Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Except he fled King's Landing when his life was in danger, and fled the Blackwater, and then fled Dragonstone.

Stannis has a feeling of self-preservation, he's not going to go against Renly without a plan, it's suicide, and Stannis, by all accounts, values his life greatly. Even more than duty.

Absolutely inaccurate as far as the bold font. He values his life more than his honor, yes. And the perception of others. However duty is his breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Stannis is the physical embodiment of dutifulness. He holds Storms End until they are bordering on cannibalism. He would have died there had Davos not come. He sails around the realm to attack the Ironborn during the Greyjoy Rebellion and makes a name for himself as a naval commander (against the Iron Fleet I may remind you) at great risk to his own life. And he takes up the kingship out of a sense of duty when it would have been far easier to just give up and support Renly, who has always had an easier time with people.

As for his "fleeing", yes he did leave Kings Landing. He believed Cersei was out to kill him after Jon's death and there wasn't anything Stannis believed he could do to stop her. As I mentioned before, I do not believe Stannis thought Robert himself was in immediate danger, and duty does not factor into it. Stannis didn't flee the Blackwater, he was in the rear with the other ships that had not landed yet and after his defeat he retreated. A tactical retreat is not fleeing out of cowardice. Lastly, he left Dragonstone with a small garrison to attend to the Wall's call for help. He in no way whatsoever fled Dragonstone and some people (myself included) believe it is still under his garrison's control. 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Sullen is trolling you guys and you guys are falling for it lol

I know but it's fun to argue in the name of the one true king.

 

[Hugorfonics]

Stannis' force wasn't in an even near favourable position, the mere presence of en enemy garrison placed directly at his rear is enough to turn the battle even on equal terms, killing Renly in terms of the battle is also a ridiculously long shot. He's armoured head to toe with a dedicated King's Guard and probably a trail of other retainers, Renly's not even leading the vanguard either, Penrose will definitely sally and the thing is Stannis does need those men but those men will break, they don't want to die for him and his current most dedicated Florent followers will be the ones running down his men. Under these cirumstances Stannis isn't a "militarily mindful commander" else he wouldn't have put himself in such a dreadful position, he's relying on something else. 
 

• Trapped between enemy heavy horse and a garrisoned fortress
• Enemy force consists almost exclusively of knights, nobles and men at arms that can afford a mount. 
• Force consisting of sellswords and men that are fighting out of fear not love or true loyalty. 
• The terrifying aspect of thousands of heavy cavalry thundering towards you.
• The garrison sallying, attacks in the rear cripple morale in almost all historical battle circumstances. 

GRRM puts Stannis in a hopeless situation then shows the power of magic. The circumstances of this battle have been done to death on this board and a Stannis victory is never convincing, except to people that want to believe he can win barring Renly being struck by lightning... or a shadow. 

 

Or the lack of a shadow?

Dawn was the chosen hour."

"Chosen by Stannis," Randyll Tarly pointed out. "He'd have us charge into the teeth of the rising sun. We'll be half-blind."

 

To say Stannis was in a hopeless situation is false. He's the veteran out of the two, Renly was as green as they get. That was apparent with his positioning of the army And your right, Renly would escape, he's not leading the van. Neither is Randyll, the stratagist nor Garlan the warrior, but Loras, the kid who liked knocking off people on a horse with a stick. And if Loras gets captured, that's the Tyrell army right there

How like his brother Robert he was, even in that . . . only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution. Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He must come to battle soon, or starve.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Absolutely inaccurate as far as the bold font. He values his life more than his honor, yes. And the perception of others. However duty is his breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Stannis is the physical embodiment of dutifulness.

He had a duty to Robert, the Head of his House, his King and his brother and he ignored it. For nine months he sat on his ass knowing that Roberts life was potentially in danger and he did nothing. He ignored his duty.

He holds Storms End until they are bordering on cannibalism. He would have died there had Davos not come.

As would Renly and other Robert loyalists, they just dont feel the need to to bore everyone with the details and the constant demand for recognition.

He sails around the realm to attack the Ironborn during the Greyjoy Rebellion and makes a name for himself as a naval commander (against the Iron Fleet I may remind you) at great risk to his own life. And he takes up the kingship out of a sense of duty when it would have been far easier to just give up and support Renly, who has always had an easier time with people.

Yup. He was made Master of Ships and given a job to do much like Harrys Swyft is doing his duty by going to Braavos to ask for more money. There is nothing out of the ordinary, he was given a prized position on the Small Council as Master of Ships. He was heavily rewarded by Robert for doing his duty.

