Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl

[Sullen]

Still "parent surrogate", basically a servant not a parent.

I think that the order of his words are very interesting daughter>Realm>Robert.

She was a girl and a sick one too. Most of the fathers in Westeros wouldn't had spared a second though about her, they would had let her in a room and forgot about her while they would had tried for another.

1. Are you implying servants are unable to show love?

2. I think the order is coincidental, actions are stronger than words as far as I am concerned.

3. I think you are demonizing the average Westerosi parent here, they very much do care for their children, whether young or not, whether they are a girl or not. Parents like Randyll (towards Samwell only) and Tywin (only towards Tyrion) are the outlier, not the norm.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. Are you implying servants are unable to show love?

2. I think the order is coincidental, actions are stronger than words as far as I am concerned.

3. I think you are demonizing the average Westerosi parent here, they very much do care for their children, whether young or not, whether they are a girl or not. Parents like Randyll (towards Samwell only) and Tywin (only towards Tyrion) are the outlier, not the norm.

1. No, I am saying that servants are not parents,  their social status is what makes all the difference. 

2. Well for me his actions show the love he had but he was unable to show in the way that most modern parents would had done.

3. She was a sickly girl and as far as I can recall she was treated better than most of the children in the books. Let's not forget how Stannis chose not to sell her as a price for someone's support.

[Sullen]

1. No, I am saying that servants are not parents,  their social status is what makes all the difference. 

2. Well for me his actions show the love he had but he was unable to show in the way that most modern parents would had done.

3. She was a sickly girl and as far as I can recall she was treated better than most of the children in the books. Let's not forget how Stannis chose not to sell her as a price for someone's support.

1. He still received love. From his parents before their death, and from his caretaker after. He should have known how to show it to his daughter.

2. I personally think his actions are rather "Eh", as far as loving his daughter goes.

3. Except he does, twice, first for Renly, and secondly for Lysa Arryn's support. (Renly refuses the first, Selyse shuts down the second)

Also, Shireen was far from one of the best treated children in the books. Tommen and Myrcella are treated better, all of the Starks + Jon are as well, Cersei and Jaime when they were children as well, all of Walder Frey's brood, Sweetrobin (despite being coddled a bit too much), all the Tyrells, the Greyjoys pre-rebellion for sure, the Martell children too. There's a reason why Shireen is said to be "The saddest child" that Cressen has ever seen.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. He still received love. From his parents before their death, and from his caretaker after. He should have known how to show it to his daughter.

2. I personally think his actions are rather "Eh", as far as loving his daughter goes.

3. Except he does, twice, first for Renly, and secondly for Lysa Arryn's support. (Renly refuses the first, Selyse shuts down the second)

Also, Shireen was far from one of the best treated children in the books. Tommen and Myrcella are treated better, all of the Starks + Jon are as well, Cersei and Jaime when they were children as well, all of Walder Frey's brood, Sweetrobin (despite being coddled a bit too much), all the Tyrells, the Greyjoys pre-rebellion for sure, the Martell children too. There's a reason why Shireen is said to be "The saddest child" that Cressen has ever seen.

1. I see him saying that he loved his parents not that he had reseved love from them.

3. Hadn't he told that he would make Renly his heis tho? I don't remember a marriage.

How many sickly, almost condemned to death girls have been treated much better?

[Sullen]

1. I see him saying that he loved his parents not that he had reseved love from them.

I think Cressen is talking of after the death of his parents, that Stannis was unloved by his brothers and the castlefolk. By all reports, Steffon and Cassandra were loving parents.

3. Hadn't he told that he would make Renly his heis tho? I don't remember a marriage.

He did, he wanted to sell her birthright to Renly for his support.

How many sickly, almost condemned to death girls have been treated much better?

Not a girl, but Bran and Urrigon are the only other two sick children that have been seen in the series.

Catelyn stayed at Bran's sides day and night, not sleeping, crying her heart out, and at Urri's death, his family went into a rage and Balon had the maester who healed him maimed to punish him.

[Stag_legion]

I think Cressen is talking of after the death of his parents, that Stannis was unloved by his brothers and the castlefolk. By all reports, Steffon and Cassandra were loving parents.

He did, he wanted to sell her birthright to Renly for his support.

Not a girl, but Bran and Urrigon are the only other two sick children that have been seen in the series.

