Do you consider these characters villains?

[redtree]

First of all, why are Bran and Arya even on the list and why are people seriously considering them as villains?? Some people think Arya is evil for killing Dareon, but she was simply doing what she thought was right and her duty as a Stark; everyone knows that a deserter's sentence is death and even if it wasn't her right to pass the sentence, she still wasn't doing it for bad or evil reasons. Those same people consider Ned to be a saint, but I think Ned beheading Gared was worse than Arya killing Dareon because Gared was scared and tried to warn them of the Others, while Dareon was simply a prick who abandoned his brothers and duties for singing and whores. Everyone else she killed deserved it, as someone previously mentioned on the board, she could kill 100 Pollivers and I still wouldn't consider her a villain. And do people seriously forget all of her good qualities?? She's the most selfless character and she's willing to put her life on the line to save someone else. Considering Bran to be a villain is even more bizarre than Arya; he's not even 10 years old yet. And what has he even done wrong? Warging Hodor to save their lives and explore the cave? Holy shit he's definitely Ramsey II in the making!! Seriously, if you consider what both characters have been put through as kids, it's a shock that they really aren't murderous little beasts by now. 
TL,DR: Arya and Bran are heroes so far.

Careful, the same argument can be made for any evil character, they were simply doing what they thought was right and their duty for their family. Everyone knows that (insert the enemy's crime here) should die and even if it wasn't their right to pass the sentence, they still weren't doing it for bad or evil reason. Tywin has the same thinking pattern, he always thought he was right and whatever he had done were for the preservation and advancement of his family, not a bad or evil reason in his head

[Maya Stone]

I agree with you pretty much, I just wanted to make it clear that the list I created weren't my personal beliefs of who a villain is (in fact I only consider two of them villains myself) they were mainly the first names that I could think off that I've seen controversy about when it comes to people saying they are or aren't villains. I didn't iclude characters like Ramsay because it's pretty obvious that he's a villain, only the ones that certain people disagree about. So that's why Arya and Bran are on the list, I've seen several people say they're getting dark and some that they're villains, and while I don't agree i tried to be objective when creating the list.

Oh yeah I know, I wasn't really targeting you or anything, I understand why you chose this list, but I don't get why people feel the need to discuss whether they're evil or not even before you made this topic. 

Careful, the same argument can be made for any evil character, they were simply doing what they thought was right and their duty for their family. Everyone knows that (insert the enemy's crime here) should die and even if it wasn't their right to pass the sentence, they still weren't doing it for bad or evil reason. Tywin has the same thinking pattern, he always thought he was right and whatever he had done were for the preservation and advancement of his family, not a bad or evil reason in his head

Okay well then in that case, let's take what each person did individually without taking the reasons behind their actions; Arya killed a deserter of the nights watch. Meanwhile, Tywin had a baby and a little kid killed, their mother raped and killed, had his son's 13 year old wife raped by 50 men and made his son watch, punished and humiliated his father's mistress, abolished whole families from existence because they disrespected his family, had his men rampage the riverlands, etc etc. Yup I totally see the similarity between him and Arya. Also, you can't compare a scarred kid's actions and what she believes is right to a grown man's actions and beliefs. Also, everything Tywin and other villains did were for selfish reasons, whereas Arya didn't benefit from killing Dareon.

[Butterfreak]

I think trying to define someone as a villain kind of misses the point of George's writing. It's too simple of a definition for a character in a series where so little is straightforward, especially morality. The only characters on that list I'd lean towards calling villains would be Tywin and Petyr.  Depending on which character POV you're reading from most of them are antagonists at some point, but I don't think any of them would really qualify as villains bar the two I mentioned.

I've no idea why anyone would consider Arya and Bran villains.  A protagonist who makes questionable choices isn't a villain.

