Harrenhal: Was the tournament fixed?

[purple-eyes]

 

No, its an old SSM. Maybe an audio, because its difficult to find (especially when you don;t remember he exact wording for searching). Reddit is blocked at my office, but I can see a reference when I search from a reddit page that includes "..... has stated that Roberts Rebellion took place 1-2 years after the tourney, ..." https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1o9fdd/spoilers_all_selmys_recollection_of_harrenhal/
I'm pretty sure that's someone else referencing that GRRM has stated...
We also have Jaime being 15 at Harrenhal and 17 at the end of the war, which points towards Harrenhal being a year before the war.
 

 

I guess I forgot who I was dealing with. Not many people who can literally quote that he faced four knights of the KG and in the same breath insist that it was actually 5, because one of them was named in the next sentence.

So you are saying that Aerys took Jaime, but didn't induct him into the KG, then Whent announced the tourney, clearly some time in the future, then Aerys held Jaime, then when the tourney finally happened inducted him into the KG? That doesn't seem to make sense at all.
I think rather the tourney was in early 281, which fits well with all the other data points we have bar one, and that the one passage that you refer to that seems to push it to the end is clumsily written and is talking about the end of 280.

What makes you say that?

It is rumoured he was doing something. Deposing him might be further than he was ready to go yet. And its only rumoured.

So? Dayne is his best friend? Barristan is just some guy in his father's bodyguard.

Too much is made of this with very fine details that don't stand up. We don;t know what Barristan meant by that. If he was a better knight, he would have won, period. Thats his belief system, the best knights win, even though he also understands that any sort of combat is uncertain etc, his belief system is still that the best knights win - winning showed that they were the best that day.

We have no idea what it took to win this time, 1 lance or 3, or 5. It just wasn't legendary 12-lance bout.

A subjective memory many years latter. It just means that he was outstanding that day, his greatest day, not that literally no one else was good enough to touch him.

We don't know what he desperately needs, but you are way out on an invented limb here.

Yep. Thats why Ned refers to him as the finest knight that he ever saw. Because he was the diving type.

Possibilities are not enough. Data point hints are required as well.

 

I completely agree. BUT, inspiration can create inspired performances and at high levels a few % increase in performance can appear to be a radical difference. Apparently it did to Jorah. But Jorah must have already had the basic skills required, he just didn't usually put them all together consistently enough to do well at the top level.
Thats like a Japan beating South Africa in the rugby world cup.

Rhaegar OTOH is like the All Blacks lifting their game by a few % to smash France by 60 when most people expected them to win by 10-15. And that assumes he really was inspired, instead of outsiders see a top performance and labelling it 'inspired' and 'unstoppable' when really its just 'that day' when things come together just right.
 

Ned does not know if arthur did something not very good. 

He is just like a fanboy of dayne as most of other boys. 

Honestly based on current timeline, tourney happened roughly two years before the ending of the rebellion. And One year before the start. 

Rhaegar was missing about one year. 

He left in early 282, came back in early 283. 

Rebellion started in the end of 282. So lyanna should disappear about the middle of the year. 

This made me wonder what rhaegar did before kidnapping lyanna. 

Maybe he visited green men? 

 

[purple-eyes]

 

No, its an old SSM. Maybe an audio, because its difficult to find (especially when you don;t remember he exact wording for searching). Reddit is blocked at my office, but I can see a reference when I search from a reddit page that includes "..... has stated that Roberts Rebellion took place 1-2 years after the tourney, ..." https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1o9fdd/spoilers_all_selmys_recollection_of_harrenhal/
I'm pretty sure that's someone else referencing that GRRM has stated...
We also have Jaime being 15 at Harrenhal and 17 at the end of the war, which points towards Harrenhal being a year before the war.
 

I guess I forgot who I was dealing with. Not many people who can literally quote that he faced four knights of the KG and in the same breath insist that it was actually 5, because one of them was named in the next sentence.

So you are saying that Aerys took Jaime, but didn't induct him into the KG, then Whent announced the tourney, clearly some time in the future, then Aerys held Jaime, then when the tourney finally happened inducted him into the KG? That doesn't seem to make sense at all.
I think rather the tourney was in early 281, which fits well with all the other data points we have bar one, and that the one passage that you refer to that seems to push it to the end is clumsily written and is talking about the end of 280.

 

 

Honestly based on the current timeline, it seems like Rhaegar left the DS or KL in the very early of 282, but the rebellion ended in the end of 283. So it was roughly two years beteween the tourney and the ending of robert rebellion. 

but anyway, toourney can be in the middle of the 281, I agree, but after the world book in 2014, it does seem that tourney was pushed to the late of the year. he may say in an old ssm that tourney happened 1-2 year before robert rebellion. I am not sure he is talking about the ending or start, either one, it does fit the current timeline. 

rhaegar is missing from early 282 to early 283, rebellion started in the late of 282, and Lyanna was found in the end of 283. tourney was in the late of 281. 