Catelyn stayed at Bran's sides day and night, not sleeping, crying her heart out, and at Urri's death, his family went into a rage and Balon had the maester who healed him maimed to punish him.

he didn't sell Shireen's position to renly, Renly would be next in line for the throne after stannis if they hadn't gone to war. Brothers inhert before daughters! What stannis was offering at the parley was to pardon Renly's treason and give him back his titles and order of inheritance.

The key here is that stannis wanted to play by the rules, which meant Renly would be next in line unless stannis had a son. Which is exactly what he says.

[Sullen]

he didn't sell Shireen's position to renly, Renly would be next in line for the throne after stannis if they hadn't gone to war. Brothers inhert before daughters! What stannis was offering at the parley was to pardon Renly's treason and give him back his titles and order of inheritance.

The key here is that stannis wanted to play by the rules, which meant Renly would be next in line unless stannis had a son. Which is exactly what he says.

Brothers most definitively do not inherit before daughters, that's exclusively a Targaryen rule.

He was offering him what should have been Shireen, mate.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think Cressen is talking of after the death of his parents, that Stannis was unloved by his brothers and the castlefolk. By all reports, Steffon and Cassandra were loving parents.

He did, he wanted to sell her birthright to Renly for his support.

Not a girl, but Bran and Urrigon are the only other two sick children that have been seen in the series.

Catelyn stayed at Bran's sides day and night, not sleeping, crying her heart out, and at Urri's death, his family went into a rage and Balon had the maester who healed him maimed to punish him.

By all reports? I don't remember that you most likely are right but I just don't remember that.

They boys are way more different than girls and even Cat abandoned Bran, who was her specia boy, to play CSIWesteros and the Strategos Westeros.

[John Doe]

"When she asked Ser Justin if Suggs had always been that way, he grimaced. "On Dragonstone he would gamble with the torturers and lend them a hand in the questioning of prisoners, especially if the prisoner were a young woman."

Why do you think he likes questioning women exactly?

"I have twice that number here," Renly said, "and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm's End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea."

For the Lannisters, see Tyrion and Cersei's reactions when they learn that Renly and Stannis are fighting each other.

For Cat's, see her reaction at learning that Stannis is attacking Storm's End, and not the Lannisters.

Why would his faults affect whether he is a righteous man or not? In spite of everything implies more than just "Despite being grumpy."

And I'm saying that it doesn't matter for much, he's literally the only King that believes in them.

Yeah, and considering they don't all have a magic future-seeing witch, they all think the letter is bullshit.

And I think that explanation is unsatisfactory. Stannis thought Cersei knew that he knew (she didn't though, as we can can see by the quote you provided), which means he believed Robert to be in danger as well.

Why? Enemies held prisoner being executed by someone who didn't have any right doing so, it's exactly the same scenario, except that Stannis decides not to punish Selyse and takes the responsibility for the death of Sunglass.

1. All the quote tells us is that he likes to see young women suffer. Nothing about rape.

2. He probably wasn't sincere as he was trying to scare Catelyn and lied to her regarding his numbers elsewhere.  Renly was the aggressor, Catelyn saw through it pretty easily.

Regarding Catelyn you don't seem to have read past your own quote:

And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea."

"It would seem that you are the one who has forgotten Stannis," Catelyn said, more sharply than she'd intended.

"His claim, you mean?" Renly laughed. 

But feel free to quote her reaction.

 The Lannisters were surprised Stannis attacked Storm's End rather than King's Landing, not that Stannis wasn't Renly's friend.

3. It means "in spite of all of his faults". Is your explanation he is a righteous man despite of not being rightous? 

4. So what? He didn't have to listen to Mel in the first place.

5. Doesn't excuse them at all. They called for help, Stannis answered.

6. If Ned, who is obsessed with honor and duty, doesn't believe Stannis a traitor, I see no point arguing with you about it.

7. Sunglass is a traitor awaiting trial, the Lannister kids were innocent of any crime and held as hostages. Karstark had no authority while the Queen is in charge when the King and his Hand are absent.

[Sullen]

By all reports? I don't remember that you most likely are right but I just don't remember that.

They boys are way more different than girls and even Cat abandoned Bran, who was her specia boy, to play CSIWesteros and the Strategos Westeros.

I can't recall, I'm currently at work so my research of book passages is less than optimal, but him buying Stannis a marvelous fool to teach him how to laugh sounds like something a loving parent would do.