[Hugorfonics]

You can't generalize all people who were born in a slave trade simply based on that! I hope you know that just a few thousand years ago there was slavery ALL OVER THE WORLD. And there had been for pretty much as long as mankind existed, are you telling me that all those people were evil and worthy of being cruficied? Even if certain people who didn't have slaves were somehow benifiting from the system, what do you expect them to do? They don't have the power to change anything even if they were against it. And you can't expect people who grew up in a place where slavery is normal to be against it, just because we know it's evil doesn't mean they would. Imagine this: in a few thousend years everyone is a vegetarian because the meat industry is terrible! Everyone considers it immoral (because frankly it is) and they say that everyone who ate meat or weren't against other people eating meat were evil because even if they didn't torture the animals themselves they were indirectly responsible. Are those people right that the way animals are treated is immoral? yes, do they have the right to judge us for eating meat while we grew up in a society where this was normal? no. are we all evil for contributing to the way those animals are treated? I don't think so, we're not the ones doing the torturing, we don't approve of it at all, but there's very little we can do about it.

 Animals being eaten is in no way the same to slavery, at all. Ones human the others not. All slavers are evil. All olive farmers who employ slaves, are immoral. There can be no argument, slavery is as vile as it gets. 

People back in the day had slaves. Then they stopped because it's fucking evil and us humans realized that. There are many examples in history of people freeing their slaves.

[INCBlackbird]

 Animals being eaten is in no way the same to slavery, at all. Ones human the others not. All slavers are evil. All olive farmers who employ slaves, are immoral. There can be no argument, slavery is as vile as it gets. 

People back in the day had slaves. Then they stopped because it's fucking evil and us humans realized that. There are many examples in history of people freeing their slaves.

Obviously they're not the same but that's not the point. The point is that you can't say all people are evil because they were born in a society that allowed things we perceive as evil, and you can't blame them for not thinking the same way as us. Society keeps changing, it's not like our morality is the ultimate perfect morality perse. The point is that in a thousend years the people from then will probably perceive our morality as flawed as well. Does that mean we are all evil?

[Drogonthedread]

Of course people single out dany.   Its you know for family and duty if other characters go to war but for dany its a self serving act. ..but even if she decided to put that self serving act aside and help the people and free slaves or marry a person she does not love but still she is a selfserving one right ... She has already put her goal aside many times wanting to help others not that's the onlychoice she is got. .

What you never had but could have had is what more hurtinghurting wronged  than what people lost something they had. .   Ofcourse someone like robb knows whats having a family feel like and others around ..dany can know because she was robbed of it ...and it shows how much she misses them in every chapter ..

 

 

[Annara Snow]

There are a lot of Grey characters in asoiaf, it's one of the things I love about it. and I think it'd be interesting to know how many people consider certain (or all) of these grey characters villains. i've made a list with characters that I've seen debates about on the subject. I'm leaving out obvious characters (goodguys and badguys) but if you have a controversial opinion on one feel free to mention them and explain why. i'm also sure that i've missed some one this list so feel free to add anyone you think fits. So here we go, do you consider these characters villains and why? also, it would be handy to add your personal definition of what a villain is, because I've noticed that it depends from person to person, which values you hold highest and so on.

Jaime Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Tyrion Lannister
Cersei Lannister
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Theon Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Aeron Greyjoy
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Stannis Baratheon
Daenerys Targaryan

note: please refrain from personal attacks, I know this is a subject that could get out of hand as people tend to take it personal when others say negativve things about their favs (myself included) but let's try to have a civil discussion about this.
 

Tywin - definitely. 

Baelish - definitely. 

In fact, I would say those two are the prime villains of the first three books. 

Cersei - yes. Becomes villain protagonist in the last couple of books and has some anti hero qualities.

Victarion - villain protagonist with anti hero qualities.

Tyrion - anti hero. Very grey. Could go into heroic or villainous mode.

Jamie - starts as a villain/antagonist, becomes an anti hero with heroic moments, maybe moving towards flawed hero

Theon - definitely anti hero. 

Damphair - anti hero.

