season 5 deviations... don't make sense.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

The actual story they came up with wasn't brilliant. But its pretty obvious that sending her to Winterfell, so that a number of stories could converge made a lot of sense. If it was written better than I'm sure most people on here would see that.

But Sansa's story will be absolutely unrelated to Winterfell and the battle of ice. Combining them is idiotic.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

How do you know what Sansas story is going to be. 

 

[TepidHands]

But Sansa's story will be absolutely unrelated to Winterfell and the battle of ice. Combining them is idiotic.

indeed. There's a lot of geography and character consistency between where Sansa is in the source story and where she wound up in Season 5. You don't need a conference with GRRM to know that. On the show, the geniuses could have her leading troops by doing the can-can  in her raven feather dress and it wouldn't surprise me, because, as thread title points out, THESE deviations don't make sense. (Also see Shireen, burning, etc.)

The show defenders will brook no criticism. Let them explain Dorne. 

[Le Cygne]

indeed. There's a lot of geography and character consistency between where Sansa is in the source story and where she wound up in Season 5. You don't need a conference with GRRM to know that. On the show, the geniuses could have her leading troops by doing the can-can  in her raven feather dress and it wouldn't surprise me, because, as thread title points out, THESE deviations don't make sense. (Also see Shireen, burning, etc.)

The show defenders will brook no criticism. Let them explain Dorne. 

The can can in her feather dress!

Yeah, in the books, she actually has a story of her own, with a lot of set up and interrelated characters and storylines, and snow doesn't melt because... shock, and there are no transporters for Scotty to beam them around willy nilly.

[StepStark]

How do you know what Sansas story is going to be. 

 

Common sense? True investment in the story? Thinking while consuming? Any of these would suffice most probably, because it really doesn't take a genius to realize that Sansa in the books will never marry Ramsay or do anything even remotely similar. We don't know what Sansa's book story is going to be, but you can rest assured that her story won't even resemble that nonsense from the show, where her defining moment became something that she's never going to do in the books (marrying Ramsay and suffering brutal torture from him).

[StepStark]

What I'm ultimately saying is, given time, I think even I might have been able to come up with a better reason for marrying Sansa to the Boltons than what they came up with.

One thing is certain: neither you nor anyone else could come up with worse reason.

When things like this happen, it comes off as "scripted." Characters doing uncharacteristic things are how shows are ruined. If they wanted shock value, budget concern, acting time, whatever - it doesn't matter. They still need to write a compelling story, and they failed.

You just described the essence of the show and the main reason it is so ridiculous.

[Rhodan]

Obviously, I´m interested how these discussions will look like years in the future when (if) both books and show are complete.

[Rhodan]

(double post)

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Obviously, I´m interested how these discussions will look like years in the future when (if) both books and show are complete.

Thats a big if.

Of course it won't matter. I think there is a difficulty in separating the deviations with the quality of the writing for some people. and being unaccepting that deviations are most necessary at some points. Were they better written, most of the changes might have been accepted (except the sansa stuff, some guys can't take their precious fave characters have bad stuff happen to them). Even the Dorne decisions were essentially not terrible on their own, its just that their execution was poor. 

But I'm guessing in a couple of years time everyone will still be snarking about the same stuff, even if it turns out that the books were going in a similar direction ( Stannis and Selmy both dying early, Sansa marrying into something unpleasant etc) 

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Of course it won't matter. I think there is a difficulty in separating the deviations with the quality of the writing for some people. and being unaccepting that deviations are most necessary at some points. Were they better written, most of the changes might have been accepted (except the sansa stuff, some guys can't take their precious fave characters have bad stuff happen to them). Even the Dorne decisions were essentially not terrible on their own, its just that their execution was poor. 

But I'm guessing in a couple of years time everyone will still be snarking about the same stuff, even if it turns out that the books were going in a similar direction ( Stannis and Selmy both dying early, Sansa marrying into something unpleasant etc) 

And if Sansa marries Ramsay, I'll be the first one to congratulate you and D&D. Until then, though, all I see are the same excuses. I'd love to hear them in other careers. I can just see it: "You see, in theory, the surgery would be a success. Sadly, the patient died a excruciating death, but, you know, it looked really good on paper!" The matter of the fact is, D&D had the job of adapting two storylines that weren't that hard to begin with. Theon is literally made for TV and considered the best chapters of George in Dance, and you couldn't go wrong with adapting similar to the way it was written, as it was a success for a reason.  You can make an argument that Arianne is a harder sell, but the basic point is just streamlining the filler and focusing on the protagonists, Arianne and Doran. 

Both were failures. Winterhell and Porne are considered the weakest parts of GOT by literally every part of the critics. And when even the director admits that they had to listen to some of the critics and the backlash about Sansa's rape, it's hard to buy your argument that it was fine. Apparently, not even them still think it was fine to the audience. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

The intern will never admit full out that Winterhell and Fansa/Ramsay the Great were extremely bad because I assume he enjoyed it. Whatever.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

It's like nobody is capable of reading what I write. Oh well. 

[Rhodan]

Thats a big if.

Of course it won't matter. I think there is a difficulty in separating the deviations with the quality of the writing for some people. and being unaccepting that deviations are most necessary at some points. Were they better written, most of the changes might have been accepted (except the sansa stuff, some guys can't take their precious fave characters have bad stuff happen to them). Even the Dorne decisions were essentially not terrible on their own, its just that their execution was poor. 