Also, we've seen that parents in Westeros care for their daughters just as much as they care for their sons, no matter how important they might be to the House. In some cases, as with Mace and Balon, they care even more for them. As for Cat, she had a good reason to leave Bran's side, and did so with a heavy heart.

[John Doe]

Brothers most definitively do not inherit before daughters, that's exclusively a Targaryen rule.

He was offering him what should have been Shireen, mate.

Brothers do inherit the throne before daughters. Olenna doesn't mention Myrcella or Shireen.

It was treason. I warned them. Robert has two sons and Renly has an older brother. How can he possibly have any claim to that ugly iron chair?

[Sullen]

 

1. All the quote tells us is that he likes to see young women suffer. Nothing about rape.

He likes to torture young women specifically, it's not far-fetched to say that there is something sexual in there.

 

2. He probably wasn't sincere as he was trying to scare Catelyn and lied to her regarding his numbers elsewhere.  Renly was the aggressor, Catelyn saw through it pretty easily.

He was absolutely sincere, else he would have not been surprised when he learned that Stannis attacked him.

Also, what would be the point of lying if he knew that Stannis would eventually attack? Cat and Robb would have immediately seen that he was bullshitting.

 

3. It means "in spite of all of his faults". Your explanation (he is a righteous man despite of not being rightous?) doesn't seem to add up much.

He's a righteous man despite not doing righteous actions for most of the time. It's a considerably better explanation than "He is grumpy, but despite everything righteous", where there is absolutely no need for the "despite everything".

 

4. So what? He didn't have to listen to Mel in the first place.

But he has reason to believe her, no other lord has that kind of insight.

Comparing his reaction to the ones of the other lords is thus flawed.

 

5. Doesn't excuse them at all. They called for help, Stannis answered.

And proceeded to strong arm them into aiding them in his quest for the Iron Throne, it's far from entirely selfless.

 

6. If Ned, who is obsessed with honor and duty, doesn't believe Stannis a traitor, I see no point arguing with you about it.

He does believe him to be a traitor and damns him while he is rotting in the black cells.

 

7. Sunglass is a traitor awaiting trial, the Lannister kids were innocent of any crime and held as hostages. Karstark had no authority while the Queen is in charge when the King and his Hand are absent.

So burning a prisoner without a trial is justice now?

Davos himself says it was ill done, if you're willing to suck up to Stannis even more than Davos, his number one fan, than I see no point in arguing either.

[John Doe]

He likes to torture young women specifically, it's not far-fetched to say that there is something sexual in there.

He was absolutely sincere, else he would have not been surprised when he learned that Stannis attacked him.

Also, what would be the point of lying if he knew that Stannis would eventually attack? Cat and Robb would have immediately seen that he was bullshitting.

He's a righteous man despite not doing righteous actions for most of the time. It's a considerably better explanation than "He is grumpy, but despite everything righteous", where there is absolutely no need for the "despite everything".

But he has reason to believe her, no other lord has that kind of insight.

Comparing his reaction to the ones of the other lords is thus flawed.

And proceeded to strong arm them into aiding them in his quest for the Iron Throne, it's far from entirely selfless.

He does believe him to be a traitor and damns him while he is rotting in the black cells.

So burning a prisoner without a trial is justice now?

Davos himself says it was ill done, if you're willing to suck up to Stannis even more than Davos, his number one fan, than I see no point in arguing either.

1. You made the claim, you have to prove it.

2. He was surprised because he didn't expect Stannis to strike at Storm's End.

3. It isn't.

4. It was still the letter that made him go.

5. By giving his men one abandoned fort and some spare boiled leather? He didn't aid them for that.

6. Quote please.  

7. Are you running out of arguments? Quote Davos. All I said is that the situations are not comparable. And where does it say anything about a trial missing?

[Minsc]

 Renly was the aggressor, Catelyn saw through it pretty easily.

When did Renly attack Dragonstone?  The fact is Stannis was the aggressor with him attacking Renly.  Stannis has absolutely zero legal authority to punish Renly thus Renly's Rebellion doesn't count as aggression against Stannis. 

 

Also the "in spite everything" quote obviously is suggesting that Stannis going to the NW is what makes him righteous despite all of his other selfish and dickish actions.  Someone being grumpy and unlikable has relevance to if someone is righteous or not.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

While Tywin and Roose are clearly in a league of their own, Randyll and Stannis are extremely similar morally speaking, with Randyll arguably being a better person than Stannis.