Bran - hero, but he has been getting somewhat morally ambiguous. Mostly because he is too young and without proper training to understand the moral implications of some of his actions, though.

Arya - something between anti hero and a dark morally ambiguous hero in the mode of Batman.

Stannis - starts as an anti hero,  later more of a flawed/morally ambiguous hero

Dany - flawed/morally ambiguous hero

Varys - hard to say whether he is a villain, but he is definitely not a hero/good guy. Still an enigma.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[redtree]

snip

Read again, i'm pointing the flaw in your reasoning system not saying that Tywin and Arya are in the same level. 

Thinking that doing something is right doesn't always make it a justified or honorable action, Robb wedded Jeyne because he thought it was right, yet it was definitely not the right thing especially during his condition and he also broke a vow. Everyone thought that they are doing something right until it turned awful so judging that it's right is just not good enough. 
And who's to judge if it's a bad/evil reason ? Is preserving your own house and safe your grandson's life through a bloody war with a rebel a bad and selfish reason ? Is killing someone who's outside her jurisdiction era and doesn't share the same code of law a bad to where she grew up a bad and selfish reason ? In the end everyone have their own reason and they can justify it 

Defining a villain from whether they think their action is right or wrong and if they think it had bad reason is not sufficient

 

[rayarts]

I think everyone on this list is BAD in SOME way, but most have an excuse/explanation attached to it (whether that justifies it or not):

Arya - she's a kid, she's got serious PTSD

Jamie - a douchebag with a heart (somewhere)

Cersei - villain-bitch, but she entered the realm of insanity

Theon - like Jamie, douchebag actions, almost unforgivable, but redemption on the horizon

Tywin - a practical, clever man with no mercy, but not explicitly unnecessarily cruel (just to Tyrion)

Tyrion - in GRRM's world he is almost a saint, especially considering his family. He feels empathy and mercy

Victarion - seriously, he is practically mentally disabled, who would count him even in?

Aeron - he is blinded by religion

Euron - Now here is a candidate for the title. So far it can be assumed that he is merciless and just feeds his

own ambitions.

Littlefinger - If he isn't a villain, then no one is. Serves his own ambitions, will screw everyone, he will literally destroy the world

Varys - wants "the greater good", sacrifices on the way, isn't unnecessarily cruel 

Stannis - blinded by dickheadedness, religion, ambition, does lots of evil for his "true aim", has aspects of a lunatic

Melissandre - blinded by religion and aims

Roose - Just like LF

Ramsay - just a random, severe psychopath

Old Walder Frey - he does evil and is cruel and merciless even to his own, and so far we haven't seen any redeeming qualities

Anyone who seriously counts Dany, Jon, Bran etc. to the villians has lost their marbles. There is no person who can avoid hurting someone/something whilst trying to be good. But their goal is to BE good, not just to have "good goals". Even in our real world, decisions will lead to bad stuff without us wanting so, what is good for one person, is bad for another. If you judge who's a villain by "Anyone who has ever hurt anyone or broke any promise" or stuff like that, then there are infants left, you gotta be realistic.

So, for me, there are only 

4 REAL VILLAINS with no excuses: Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Euron Greyjoy and Old Walder Frey

[redtree]

4 REAL VILLAINS with no excuses: Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Euron Greyjoy and Old Walder Frey

Add Gregor Clegane and his men, bunch of sadist who killed and raped and tortured simply because they can

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Old Walder Frey - he does evil and is cruel and merciless even to his own, and so far we haven't seen any redeeming qualities

What evil things does he do to his own?

 

By all accounts he looks after his own, treats his own bastards better than most other nobles.

Lord Walder would soon turn two-and-ninety. His ears had started to go, his eyes were almost gone, and his gout was so bad that he had to be carried everywhere. He could not possibly last much longer, all his sons agreed. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

 

[rayarts]

Add Gregor Clegane and his men, bunch of sadist who killed and raped and tortured simply because they can

forgot him, but he is most probable insane, too

 

What evil things does he do to his own?