 

People who are dutiful don't tend to whine as much as Stannis. He thinks he was owed Storms End, the fealty of the Stormlands and the Handship of the King. Expecting, and be pissed, when not rewarded _enough_ for doing your 'duty' is hardly the sign of a dutiful person.

[Bob Sacamano]

Stannis warns Renly.

Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm's End and your old seat on the council and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you."

 

And when it first hits Dawn Renly is assassinated.

 

Lol

[Minsc]

To say Stannis was in a hopeless situation is false. He's the veteran out of the two, Renly was as green as they get. That was apparent with his positioning of the army

And your right, Renly would escape, he's not leading the van. Neither is Randyll, the stratagist nor Garlan the warrior, but Loras, the kid who liked knocking off people on a horse with a stick. And if Loras gets captured, that's the Tyrell army right there

 Stannis was the only veteran of the two solely out of virtue of his age.  Renly is no more green than either Robb or Robert were during their rebellion.  You mean him positioning his army so that he vastly outnumbers Stannis and is able to hit all of his Stannis' flanks if he wishes?  Stannis' positioning is vastly worse than Renly's.  Loras is a perfectly solid choice to led the vanguard with him being one of the finest knights in the realm (so similar to your pick of Garlan), furthermore he fits fully with the choices other individuals make when deciding their commander of the vanguard by both Tywin and Stannis.  Not to mention, Stannis has a much worse track record of appointing competant commanders to led a portion of his forces with him naming Imry "scouts are stupid" Florent his Lord Admiral and appointing the similarly skilled Morrigen as his vanguard commander.

 

Catelyn is both overly conservative and biased against the entire encounter.  Moreover, notice how she said he responded the same as Robert would have and Robert is considered the better commander according to many of Stannis' own men.  Moreover, Renly is hardly going to starve in his own friendly territory where he can easily ride to an allied castle to get resupplied.  Nor was there any plans for some long wait before they engaged in battle. 

[Lion of the West]

Men murdered, that'd happen. There is sacking and there is another level of sacking, there were unneccesary violents in sacking of KL. I can't see an army headed by Ned, which was the first non-craven RR army who arrived at the city would butchered babies,children and women. Ned was disgusted by it FGS. It's disgusting and cruel. No wonder Margaery could easily get their love

Give order to simply kill the fighter would be great. Tywin could easily prevent that by telling them not to from the start but he didn't care, he offered friendship to Aerys at the start anyway. And Hobert was said to be failed miserably in stopping it, if Tywin wanted to stop and decrease the amount of unneccesary killing, he could've done that. 

And that order would have changed what? The Lannister forces are made up of common men and not enuch slave soldiers like the Unsullied. There's examples from the books and history and from quotes that war is not, and most likely never will be while humans are engaging in it, as clean as you would pretend it can be. What makes you think that Tywin could have stopped it while Hobert was unable? I don't think its all that easy to tell blood-crazed soldiers that they can't do something they want to do.

[Swordofmorning]

 

As would Renly and other Robert loyalists, they just dont feel the need to to bore everyone with thhe constant demand for recognition.

 Do you really think anyone other than Stannis could've held Storm's End in such dour conditions, living on rats and everything?

 

IMO, If there were someone other than Stannis at SE they would have surrenderred at the 1st oppurtunity.

[redtree]

And that order would have changed what? The Lannister forces are made up of common men and not enuch slave soldiers like the Unsullied. There's examples from the books and history and from quotes that war is not, and most likely never will be while humans are engaging in it, as clean as you would pretend it can be. What makes you think that Tywin could have stopped it while Hobert was unable? I don't think its all that easy to tell blood-crazed soldiers that they can't do something they want to do.

It's not the same case as Hobert and Prince Daeron, the unexperienced 16 year old prince was surprised by the amount of violent after and during the sacking happened so off course it'd be difficult to stop. Tywin, the ex-hand of 20 years could've given an order not to from the start but he didn't.

I never said that it'd be "clean", but if only he gave an order, the amount of unnecessary cruelty would decrease significantly. Tywin wants to be feared and worked on his reputation to be merciless and his bannerman feared and respected him in return. His last punishment to Reyne and Tarbeck should be a good enough lesson. Would there be murdered of non-combatant and rape ? Yes, but majority of them would obey him not to if he had spoken the words

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 Do you really think anyone other than Stannis could've held Storm's End in such dour conditions, living on rats and everything?

 

IMO, If there were someone other than Stannis at SE they would have surrenderred at the 1st oppurtunity.

Of course others could. Teenage Stannis is not the only person capable of staying in the well protected Storms End. I'd imagine that Courtney Penrose and others would have done OK had been the Castellan at the time in the same situation.

