.)

 

4. Tywin. Im not sure he is "Evil" himself, but the one who has done the most harm. He caused untold misery and suffeirng with the sack of Kings Landing,was cold and abusive to Tyrion, and was an all around jerk. I don't fault him for the "Reynes of Castamere" though. He did what he thought he had to to protect House Lannister from harm.

 

 

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

Worst father? Randyll Tarly, pretty easily. For all of their flaws, none of the other three ventured so far as to threaten their son to leave for the Wall or die. Even Tywin didn't do that with his hated son, at least until he had a legal way to do so.

Worst person? Roose Bolton, probably.

[Lointain]

Stannis burns people alive, is accomplice in the murder of his younger brother, mutilates people that saved his life.

Tarly abuses his older son, to the point of menacing the life of Samwell if he don't join the NW and his a douchebag to a woman in belic apparatus.

Roose rapes women, and murder their husbands, order the torture of people and murder people in a treasonous fashion.

Tywin  is hard on his dwarf son (the one that later murder him), let is men pillage the Riverlands and KL (until quite recently "normal" behavior in war), shows a treasonous behavior to the Targaryens (the ones that spited, repeatadly, on his honour and pride).

So:

You work for Stannis: high risk of being burned or mutilated.

You work for Tarly: high risk of being killed if you are physically weak or treated with contempt if you are a woman.

You work for Roose: high risk of being tortured if you displease him or raped if he fancies you.

You work for Tywin: high risk of certain death if you betray him; but high probability of rewards and protection if you serve him faithfully, no matter what you did or do.

 

[Minsc]

 He is also more harsh than just, (as evidenced by his "justice" in the riverlands." Than again, he was at war, and was enforcing martial law so...

 

How is Randyll any more harsh than Stannis with his justice?

[Lord Fauntleroy]

He talks about kinslaying with Mel and Cressen, you have to be willingly ignorant to say that Stannis didn't plan Renly's death. Not only that, but he's the one attacking Renly at Storm's End and threatening to destroy him right before his murder in his tent. If Stannis wasn't aware of it, that would mean he blindly followed Melisandre with no idea of what was going to happen, but I honestly doubt Stannis is so gullible/suicidal that he would do that. He has the motive, talks about it, refuses to specifically deny it, threatens to do it, feels extremely guilty about it by his own accord, and commits another assassination using the same method a few chapters later.

People arguing against his guilt are no better than people who defended OJ back in the 90's.

If my brother was under the threat of assassination, I'd warn him, whether I thought he'd believe me or not.

To sit silently while the murder occurred, while that murder directly benefits you is extremely, extremely morally reprehensible.

I suppose that Aerys was actually a very merciful ruler then, considering he opted to burn his criminals instead of hanging them.

Fact is, the author paints death by fire as extremely, extremely painful and horrific, moreso than he depicts hanging.

For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, "I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly's dying. A green, tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood." Stannis looked down at his hands. "I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean."

Stannis did not knowingly kill his brother. He intended to meet Renly on the battlefield and end his brothers folly with steel. He didn't even kill his bastard-nephew. He is not a kinslayer in any sense. 

Stannis was not looking into an assassination with Jon Arryn, he was looking into the bastardy of his "kin" with Cersei. Stannis did not think anyone was on to them, and only fled the city when Jon died. He believed Cersei found them out and was going to kill them before they could tell Robert. There is no evidence Stannis thought she would kill Robert himself.

Aerys set people on fire, which is quite different that burning them at the stake like Mel does. Hanging is very slow and terrifying, ask Brienne. At least with burning at the stake you pass out from carbon monoxide poisoning (usually) without feeling burn-related pain. 

[Lord Lannister]

I would submit that anyone who thinks Stannis is in the same league Roose, Tywin or Randyll is beyond persuasion otherwise no matter how much the issue gets clouded with facts. That or is just trolling.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

@ Minsc.  

Stannis is less harsh than Randyll and his punishments tend to fit the crime a bit more.

He cut off the upper part of Davos' four fingers ( on left hand) for each year of smuggling. He could have easily taken all 4 fingers and on the right hand too. It sounds pretty sick and inhumane, but you have to remember its a midieval fantasy world without a highly developed sense of human dignity.

Randyll's punishments in the Riverlands seemed truly far more harsh, but not terribly just or proportionate. Losing 7 fingers for robbing 7 Septs is a far more severe punishment for a far lesser crime. Davos deprived the crown of possibly thousands of silver stags worth of tariffs and fees. The poor thief in the riverlands just wanted to survive.

Washing the Prostitute's vaj out with lye seems cruel as well and Randyll took no effort to ascertain if she knew she had the pox.

I truly think Stannis wouldn't have been as abusive toward Sam, though perhaps cold and disdainful.