It seems like Stanstans suffer from the same victimization complex as their favourite character, nobody is out to get you, and Stannis being in compared to the other three characters is not some ridiculous notion or an attack at his fanbase.

SullenI can't even remotely agree with you on this. I don't want to have this argument because nothing I say about Stannis and why he rocks will ever convince you, so why try?

I will say that Stannis never ordered a woman's private parts to be scrubbed with lye. Or psychologically/physically abused his child relentlessly, culminating with a threat to literally murder them. Randyll is an awful, awful, awful person.

What's even worse is that the patriarchal system of Westeros rewards a piece of shit like Randyll because of his skill on the battlefield, while it punishes a sweetheart like Samwell Tarly for not being a "brave warrior." You can take that defense of Randyll Tarly and throw it out the window. He's awful.

[Minsc]

I will say that Stannis never ordered a woman's private parts to be scrubbed with lye.

Stannis instead just burns people alive.  Stannis hardly has any moral ground up on Randyll.  Heck, Tarly fits more with the Mannis mantel that Stannis fans try to frame Stannis with.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Stannis instead just burns people alive.  Stannis hardly has any moral ground up on Randyll.  Heck, Tarly fits more with the Mannis mantel that Stannis fans try to frame Stannis with.

Again, I'm not going to have this argument, because Its the same argument that millions of people have had on these threads for yeeeeaaaaarrss. Morality is a tricky thing in ASOIAF. We live in a pretty secular society now, but in the world of Westeros there are many who believe that burning people alive gives you magic powers. I think its awful, but Stannis is a complex character with many facets, some good some not so good.

Randyll Tarly has no "moral complexty."  He's a huge dickhole and I don't understand why people like him at all. You're crazy if you believe that he's somehow on a higher moral ground then Stannis Baratheon.

Let me ask you this, what are Randyll Tarly's motivations for why he treats Sam the way he does? Cause from where I'm standing, unlike Stannis, Randyll doesn't have any religious or apocalypse-preventing motivations to sustain why he chooses to be an unrepentant piece of crap.

[7-KG]

This sort of comment makes me really sad. Soon, Stannis haters will be arguing about either or not Cersei's children are really hers or if it's just a lie told by Stannis to attain power.

[7-KG]

On 11/01/2016 at 3:37 PM, Sullen said:

Look at the quote I provided above.

Then he would have said in spite of erring here and there, not in spite of everything.

Yeah, I'm sure them making him King is just coincidental.

He believed Melissandre because she gave him cause to believe her, showing him the future in the flames, and murdering his brother on his orders and whatnot.

Look at the quote I provided above, and consider that the quote you posted occurs after Stannis attacked Renly and told him he would kill him.

- Doesn't say he rapes anyone. He could as well be a misogynist. And even if he does so, he doesn't does it with Stannis consent.

- What?

- They make him king, so he has their support to fight the others.

Quote

"I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight."

Don't know what is so hard to understand about this quote.

- Other noblemen couldn't even believe in Melisandre in first place. And as John Doe said, it still was the letter that made him go.

- In any case, Renly was the one who crowned himself first.

[Winter's Cold]

Again, I'm not going to have this argument, because Its the same argument that millions of people have had on these threads for yeeeeaaaaarrss. Morality is a tricky thing in ASOIAF. We live in a pretty secular society now, but in the world of Westeros there are many who believe that burning people alive gives you magic powers. I think its awful, but Stannis is a complex character with many facets, some good some not so good.

Randyll Tarly has no "moral complexty."  He's a huge dickhole and I don't understand why people like him at all. You're crazy if you believe that he's somehow on a higher moral ground then Stannis Baratheon.

Let me ask you this, what are Randyll Tarly's motivations for why he treats Sam the way he does? Cause from where I'm standing, unlike Stannis, Randyll doesn't have any religious or apocalypse-preventing motivations to sustain why he chooses to be an unrepentant piece of crap.

An incompetent and disrespected Lord would be the end of House Tarly. All Randyll wanted was a competent heir. If Sam was not his firstborn son, then he would have lived a peaceful life.

Stannis betrays one brother and kinslays another. He also considers burning his nephew alive. I won't compare morality but Stannis is far more malicious to his family than Tarly is.