That Moment Arya Could've Ended the War

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywin will have guards, yes, but it's still not going to take months. Jaqen says it could take longer due to travel time. With a victim there in the castle, whom he's already scoped out and frankly probably expects Arya to name. It might take 2 days extra at the most on account of planning, but if Arya names Tywin he is not leaving Harrenhall alive.

As to the second, you have to remember how serious Robb being loose in the Westerlands is. Tywin dying will shatter Lannister morale, in all likelihood make the Tyrells at least consider backing off from the alliance, and when the news of Robb being loose in the West comes Kevan will literally have no choice but to drive him out. His bannermen will be so exhausted and demoralized that they will refuse to contemplate turning away from the West, not even to save Kings Landing. Tywin's reputation was enough to get them to; Kevan is respected but doesn't have Tywin's earthshaking reputation to keep them in line. You have to keep into account that this is a feudal army, with each lord having command of his men; put it under too much strain and it will shatter as Robb's does in OTL. 

Why would it make the Tyrells back off? The alliance is based on them getting power to the crown, if anything Tywin out the way would be better for them. One less obstacle for them in gaining control of the Kingdom.

Honestly, you are probably overestimating how 'great' Tywin is, that the Westerland lords would just give up with him dead is a little ridiculous. He has since died and the Westerland support has not dissipated.

While the above is possible it is also the perfect storm of events working against the Lannisters, it is just as likely that Kevan takes over from were Tywin left off and events play out very similarly to the events in the book. It is even possible that Jaqen only gets a clear shot to kill him after the battle of the Fords.

[Kaibaman]

I had the same feeling months ago when I did my own rereading of ACOK and made a thread about it which fortunately has survived.
Anyway I'll put up the link if anyone's interested.

By the way there's also another thread about this topic from last year which is also pretty interesting.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

That situation was always just so stupid and careless.

It was basically George saying: Here I'm going to put Arya in a situation where her decisions could potentially change the war completely, but instead I'm going to have her make the wrong choices and completely forget that she was in such a crucial and completely game changing situation.

Something like this should forever haunt Arya and instead it becomes a forgotten memory from the past.

I disagree about that, it is well written and makes a lot of sense sense, both in-story and from a litterary perspective:

a. The character's reasoning is actually quite transparent, consistently age-appropriate and burdened with day-to-day survival priorities. It's of no wonder that she does not have the insight to make the efficient choice wrt her side's war effort. 

b. That the first two names are thoughtlessly spent is something that the character herself spells out. The realization when it's too late in litterature, is a theme in itself. The author also opts to get "meta" at that point, referencing the "law of three", very often observed in myth, three choices/efforts/heroes where the first two are meant to fail in order to prepare the ground for the last and successful one (again through having the character in question spell it out).

c. Then, we are given the well-thought and seemingly correct both in the large scheme of the war and for the character's own personal needs (because that's also something we ought not to forget - the character's number one priority is her survival and liberation), executed flawlessly (btw referencing another classic, the Trojan horse myth), only to end up failing even more miserably, not due to the character's choices this time, but to unbeknown and unforeseeable circumstances and other characters' independent choices. The author chooses to subvert the aforementioned law of three, to make place for a point about fate (or, what consitutes what we call fate which, in the end, is more or less the same).

d. Given all the above, the lack of pondering on the what-ifs (why in-story the character isn't tormented about it as well as why on meta level it ends up entirely unimportant to the plot) is entirely justified as in, narratively, thematically and character-wise explicable and consistent, especially if you place it within the big scheme of the character's "flight" arc (post-KL and pre-Braavos).

[Mrs. Levi Ackerman]

it's funny that people UNDERSTAND Arya for not naming Tywin or Gregor to Jaquen but people condemn Sansa as stupid bec. she fell for a prince she barely knew. talk about misogyny and DOUBLE STANDARDS

[ShadowCat Rivers]

it's funny that people UNDERSTAND Arya for not naming Tywin or Gregor to Jaquen but people condemn Sansa as stupid bec. she fell for a prince she barely knew. talk about misogyny and DOUBLE STANDARDS

It's funny that some people need to showcase what special snowflaky exceptions they are compared to the other (unnamed, of course) people, in a thread where the specific point of comparison is never brought up by anyone.

