Interesting demographic shift regarding censorship: Spike in Millennials who favor Censorship

[OldGimletEye]

Nestor,

I'm saying that despite my personal offence with Holocaust denial I don't believe they should be silenced, by law.  That's all.

 

Yes, holocaust deniers are idiots. But, I rather the idiocy be out in the open, so we can know about it and deal with it. Maybe you won't ever convince the "true believers", but maybe you can at least convince reasonable people what they are -- morons.

Speech codes will not stop stupidity. Instead of making their stupidity publicly known, idiots will just speak to one another in private, at work, and in the bars, reinforcing their views and believing in their own bullshit.

And even if I am entirely wrong about all of this, I still see little gain to be made in curtailing a significant freedom just because idiots will often say idiotic things.

[Shryke]

It begs the question, what racist comments are so unacceptable that they should be banned?

On another thread here, one poster compared me to an architect of the Final Solution for defending the UK government's policy on asylum.  I would guess that that poster - if he were devising a speech code, or writing a law - would therefore be in favour my being unable to express my opinions in public, notwithstanding they are shared by about 80% of British voters, judging by opinion polls.

I don't consider that I was expressing a racist viewpoint, but the other poster clearly thought that I was.

"Jews should all be rounded up into camps and gassed to death" might be a good place to start.

[Shryke]

Yes, holocaust deniers are idiots. But, I rather the idiocy be out in the open, so we can know about it and deal with it. Maybe you won't ever convince the "true believers", but maybe you can at least convince reasonable people what they are -- morons.

Speech codes will not stop stupidity. Instead of making their stupidity publicly known, idiots will just speak to one another in private, at work, and in the bars, reinforcing their views and believing in their own bullshit.

And even if I am entirely wrong about all of this, I still see little gain to be made in curtailing a significant freedom just because idiots will often say idiotic things.

Actually the less publicly people can say stuff and the less acceptance they get for it, the less their ideas will spread. That's one of the big ways stuff changes.

[OldGimletEye]

Actually the less publicly people can say stuff and the less acceptance they get for it, the less their ideas will spread. That's one of the big ways stuff changes.

You are either a person who sees little value in free speech and, accordingly, see no problem with restricting it or you believe that the restrictions can be so narrowly tailored as to avoid major societal losses. I'm going to assume that you are the second type. Accordingly, I'd like to know how you would draw those codes. Would the codes be aimed at the most offensive forms of speech? Or would they be aimed at anything that could be considered offensive? And what is considered offensive exactly? Does anything that might make any racial group uncomfortable qualify?

I would also like to know if you believe that free public discourse has any value at all.

Also, just how many people really believe that holocaust didn't happen? Is it a significant enough problem that we need to do something about it with regulation? Is it enough of a problem that we need to regulate it, even if regulating might impinge upon discussions that we might consider legitimate?

Limiting speech might cause "big changes" as you put it, but I think that would require a huge speech code and require extensive monitoring to make work. Yes Holocaust denial is offensive, but you know, banning somebody doing it, isn't really going to make that big of changes. Because, a lot of our racial problems are a lot more subtle than that and don't involve people just saying the most outrageous things.

 

[Swordfish]

Not exactly appropriate, but i'm too lazy to keep searching...

 

Bad ethnic food is now cultural appropriation, and apparently even 'cuisines' can be disrespected.

 

http://dlisted.com/2016/07/13/lena-dunham-agrees-that-shitty-sushi-is-cultural-appropriation/#more-223758.

 

Quote

There are now big conversations at Oberlin, where I went to college, about cultural appropriation and whether the dining hall sushi and banh mi disrespect certain cuisines. 
The press reported it as, “How crazy are Oberlin kids?” But to me, it was actually, “Right on.”

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Not exactly appropriate, but i'm too lazy to keep searching...

 

Bad ethnic food is now cultural appropriation, and apparently even 'cuisines' can be disrespected.

 

http://dlisted.com/2016/07/13/lena-dunham-agrees-that-shitty-sushi-is-cultural-appropriation/#more-223758.

 

 

 

Apparently Oberlin is known for this style of discourse.

[Swordfish]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Apparently Oberlin is known for this style of discourse.

Interesting.  I'm not familiar with that school.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Swordfish,

Take a look at this article:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/30/the-new-activism-of-liberal-arts-colleges

[Swordfish]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Swordfish,

Take a look at this article:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/30/the-new-activism-of-liberal-arts-colleges

Thanks.  I'll take a look.

[lokisnow]

40 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Not exactly appropriate, but i'm too lazy to keep searching...

 

Bad ethnic food is now cultural appropriation, and apparently even 'cuisines' can be disrespected.

 

http://dlisted.com/2016/07/13/lena-dunham-agrees-that-shitty-sushi-is-cultural-appropriation/#more-223758.