 

Many would have failed but the idea that teenage Stannis was the only one capable of doing so is ridiculous.

[Minsc]

 Do you really think anyone other than Stannis could've held Storm's End in such dour conditions, living on rats and everything?

 

IMO, If there were someone other than Stannis at SE they would have surrenderred at the 1st oppurtunity.

I think Penrose and Blackfish would have been able to hold out if they were in similar situations.  Also year long sieges aren't some unknown.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

This Stannis bashing is confounding. I honestly cannot understand why he gets such a bad rap.

 

I'd like to remind everyone that the topic of this thread was originally comparing Stannis to three borderline villains (if not outright in Roose's case). Is Stanny really that fucking bad? He didn't order the genocide of an entire house, threaten to murder his own son because of an unpreventable health condition, or usurp his liege lord and king via underhanded deceit. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I think Penrose and Blackfish would have been able to hold out if they were in similar situations.  Also year long sieges aren't some unknown.

Not sure it was a year.

The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen.

We know that the siege took place after the Battle of Gulltown, after the battle of Sumerhall and after the battle of Ashford.

This Stannis bashing is confounding. I honestly cannot understand why he gets such a bad rap.

 

I'd like to remind everyone that the topic of this thread was originally comparing Stannis to three borderline villains (if not outright in Roose's case). Is Stanny really that fucking bad? He didn't order the genocide of an entire house, threaten to murder his own son because of an unpreventable health condition, or usurp his liege lord and king via underhanded deceit. 

I'm a Tywin fan but if anyone should be aggrieved belonging to that list it should be Tarly. He made a threat to his son while Stannis had his brother murdered and was contemplating doing the same to his nephew as well as having men burnt alive. And had he the means and competency there is probably a few Houses that Stannis would order the 'genocide' of.

 

edit: and it is hardly bashing. Some Stannis fans made claims about him being great, being the most dutiful or the only person capable of surviving a siege. Pointing out the discrepancies in these opinions is not bashing. This goes for Stark fans who complain about yet another 'Stark/Ned/Robb' bashing thread just because people share some opinions on characters that are not gushing of praise.

By all means disagree and prove that person wrong but complaining about them bashing or trolling is childish.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Not sure it was a year.

The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen.

We know that the siege took place after the Battle of Gulltown, after the battle of Sumerhall and after the battle of Ashford.

I'm a Tywin fan but if anyone should be aggrieved belonging to that list it should be Tarly. He made a threat to his son while Stannis had his brother murdered and was contemplating doing the same to his nephew as well as having men burnt alive. And had he the means and competency there is probably a few Houses that Stannis would order the 'genocide' of.

Tarly outright tells Sam he will be dead if he does not go into a life of celibacy because "Daddy don't want no fatties". He also promotes rape as a good lesson for Brienne just for being a warrior maid. 

As we've discussed at length, it is never explicitly proven that Stannis knew of the plot to murder Renly via magic. Hinted at, perhaps, but not outright said and thus not a certainty. And he really really did not want to burn Edric, as evidenced by Davos being raised to Handship because he saved Stannis from having to make that decision. 

There is zero evidence that Stannis would order the entire extinction of a House and I don't know why you would think that. What houses?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tarly outright tells Sam he will be dead if he does not go into a life of celibacy because "Daddy don't want no fatties".

Sam being fat has nothing to do with it. The Redwyne twins are fat and Tarly was going to have one squire for him. Sam being fat or liking to read has little to do with why he was made to join the Wall.

 

And once again, it was a threat. We have no idea if he would have carried it out but based on Sam constantly giving in it was likely that Sam was going to go. His son was a quitter and would have made an awful medieval Lord.

He also promotes rape as a good lesson for Brienne just for being a warrior maid. 

No, he does not. He actually saved Brienne from being raped and she uses his name to warn soldiers not to rape as his stance on it is very well known.

"Well now," the serjeant said, "naked steel. Seems to me I smell an outlaw. You know what Lord Tarly does with outlaws?" He still held the egg he'd taken from the cart. His hand closed, and the yolk oozed through his fingers.

"I know what Lord Randyll does with outlaws," Brienne said. "I know what he does with rapers too."

She had hoped the name might cow them

Actions speak much louder than words, especially words we don't actually see.

 

As we've discussed at length, it is never explicitly proven that Stannis knew of the plot to murder Renly via magic. Hinted at, perhaps, but not outright said and thus not a certainty.

He had him murdered.

 

And he really really did not want to burn Edric, as evidenced by Davos being raised to Handship because he saved Stannis from having to make that decision. 

And Randyll may not have wanted to 'kill' his son yet you are blaming him for a threat. You cant absolve Stannis and blame Randyll for threats they intended to do.