[Slowpoke Martin]

I disagree about that, it is well written and makes a lot of sense sense, both in-story and from a litterary perspective.

Really nice breakdown of trying to make excuses for a carelessly written segment.

Arya may be young but she isn't just some random peasant. She is the daughter of a high lord and as such, she is well educated.

The situation is careless because you clearly don't seem to understand the implications of having a WORLD CLASS assassin doing your bidding. Here is a young but well educated high lord's daughter, with an assassin who is capable of killing anyone and is indebted to her.

Arya is not stupid, she knows it is the Lannisters who brought war and death to her family. The people she should be naming for Jaqen to kill should all be Lannisters, starting with Tywin who is not only the head of the family, but is LITERALLY in the same area as her and Jaqen.

It is stupid and careless writing because of all the people that are involved: a high lord's daughter, the head of the Lannisters who are at war with the Starks, and an incredibly skilled assassin who owes Arya a debt.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Did you even think properly about what you just said?

Arya may be young but she isn't just some random peasant. She is the daughter of a high lord and as such, she is well educated.

The situation is careless because you clearly don't seem to understand the implications of having a WORLD CLASS assassin doing your bidding.

Did you even think properly about what you just said?

How on earth is young Arya supposed to know that Jaqen is some magical assassin who can kill anyone in the world no matter who they are?

 

 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Did you even think properly about what you just said?

...

Yes, I did read it carefully. My reply still stands, I believe.

I suggest Piaget as a good starting point for understanding children's cognitive developement. Alternatively, one may simply observe children of that age.

[Slowpoke Martin]

Did you even think properly about what you just said?

How on earth is young Arya supposed to know that Jaqen is some magical assassin who can kill anyone in the world no matter who they are?

Oh hot damn, sick insult bro.

What exactly does her not knowing about Jaqen's capabilities have to do with what he is actually capable of? She knows he was in the black cells, so he is most definitely dangerous.

Jaqen tells her to name 3 names and he will dispose of them, he did not give her any limitations. All she needed to know is that he was willing to kill anyone for her.

[briantw]

Also worth noting that, if Tywin dies at Harrenhal, Ramsay presumably has no reason to "kill" the Stark children with Theon since the Starks would be winning the war.  I'm not sure how the timelines match up, but it could also be possible that Balon opts to attack the Lannisters instead of the Starks if Tywin dies there.  If I recall, his main objection to attacking the Lannisters in the first place was fear of Tywin's wrath should he fail.  If Tywin's dead, that fear is groundless, and Lannisport is a much riper target.

Of course, it's possible that he still takes out his frustrations on the Starks, but I highly doubt Bran and Rickon would end up "dead" in this scenario.  And if Bran and Rickon don't "die," Robb probably never hooks up with Jeyne Westerling while he's grieving, which is what ultimately led to the Red Wedding to begin with.  Theon is equally fucked though.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Oh hot damn, sick insult bro.

What exactly does her not knowing about Jaqen's capabilities have to do with what he is actually capable of? She knows he was in the black cells, so he is most definitely dangerous.

Right, dangerous not magical. Tywin had guards around him at all times. How is some 'dangerous' sellsword who managed to get himself locked in prison and needed a little girl to free him supposed to kill Tywin Lannister?

 

And why would that end the war? To Arya Joffrey and Cesei was the problem, why would some other guy not take over from Tywin when he falls over dead.

Jaqen tells her to name 3 names and he will dispose of them, he did not give her any limitations. All she needed to know is that he was willing to kill anyone for her.

So?

She has no way of knowing that he is some kind of superhero. Tywin was not a threat to her life, he barely acknowledged her existence. Chiswyck and Weese both were, men who could have killed her no matter who was leading Joffrey's armies.