Also, Stannis wouldn't have opined that rape would be a good way to correct Brienne. He treated his enemy Asha Greyjoy with more respect than Randyll treated Brienne.

Got to love this Randyll quote "  The gods made men to fight, and women to bear children. A woman's war is in the birthing bed." Shows he definitly belongs on this list

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Randyll's punishments in the Riverlands seemed truly far more harsh, but not terribly just or proportionate. Losing 7 fingers for robbing 7 Septs is a far more severe punishment for a far lesser crime.

How do you figure that? That seems to be the common punishment in Westeros.

Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night's Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters' own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters' own bucks, and it had been a choice of putting on the black or losing a hand.

Robbing from the church in the medieval ages would have been seen as the bigger crime than smuggling, especially as Davos was saving lives in the process.

 

Davos deprived the crown of possibly thousands of silver stags worth of tariffs and fees. The poor thief in the riverlands just wanted to survive.

As did Davos. He was smuggling onions. Both the thief and Davos were in a similar position.

Washing the Prostitute's vaj out with lye seems cruel as well and Randyll took no effort to ascertain if she knew she had the pox.

There seems to be some debate on this. It would not have been lye as we know it. Medieval lye was simply water that had been allowed to percolate through ashes and was quite commonly used as a cleaning agent like detergent. It was not super concentrated and did not have a high pH. It had a slightly higher than normal pH, but all detergents do. It would not burn someone's insides.

I truly think Stannis wouldn't have been as abusive toward Sam, though perhaps cold and disdainful.

Sure. He treated Sam poorly in a desperate bid to try and make him a capable heir. Some of it was cruel and fucked up but his intentions were for Sam's benefit.

Also, Stannis wouldn't have opined that rape would be a good way to correct Brienne. He treated his enemy Asha Greyjoy with more respect than Randyll treated Brienne.

Well this topic is kind of boring now. Randyll stopped Brienne from being raped, he had been constantly warned her of what was going to happen to her as she wanders around a battlezone.

She is a noble woman, what she is doing for those times is insane and she refuses to listen to (for those times) reason. The fact of the matter is Randyll stopper her from being raped, Jaime stopper her from being raped and Gendry stopped her from being raped. This is not a case of mean old misogynist Randy but someone who can see a real threat that Brieene seems to be ignoring.

And he didnt say it to Brienne, we are told this second hand by Hyles Hunt. It sounds more like he is washing his hands of the situation. "There is only so many times you can warn someone, they now only have themselves to blame"

 

Got to love this Randyll quote "  The gods made men to fight, and women to bear children. A woman's war is in the birthing bed." Shows he definitly belongs on this list

How is that 'evil' for the time they live in? No one thinks that women should be fighting, not Cat, not the women who see Brienne in armour as some kind of freak. Tarly's thoughts are horrendously outdated for the world we live in, they are the norm for middle ages.

[redtree]

Didn't Stannis burn Alester Florent because he secretly planned to surrender and give Shireen to Joffrey's faction ? I'll say he had legitimate reason for it, it was an unnecesary cruelty but Stannis had legitimate reason

[Swordofmorning]

I would submit that anyone who thinks Stannis is in the same league Roose, Tywin or Randyll is beyond persuasion otherwise no matter how much the issue gets clouded with facts. That or is just trolling.

And i agree with you. Stannis doesn't belong in this list.

 

 

As to the OP,

I hate Roose for the RW and I hate Tywin for the Tysha incident, but I really like those two characters and admire their strategies.

In fact, Tywin makes my top 5 fav list.

Randyll, I dont give a shit about.

As to who is the worst, Randyll is slightly above Roose

 

 

 

 

[khal drogon]

Tywin is the worst for me. I hate the pragmatism excuse given by his supporters. His sack of King's Landing is an example of unnecessary blood shed. That alone makes him the worst compared to Roose.

Roose is the one I enjoy the most but he is also a rapist backstabber. He is worse because he is letting his monster son live.

Stannis and Randyll are no better than each other. Both are known for their more harsher than normal justice. Randyll fare slightly better because he don't burn innocents. 

[khal drogon]

Worst father? Randyll Tarly, pretty easily. For all of their flaws, none of the other three ventured so far as to threaten their son to leave for the Wall or die. Even Tywin didn't do that with his hated son, at least until he had a legal way to do so.

Worst person? Roose Bolton, probably.

Sending his son to wall is not actually a worst thing. A lot of Lords send their third or fourth sons to Wall. From Randyll's POV Sam could atleast bring good name to his family by serving at the wall than being an embarrassment  to him.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Also, for those who hate Stannis for killing his younger brother, you do have to look at the whole "context of the times."

In the middle ages, affection between brothers was not nearly as normal or universal as it is today. English history is filled with brothers who conspire against eachother for the throne or other goods.