 

 

 

Heh, in trying to accommodate diversity they are offending by not representing the pinnacle of potential achievement. Instead they get shitty sysco dining hall sushi to go with their shitty sysco dining hall hamburgers. Industrialization knows know cultural boundaries in its ability to reduce food to its least appetizing state. That which is reproducible is already always reproduced. 

[Swordfish]

12 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Heh, in trying to accommodate diversity they are offending by not representing the pinnacle of potential achievement. Instead they get shitty sysco dining hall sushi to go with their shitty sysco dining hall hamburgers. Industrialization knows know cultural boundaries in its ability to reduce food to its least appetizing state. That which is reproducible is already always reproduced. 

yeah.  I was gonna say that my college definitely disrespected american cuisine by ruining hamburgers and fries........  and tacos... and pasta... and just about everything...  but then my head started to hurt even trying to figure out where any of that cuisine actually came from, and who was being disrespected by each dish and I just gave up and opened a high life instead, unironically disrespecting the ancient egyptians in the process.

[Iskaral Pust]

28 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Swordfish,

Take a look at this article:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/30/the-new-activism-of-liberal-arts-colleges

I read this several weeks ago.  I hoped it was just an example of the lunacy that metastasizes in echo chambers.  It certainly offers an easy target for those complaining of PC-culture spiraling into a grievance Olympics.  I thought the claim for an hourly wage and automatic exam passes while engaging in "activism" was peak cluelessness.  Combining entitlement, hand-out culture and social promotion was a perfect trifecta of conservative-bait. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I read this several weeks ago.  I hoped it was just an example of the lunacy that metastasizes in echo chambers.  It certainly offers an easy target for those complaining of PC-culture spiraling into a grievance Olympics.  I thought the claim for an hourly wage and automatic exam passes while engaging in "activism" was peak cluelessness.  Combining entitlement, hand-out culture and social promotion was a perfect trifecta of conservative-bait. 

Automatic exam passes in exchange for activism?  What the hell???

[Iskaral Pust]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Automatic exam passes in exchange for activism?  What the hell???

That was one of the main demands by striking students at Oberlin: that they be paid an hourly wage for time spent on activism (planning campaigns, demonstrations, raising awareness, etc) and that they receive an automatic passing grade (I think it was B+) in any class because their activism would make them miss classes and study time.  Their rationale is that they are making the university a better place and therefore should be compensated as employees of university and not discriminated against by the evil anglo, hetero patriarchy of meritocratic exam grading.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

That was one of the main demands by striking students at Oberlin: that they be paid an hourly wage for time spent on activism (planning campaigns, demonstrations, raising awareness, etc) and that they receive an automatic passing grade (I think it was B+) in any class because their activism would make them miss classes and study time.  Their rationale is that they are making the university a better place and therefore should be compensated as employees of university and not discriminated against by the evil anglo, hetero patriarchy of meritocratic exam grading.

That is impressively self-absorbed.

[lokisnow]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That is impressively self-absorbed.

Just like the show "Girls"

[Iskaral Pust]

50 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Just like the show "Girls"

That was my reaction too.  I wondered if there was a cross-over episode or something.  

[DireWolfSpirit]

I'm still amazed that for a few yrs, while living in Vegas, I was regularly able to get Sushi at our neighborhood 7-11 convenience store. It was actually pretty tasty lololol.

My idealistic side wants to believe in the virtue of an open society, with freedom from censorship and theocracy, as the savings grace from things like Jihadist and Fascists in the long run. It is all very frustrating when you wake up to headlines of terror in Nice and Trump rising in the polls. Theres always these calls made, in the face of terror attacks, where we have the Newt Gingrich's of society, call for citizens to take a litmus test over Sharia beliefs. It's just another form of "Thought Police" mentality. The twentieth century soundly demonstrated, that can never work. We are either an open, free (uncensored) society or we are not America (or Western Civ) anymore?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Just like the show "Girls"

I've never seen "Girls" but just read a synopsis.  It does appear that one of the lead characters is an Oberlin College graduate.  Wow.

DWS,

I agree.  Censorship only gives those out of power the opportunity to censor those in power once they gain power.  Those advocating censorship never believe that.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

13 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That is impressively self-absorbed.

 

9 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Just like the show "Girls"

 

8 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

That was my reaction too.  I wondered if there was a cross-over episode or something.  

I don't get this. I know that Lena Dunham is an easy target. I get that her position on appropriative sushi is unpopular and, in my mind, kind of stupid. And she went to Oberlin and spoke out in support of some of what's going on there, and she is therefore an easy target. But the reality is that she is a creative artist, and her creations are not simple polemics. What she puts into her show is more complicated than some news snippet about entitled millennials. It's true that there are very entitled and self-absorbed characters on the show Girls, but the show is not. In fact, much of the humor of the show consists of Dunham's character and Allison William's characters -  by far the two most self-absorbed characters on the show - constantly having the piss taken out of them and being brought down a peg for their self-absorption and obliviousness.