[Maxxine]

it's funny that people UNDERSTAND Arya for not naming Tywin or Gregor to Jaquen but people condemn Sansa as stupid bec. she fell for a prince she barely knew. talk about misogyny and DOUBLE STANDARDS

How is the comparison between Arya & Sansa misogynistic? But anyway, people are more understanding of Arya because she is a more likable character. Sansa acts like a spoiled brat and makes multiple stupid decisions all through GoT. So yeah Arya gets a pass for one dumb decision, which she actually realizes and tries to remedy the next day. Note: Idk if Sansa if acknowledges (or realizes) that her running to Cersei played a part in Ned's death.  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

How is the comparison between Arya & Sansa misogynistic? But anyway, people are more understanding of Arya because she is a more likable character. Sansa acts like a spoiled brat and makes multiple stupid decisions all through GoT. So yeah Arya gets a pass for one dumb decision, which she actually realizes and tries to remedy the next day. Note: Idk if Sansa if acknowledges (or realizes) that her running to Cersei played a part in Ned's death.  

Sansa does acknowledge that it was a mistake to trust the Lannisters and that she paid dearly for it, and as a result she does not trust Tyrion Lannister.

Also, while it is true that, generally speaking, people tend to be more understanding of the characters they like better, it must be noted that liking a character is a very subjective issue and therefore who acts as what is accordingly subjective.

[Maxxine]

Really nice breakdown of trying to make excuses for a carelessly written segment.

Arya may be young but she isn't just some random peasant. She is the daughter of a high lord and as such, she is well educated.

The situation is careless because you clearly don't seem to understand the implications of having a WORLD CLASS assassin doing your bidding. Here is a young but well educated high lord's daughter, with an assassin who is capable of killing anyone and is indebted to her.

Arya is not stupid, she knows it is the Lannisters who brought war and death to her family. The people she should be naming for Jaqen to kill should all be Lannisters, starting with Tywin who is not only the head of the family, but is LITERALLY in the same area as her and Jaqen.

It is stupid and careless writing because of all the people that are involved: a high lord's daughter, the head of the Lannisters who are at war with the Starks, and an incredibly skilled assassin who owes Arya a debt.

Yes Arya is not stupid. That's why she realizes her mistake almost immediately. However, she is still 10 years old, prone to rash decisions based on emotions that all 10 year olds are prone to. She got pissed at Wease and acted purely off that emotion just like any other 10 yo, smart or not, would do. Once she calmed down she realized her mistake, but it was too late.

And she knows nothing about the Faceless Men so she has no idea that Jaqen is a world class assassin. And how can you say it's careless writing. Had GRRM killed Tywin off a this point, where does the plot go. The War between the North & the Lannisters essentially ends, which allows Robb to go kill the Iron Born. No Red Wedding. No Tyrion killing Tywin then getting exiled. Jaqen killing Tywin is too easy to actually happen.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yes Arya is not stupid. That's why she realizes her mistake almost immediately. However, she is still 10 years old, prone to rash decisions based on emotions that all 10 year olds are prone to. She got pissed at Wease and acted purely off that emotion just like any other 10 yo, smart or not, would do. Once she calmed down she realized her mistake, but it was too late.

And she knows nothing about the Faceless Men so she has no idea that Jaqen is a world class assassin. And how can you say it's careless writing. Had GRRM killed Tywin off a this point, where does the plot go. The War between the North & the Lannisters essentially ends, which allows Robb to go kill the Iron Born. No Red Wedding. No Tyrion killing Tywin then getting exiled. Jaqen killing Tywin is too easy to actually happen.

I suppose that the author could have found a way to get around it and come back to track for the same conclusion, if he wanted to. But, in that case, had he written Arya -being in that age and in that situation- ponder unprompted and on her own about the big picture and picked the politically optimal names, he would have irredeemably painted Arya as an unrealistic Mary Sue, IMO.