There is zero evidence that Stannis would order the entire extinction of a House and I don't know why you would think that. What houses?

Lannisters? Any Houses that he felt was deserving of it.

[Hugorfonics]

 Stannis was the only veteran of the two solely out of virtue of his age.  Renly is no more green than either Robb or Robert were during their rebellion.  You mean him positioning his army so that he vastly outnumbers Stannis and is able to hit all of his Stannis' flanks if he wishes?  Stannis' positioning is vastly worse than Renly's.  Loras is a perfectly solid choice to led the vanguard with him being one of the finest knights in the realm (so similar to your pick of Garlan), furthermore he fits fully with the choices other individuals make when deciding their commander of the vanguard by both Tywin and Stannis.  Not to mention, Stannis has a much worse track record of appointing competant commanders to led a portion of his forces with him naming Imry "scouts are stupid" Florent his Lord Admiral and appointing the similarly skilled Morrigen as his vanguard commander.

 

Catelyn is both overly conservative and biased against the entire encounter.  Moreover, notice how she said he responded the same as Robert would have and Robert is considered the better commander according to many of Stannis' own men.  Moreover, Renly is hardly going to starve in his own friendly territory where he can easily ride to an allied castle to get resupplied.  Nor was there any plans for some long wait before they engaged in battle. 

Where does it say Renly positions his army to outnumber stannis and attack multiple flanks? He leaves the bulk of his army behind, that's like the opposite. Stannis' positioning was away from the sun, I'd call that better. Loras himself admits that Garlan is the superior warrior. And although Stannis appointed a bad admiral, Imry was not in his service yet. And aside from Imry, Stannis picks good commanders, Davos for example.

Overly consevative against the encounter, what does that mean?

How was Cat biased?

If anyone's biased, it's the Bartheon bannermen towards Robert. Cat also says Eddard was there to curb Robert. He was the superior general saving him in battle of the bells, like Tarly is to Tyrell. Renly won't starve if defeated. And will be able to escape. His army though... If their supply lines are cut and they just faced a defeat with their king running away.

I dont think Stannis had a guaranteed victory. Far from it. If they came to steel, I think Stannis would have about as good of a chance as Renly. 

 

[Swordofmorning]

Of course others could. Teenage Stannis is not the only person capable of staying in the well protected Storms End. I'd imagine that Courtney Penrose and others would have done OK had been the Castellan at the time in the same situation.

 

Many would have failed but the idea that teenage Stannis was the only one capable of doing so is ridiculous.

I think Penrose and Blackfish would have been able to hold out if they were in similar situations.  Also year long sieges aren't some unknown.

Blackfish might, Penrose not so much.

Penrose only held SE becoz of Edric and not becoz of he was very much loyal to Renly.

Anyway, my point was, if Renly had been at SE during RR he would have given up the castle easily and so would've any other Stormlord for becoming maybe LP of stormlands.

We know, how loyal the stormlords are -

“Last  year  they  were Robert’s  men.  A moon  ago  they  were Renly’s.  This  morning they  are  yours.  Whose  will  they  be  on the  morrow?”

- Davos, ACOK

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Blackfish might, Penrose not so much.

Penrose only held SE becoz of Edric and not becoz of he was very much loyal to Renly.

Anyway, my point was, if Renly had been at SE during RR he would have given up the castle easily and so would've any other Stormlord for becoming maybe LP of stormlands.

We know, how loyal the stormlords are -

And that is why it is an idiotic point, the idea that the teenage Stannis was the only one capable of holding on. Others would have been able to as well, just like some others would have failed. And you have no idea on what an adult Renly would have done.

[Swordofmorning]

And that is why it is an idiotic point, the idea that the teenage Stannis was the only one capable of holding on. Others would have been able to as well, just like some others would have failed. And you have no idea on what an adult Renly would have done.

 

The point is - No other stormlord could've done it becoz they are a bunch of disloyal shits.

Maybe, someone like BF could've done it. Never said teenage Stannis was the only one.

 

Hmmm, we know enough about Renly and he doesn't have what it takes to go through all that shitshit at SE during RR and still resist.

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The point is - No other stormlord could've done it becoz they are a bunch of disloyal shits.

Maybe, someone like BF could've done it. Never said teenage Stannis was the only one.

No, some of them are, others are not. Obviously Robert is unlikely to appoint a disloyal shit to rule Storms End while he was gone. He would appoint someone his family trusted, a vassal sworn to his House or even a relative like Harbert or one of the Estermonts.

 

Hmmm, we know enough about Renly and he doesn't have what it takes to go through all that shitshit at SE during RR and still resist.

No, we really don't.