It's not right, but it is still the "context of the times."

Renly really was no better than Stannis in this regard. Like Stannis, he wanted the the throne, and he would have had no problem killing his older brother if he thought he would stand in his way. In fact he was preparing to do just that.

Also... is it murder when you kill someone who is at war with you? I would call it murder if Stannis ordered Renly killed back when he lived at Kings Landing, but not in the context in which it happened.

[Lion of the West]

Tywin is the worst for me. I hate the pragmatism excuse given by his supporters. His sack of King's Landing is an example of unnecessary blood shed. That alone makes him the worst compared to Roose.

Roose is the one I enjoy the most but he is also a rapist backstabber. He is worse because he is letting his monster son live.

Stannis and Randyll are no better than each other. Both are known for their more harsher than normal justice. Randyll fare slightly better because he don't burn innocents. 

How was it unnecessary? There were thousands of Targaryen loyalists inside and given the communications of the time, how would commanders keep such a tight control on their men as they spread out into houses and alleys? There was going to be a battle and sadly, war and battles are in essence brutality directred against other human beings.

[Sullen]

For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, "I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly's dying. A green, tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood." Stannis looked down at his hands. "I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean."

He's clearly in denial here, he's lying to himself. Notice he stares at his hands, tries to justify himself ("He was going to attack me!" "I was asleep anyways!"), goes for the very  reassuring "My hands were clean.", and then right after confesses he'll die thinking of his brother, expressing intense guilt.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Unless Stannis was suicidal, he would have never rode and declared against Renly if he didn't know what was going to happen. He knew of the plan to kill Renly, he was one of the plotters. Only, after it happens, he's in shock, and denies his involvement... he did, after all, just conspire to murder his own brother, anyone would try denying such a hateful crime, even to themselves.

Stannis did not knowingly kill his brother. He intended to meet Renly on the battlefield and end his brothers folly with steel. He didn't even kill his bastard-nephew. He is not a kinslayer in any sense. 

Again, unless suicidal or blindly following Melisandre, he would have never met with Renly on the battlefield. He planned Renly's murder, and regrets it, it's that simple.

Stannis was not looking into an assassination with Jon Arryn, he was looking into the bastardy of his "kin" with Cersei. Stannis did not think anyone was on to them, and only fled the city when Jon died. He believed Cersei found them out and was going to kill them before they could tell Robert. There is no evidence Stannis thought she would kill Robert himself.

Stannis is not a moron.

If the Lannisters know that Stannis can spill the beans to Robert at any point, that they are willing to kill to keep this secret hidden, and that Stannis is completely out of reach so that they can't get to him, then even a child would figure out that they'd go for Robert as soon as they could so that Joffrey takes power, and that any claims Stannis would make would fall on deaf ears. (Cersei even later confirms that)

Aerys set people on fire, which is quite different that burning them at the stake like Mel does. Hanging is very slow and terrifying, ask Brienne. At least with burning at the stake you pass out from carbon monoxide poisoning (usually) without feeling burn-related pain. 

Except we're specifically told that the people Stannis and Melisandre (and Dany/Victarion, for that matter) set on fire are in intense agony and scream for an elongated period of time. Being consumed by the flames before the screams stop. Even if it's what would happen in a realistic scenario, there is no mention of them passing out before dying.

[Sullen]

Also, for those who hate Stannis for killing his younger brother, you do have to look at the whole "context of the times."

I don't hate Stannis, I think he's a great character, I do think he is a hypocritical asshole though.

Renly really was no better than Stannis in this regard. Like Stannis, he wanted the the throne, and he would have had no problem killing his older brother if he thought he would stand in his way. In fact he was preparing to do just that.

Renly never conspired to kill Stannis until Stannis expressly said he'd kill him. Renly can claim self-defense, Stannis cannot.

Also... is it murder when you kill someone who is at war with you? I would call it murder if Stannis ordered Renly killed back when he lived at Kings Landing, but not in the context in which it happened.

If you declare war on someone with the express intent to kill him and steal his support, and then do it in the shadows instead of in battle, then yes, I'd say it's murder.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

Sending his son to wall is not actually a worst thing. A lot of Lords send their third or fourth sons to Wall. From Randyll's POV Sam could atleast bring good name to his family by serving at the wall than being an embarrassment  to him.

Sending Sam to the Wall was a quick way for Randyll to get what he wanted without being a kinslayer. But he at least entertained the notion of it, and if Sam refused he would've killed the boy. Tywin may hate Tyrion, but he never outright threatened his son with murder. Roose killing Ramsay wouldn't surprise me, but his son is a mad dog needing to be put down. If Ramsay were more demure like Domeric, I can't imagine the Rooster wanting to kill him just because he has interests other than flaying. And Stannis has no malice towards Shireen.