But I'm guessing in a couple of years time everyone will still be snarking about the same stuff, even if it turns out that the books were going in a similar direction ( Stannis and Selmy both dying early, Sansa marrying into something unpleasant etc) 

Of course, one can say that execution is everything that matters. And the writing is arguably the root of the problems in general. I am more and more embarassed for watching the series, mostly becouse of listening to the original dialogue. Even I was annoyed by AFFC/ADWD, but this at least wasn´t problem there. 

[Winter's Cold]

And if Sansa marries Ramsay, I'll be the first one to congratulate you and D&D. Until then, though, all I see are the same excuses. I'd love to hear them in other careers. I can just see it: "You see, in theory, the surgery would be a success. Sadly, the patient died a excruciating death, but, you know, it looked really good on paper!" The matter of the fact is, D&D had the job of adapting two storylines that weren't that hard to begin with. Theon is literally made for TV and considered the best chapters of George in Dance, and you couldn't go wrong with adapting similar to the way it was written, as it was a success for a reason.  You can make an argument that Arianne is a harder sell, but the basic point is just streamlining the filler and focusing on the protagonists, Arianne and Doran. 

Both were failures. Winterhell and Porne are considered the weakest parts of GOT by literally every part of the critics. And when even the director admits that they had to listen to some of the critics and the backlash about Sansa's rape, it's hard to buy your argument that it was fine. Apparently, not even them still think it was fine to the audience. 

At least Season 5 won't be as damaging to the show as AFFC/ADWD were to the books.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

At least Season 5 won't be as damaging to the show as AFFC/ADWD were to the books.

I think we need to wait and see. I've seen quite a bit of media slamming GOT for it's lack of sensibility in dealing with violence and it's overall weak plot in season 5 for some stories.  I don't think it will get better, at least in writing terms.

On the other hand, AFFC/ADWD are good books, that do struggle a bit into finding a pace, but that do their job fairly well of moving the pieces along to their third act position. After all, if that wasn't the case, most of the scenes that did work from the show (With the exception of Hardhome, but that being an action sequence and not a dialogue scene) wouldn't have came from the books. 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

At least Season 5 won't be as damaging to the show as AFFC/ADWD were to the books.

Completely agree, GRRM is hardly blameless here, hes managed to write two books that slammed the brakes on the plot and brought things to a grinding halt for many of the main characters. He's managed to frustrate as much as entertain. Whatever you say about the show, its still an adaptation of the books in some form. D&D clearly recognised that the books at this point become extremely problematic as adaptations and changes needed to be made. I'm totally on board with many of their changes, I think they were mostly entirely necessary. What I'm NOT saying, as many posters here seem incapable of understanding, is that the writing for the show was great. The execution of those changes was pretty weak in many places. 

I can totally see moving Sansa to Winterfell, marrying Ramsey and escaping as a viable choice, I think there will be more parallels to her book plot than people are willing to admit. I also think moving Jamie to Dorne, not having Arriane but condensing that plot and making it focussed around the Sandsnakes was a good idea. Unfortunately it was very poorly executed and didn't work out. Maybe its hard for people to get their heads around this concept that decisions and execution are different. 

On the other hand, AFFC/ADWD are good books, that do struggle a bit into finding a pace, but that do their job fairly of moving the pieces along to their third act position. After all, if that wasn't the case, most of the scenes that did work from the show (With the exception of Hardhome, but that being an action sequence and not a dialogue scene) wouldn't have came from the books.  

Well of course there are great scenes from the book which are adapted, but the book isn't just about being a series of good scenes, its how those scenes fit together overall. Saying it 'struggles for pace' is a huge understatement, its glacial at times. Its really not a coincidence that the most changes were made in this season, where the most changes were clearly necessary. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Thus the "intern" is quite pleased that Sansa married Ramsay, throwing away what is sure to be an exciting time in the Vale in TWOW.

[Winter's Cold]

Thus the "intern" is quite pleased that Sansa married Ramsay, throwing away what is sure to be an exciting time in the Vale in TWOW.

Do you have an Advanced Reader Copy of Winds of Winter? If so can you describe what you mean by the exciting time in the Vale?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Thus the "intern" is quite pleased that Sansa married Ramsay, throwing away what is sure to be an exciting time in the Vale in TWOW.

TWOW , otherwise known as 'Adventures in babysitting'

[Alayne's Shadow.]

TWOW , otherwise known as 'Adventures in babysitting'

I love to see that claim when we already have Alayne I floating around, the chapter in which everyone of power in the Vale is summoned to a Tourney and including Sansa charming Harry 'The Heir'. Of course, you might as well know as much about TWOW as you continue to claim the title will be 'Rape adventures'. 

 

Which brings me to my second point. I think the issue here has been made clear - You dislike AFFC and ADWD, which is why you make the claims that those changes were necessary. I do agree that changes had to be done, but I disagree quite vocally on the manner in which they were played, that is, poorly. You, on the other hand, claim you do too, but still defend them...(?) I also think AFFC made sense as a breather and to give time for the evolution of these characters - Which is why Sansa had her political journey, Arya had her training, etc. You wanted action closer to Hardhome. I wanted character development. I think it's quite clear, then, why you dislike Sansa's storyline. It's about developing her and establishing the Vale and it's pieces, to allow then an organic development. It's not something you seem to be interested in.

And to be fair, they are slower books. They do struggle with pace. But they're also about setting up. And about development. They could use more action, I agree. But I don't necessarily dislike them, which you do. In the end, for me, season 5 is a waste. It had great potential, great actors and great production values. And AFFC and ADWD aren't perfect - Neither is George's writing - but It did had great moments, and could have been adapted correctly.