 

By all accounts he looks after his own, treats his own bastards better than most other nobles.

Lord Walder would soon turn two-and-ninety. His ears had started to go, his eyes were almost gone, and his gout was so bad that he had to be carried everywhere. He could not possibly last much longer, all his sons agreed. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

 

the red wedding etc. would be enough, but raping girls/his wives, not caring who of his own lives or dies, etc. speaks volumes, too

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

the red wedding etc. would be enough, but raping girls/his wives, not caring who of his own lives or dies, etc. speaks volumes, too

He quite clearly does care who of his own lives or dies. This is made abundantly clear by the only Frey POV we have had in the series.

Raping girls his wives? When you have to resort to making up shit to justify why a character has no reedeeming qualities then your argument is looking a little weak.

 

The Red Wedding was partly motivated by the death of Freys in Robb's war. We see that in both what he is saying to Robb before hand

"No harm was done - "

"No harm, the king says? No harm? Petyr fell from his horse, fell. I lost a wife the same way, falling." His mouth worked in and out. "Or was she just some strumpet? Bastard Walder's mother, yes, now I recall. She fell off her horse and cracked her head. What would Your Grace do if Petyr had broken his neck, heh? Give me another apology in place of a grandson? No, no, no.

And during the attack.

"Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

 

Call him a villain if you want but he takes clearly takes care of his family, which is as redeeming quality.

 

[Maya Stone]

Read again, i'm pointing the flaw in your reasoning system not saying that Tywin and Arya are in the same level. 
Thinking that doing something is right doesn't always make it a justified or honorable action, Robb wedded Jeyne because he thought it was right, yet it was definitely not the right thing especially during his condition and he also broke a vow. Everyone thought that they are doing something right until it turned awful so judging that it's right is just not good enough. 
And who's to judge if it's a bad/evil reason ? Is preserving your own house and safe your grandson's life through a bloody war with a rebel a bad and selfish reason ? Is killing someone who's outside her jurisdiction era and doesn't share the same code of law a bad to where she grew up a bad and selfish reason ? In the end everyone have their own reason and they can justify it 

Defining a villain from whether they think their action is right or wrong and if they think it had bad reason is not sufficient

 

I understood that if someone thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't mean it's not an evil act, which is why I gave you other reasons that point to what makes Tywin evil and Arya not. 

[Annara Snow]

 

Tywin - a practical, clever man with no mercy, but not explicitly unnecessarily cruel (just to Tyrion)

Tysha, Elia Martell, all the children and innocent people from the Reyne and Tarbeck families, the people of King's Landing when it opened its doors to Tywin army, and all the smallfolk from the Riverlands beg to differ.

Tywin is not a practical man. He is a very petty, arrogant and vindictive man who cares for nothing but his pride. Many of the things he did out of his hurt pride, like raiding the Riverlands, we're not clever or practical at all, but the very opposite,  and he was very lucky to avoid consequences, until his luck ran out.

I'm puzzled that there are people who read the books and don't think Tywin is a villain. Many seem to be buying into his own self aggrandising justifications and the image he tried to sell to everyone. But all that glitters is not gold, and in the end, Lord Tywin did not shit gold. I think that GRRM chose the manner of Tywin's death and the terrible stench from his corpse to signify exactly what he thinks of Tywin and his legacy.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

To one degree or another, all of the Lannisters are villains on the list, by the last book, Jaime is really coming around as a person. Tyrion is at a crossroads. Tywin is clearly a villain but Cersie is in a class above all by herself. She is the quintesential evil queen. Littlefinger, aka Baelish is close to her level.

[Lordsteve666]

Jaime Lannister - No, he has mostly just been following orders as a soldier and Kingsguard. The incident with Bran was a mistake but everyone in ASOIAF makes mistakes and others have done much worse.
 

Tywin Lannister - No, just your typical lord in Westeros. He has to show some degree of power to keep hold of his lands etc and he doesn't do anything overly evil by the standards of other characters.