[Maxxine]

Sansa does acknowledge that it was a mistake to trust the Lannisters and that she paid dearly for it, and as a result she does not trust Tyrion Lannister.

Also, while it is true that, generally speaking, people tend to be more understanding of the characters they like better, it must be noted that liking a character is a very subjective issue and therefore who acts as what is accordingly subjective.

Yes she acknowledges that trusting Lannisters in general is a mistake. This seems to be in reaction to Joffrey not showing Ned "mercy" and the way she is being treated by Joffrey. Does she ever recognize her specific mistake of running to Cersei about Ned wanting to leave partially is to blame for Ned's death and the fact she is stuck in KL. Or does she just think it was a general Lannister betrayal. She knows Lannisters can't be trusted. She'd have to be really dense to not recognize it after all she's been through. But does she recognize the part she played. Idk if she does.

I don't understand the point of the second paragraph. Of course, liking a character is subjective. I was responding to the question of why people were more understanding of Arya than Sansa. For the people who feel that way it is because Arya is more likable. Obviously if you like Sansa more then you wouldn't feel that way or if you neutral about both characters you may have other reasons.

[Slowpoke Martin]

And how can you say it's careless writing. Had GRRM killed Tywin off a this point, where does the plot go. Jaqen killing Tywin is too easy to actually happen.

Well, that's exactly why I think it was careless from a hindsight perspective. Killing Tywin there and then would have been too easy.

From what we know after 5 books is that Tywin was the thread that held the Lannisters together in the war and we did find out exactly how special Jaqen really is.

We have Arya who hates the Lannisters, Tywin aka top lion, Jaqen the magical assassin in the same castle and NOTHING happens.

I just feel like GRRM should not have put Arya in a situation of such POTENTIAL importance, especially after what she knows the Lannisters are capable of. She should have instantly told Jaqen to kill a Lannister, but it doesn't happen.

[Roose on the Loose]

I don't think LF or Varys meant for Robb to win the WOT5K.  Tywin ate Robb's lunch.  Either LF or Varys would make short work of him.

Robb's big handicap is that he has no intelligence poilicy beyond his scouts.  Everybody spies on him, but he doesn't spy on anybody.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I don't understand the point of the second paragraph. Of course, liking a character is subjective. I was responding to the question of why people were more understanding of Arya than Sansa. For the people who feel that way it is because Arya is more likable. Obviously if you like Sansa more then you wouldn't feel that way or if you neutral about both characters you may have other reasons.

I was refering to the 'spoiled brat' part.

Personally I like both characters quite a lot, I believe both had their moments, and yes Sansa did make mistakes, but I find the characterization 'spoiled brat' too loaded and, as I said, too subjective: while a reader who likes Sansa (or Arya) may admit their failures, it's not very likely to have a productive discussion when using such characterizations.

[Maxxine]

Well, that's exactly why I think it was careless from a hindsight perspective. Killing Tywin there and then would have been too easy.

From what we know after 5 books is that Tywin was the thread that held the Lannisters together in the war and we did find out exactly how special Jaqen really is.

We have Arya who hates the Lannisters, Tywin aka top lion, Jaqen the magical assassin in the same castle and NOTHING happens.

I just feel like GRRM should not have put Arya in a situation of such POTENTIAL importance. Arya saw the Lannisters have her father killed and are at war with her family. She should have instantly told Jaqen to kill a Lannister, but it doesn't happen.

Arya didn't see the Lannisters kill Ned. She saw Joffrey, Cersei, & Ilyn Payne kill Ned. As a 10 yo she's not seeing the big picture. That's why only Joffrey, Cersei, and Payne are on her list and Lannisters in general are not. I actually feel like placing in her in that situation is good from a literary standpoint. Bc Tywin is there she able to realize the mistake, learn to see the big picture, and grow as a character. If just the Chiswicks and Weases of the world are there then she just kills 3 randoms and it serves no purpose. Giving Jaqen his own name doesn't happen and weasel soup doesn't happen.