Tyrion Lannister - Not exactly evil but he's definitely not a shining example of humanity either. Uses whores, is a drunkard, killed his ex-girlfriend and father, had a bard killed & cooked.
 

Cersei Lannister - YES! She's only interested in herself and her family, but not in the same way Tywin looks out for the family. She'll happily sleep with her brother, order anyone killed and rather than stand up to that monster Joffrey she practically supported him.

Petyr Baelish YES YES YES! Probably the one of the worst people in the books. Everything is for himself and he'd betray his own grandmother if it got him what he wanted. He plunged the realm into chaos on more than one occasion just for his own selfish reasons.

Varys - No, he's only doing it for the good of the realm (at least that's all we know so far). He's not really done anything nasty or evil to anyone.

Theon Greyjoy - really is a grey area here. Betraying Robb and faking the death of Bran by killing those mill boys were both pretty nasty. And he's have been better to just die that act as Ramsay's arse-kissing slave, especuially as he's betrayed his own kin to survive longer in his miserable existence. I'd say he's more broken than evil.
 

Victarion Greyjoy - No, just and idiot pirate and no eorse or better than any other others in his gang.

Aeron Greyjoy - No

Bran Stark - Broken and pushed down a path of morally ambiguous choices, but not evil.
 

Arya Stark - Not evil but then again being a trained and paid assassin does open the question of how far is she willing to slip down that rabbit hole for revenge. She does have a "shit list" of people she's wanting dead I suppose!

Stannis Baratheon - No, just very very misguided. 

Daenerys Targaryan - No, she's trying to do the right thing and it often looks bad when she was to resort to torture etc but come on now, how many other rulers have that sort of thing going on in the background and are considered good? You telling me Robert Baratheon who was considered good never had someone tortured or killed a few enemies?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You telling me Robert Baratheon who was considered good never had someone tortured or killed a few enemies?

Since we have never even seen that being mentioned yes. 

[Knight Of Winter]

Tysha, Elia Martell, all the children and innocent people from the Reyne and Tarbeck families, the people of King's Landing when it opened its doors to Tywin army, and all the smallfolk from the Riverlands beg to differ.

Tywin is not a practical man. He is a very petty, arrogant and vindictive man who cares for nothing but his pride. Many of the things he did out of his hurt pride, like raiding the Riverlands, we're not clever or practical at all, but the very opposite,  and he was very lucky to avoid consequences, until his luck ran out.

I'm puzzled that there are people who read the books and don't think Tywin is a villain. Many seem to be buying into his own self aggrandising justifications and the image he tried to sell to everyone. But all that glitters is not gold, and in the end, Lord Tywin did not shit gold. I think that GRRM chose the manner of Tywin's death and the terrible stench from his corpse to signify exactly what he thinks of Tywin and his legacy.

 

so much with this.

We're talking about a guy to whom nothing is sacred - love, friendship, loyalty, compassion etc. If it stands in a way of his goal, he'll have no problems stepping over it. At the same time, he'll cheerfully order or sanction rape, murder, pillage, torture and savagery in  general to achieve whatever he wants to achieve. His plans, whatever they are, always somehow happen to leave hundreds if not thousands of victims. To consider this guy to be anything alse other than villain of the highest caliber is baffling to me.

[redtree]

I understood that if someone thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't mean it's not an evil act, which is why I gave you other reasons that point to what makes Tywin evil and Arya not. 

For the 2nd time, i'm not comparing Arya and Tywin in the same level. You said that Arya did what she did because she believes that it was right and her duty therefore she's not evil, well Tywin believed that he was right too and that it's his duty but he's a villain which is why i said that you have to be careful with your initial statement because those reasons are very easy to apply to everyone including villain

And while i think it's not evil, Arya was wrong to kill Daeron, they are in Braavos not Westeros. Different tradition, different law, and she wasn't warden of the North, not her jurisdiction.