I may not word my sentences very well, 

What I meant was that, according to the world book, Cersei arranged Jaime to join KG. then after one month, Jaime received a letter to ask him to attend the tourney to officially join the KG. Tywin was mad and left his position. book also said after Tywin resigned, whent announced a tourney in 281. (no relationship, just a timely order).  

if you read that part carefully, the time order is this IMHO

cersei met jaime, cersei arranged him to join KG. then it was decided. then Tywin was mad, then Whent announced the tourney. then Aerys asked Jaime to directly attend this tourney as the official ceremony. 

 

 

 

 

[Ser Creighton]

No. Rhaegar participated in three tourneys that we know of, finishing 2nd, 2nd, and 1st. He lost in the finals at Lannisport to Dayne, and at Storm's End to Selmy. Prior to the HH tourney, he had only those two losses on his jousting record that we know of, but had an even record (1-1) with both of the men who defeated him. Based on what we know, he was arguably the best jouster in the realm at the time of the HH tourney. Whatever his fascination with Lyanna was, it gave him the extra boost needed to defeat all comers that day.

Isn't their a parallel with Jorah here, who spoke of Rhaegar often enough. Jorah was not a great tourney night, a great fighter but not a great tourney night. He also won one tournament for a woman. So Martin is clearly not afraid to play the motivational love card for a victory. He is pretty much the opposite of Rhaegar but it is essentially the same cause and effect. 

Though other Knight's may be less motivated to defeat him and at the same time others may be looking to make a name. Everything HH related seems complex to me, there was a lot going on.

[J. Stargaryen]

Isn't their a parallel with Jorah here, who spoke of Rhaegar often enough. Jorah was not a great tourney night, a great fighter but not a great tourney night. He also won one tournament for a woman. So Martin is clearly not afraid to play the motivational love card for a victory. He is pretty much the opposite of Rhaegar but it is essentially the same cause and effect. 

Though other Knight's may be less motivated to defeat him and at the same time others may be looking to make a name. Everything HH related seems complex to me, there was a lot going on.

There is something of a parallel there, I think. Though Rhaegar actually was a pretty great tourney knight, based on his previous results. It seems his main problem prior to HH was that he couldn't manage to defeat both Selmy and Dayne in the same tourney. I think we're supposed to believe that Rhaegar was motivated or inspired to win the tourney so he could crown Lyanna.

[purple-eyes]

There is something of a parallel there, I think. Though Rhaegar actually was a pretty great tourney knight, based on his previous results. It seems his main problem prior to HH was that he couldn't manage to defeat both Selmy and Dayne in the same tourney. I think we're supposed to believe that Rhaegar was motivated or inspired to win the tourney so he could crown Lyanna.

Oh yeah, Lyanna is GRRM's Mary Sue, he certainly kept a wild love card for her. 

Helen of Troy, Lyanna of Westeros. 

 

[ASOIAF_Ali]

I really hope it was fixed. Rhaegar is already in Gary Stu territory without him winning a tourney against renowned knights like Selmy and Dayne. I love the realism in GRRM's work, but if he really expects us to believe that Rhaegar won because he was inspired by the sight of Lyanna, I just can't... just yuck. 

It would be interesting though (IMO of course) if he had fixed it beforehand, or at least his winning could be put down to the fact that he was the crown prince and therefore no-one dared to unhorse him. 

[Sunandspear]

I really hope it was fixed. Rhaegar is already in Gary Stu territory without him winning a tourney against renowned knights like Selmy and Dayne. I love the realism in GRRM's work, but if he really expects us to believe that Rhaegar won because he was inspired by the sight of Lyanna, I just can't... just yuck. 

It would be interesting though (IMO of course) if he had fixed it beforehand, or at least his winning could be put down to the fact that he was the crown prince and therefore no-one dared to unhorse him. 

If Rhaegar is in Gary Stu territory, it's more due to the fans than GRRM. We know some of Rhaegar's actions, but we don't actually know him, because he's long dead. He's almost a legendary figure like the knights in the stories, so even if he comes across as a Gary Stu a little bit, it's natural. Knowing GRRM's style, it's unlikely that he's the perfect knight Dany, for example, imagines him to be. However, winning a tourney doesn't mean that he's a Gary Stu. I don't think GRRM expects us to believe he won it, because he fell madly in love with Lyanna. He won it, because he was a good knight and it was his lucky day. His love for Lyanna may or may not have inspired him to do better.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

If Rhaegar is in Gary Stu territory, it's more due to the fans than GRRM. We know some of Rhaegar's actions, but we don't actually know him, because he's long dead. He's almost a legendary figure like the knights in the stories, so even if he comes across as a Gary Stu a little bit, it's natural. Knowing GRRM's style, it's unlikely that he's the perfect knight Dany, for example, imagines him to be. However, winning a tourney doesn't mean that he's a Gary Stu. I don't think GRRM expects us to believe he won it, because he fell madly in love with Lyanna. He won it, because he was a good knight and it was his lucky day. His love for Lyanna may or may not have inspired him to do better.

Yeah that's true, I can't stand it when some fans try and justify all of his actions, it annoys me more than the character himself most of the time. I hope we get the truth about him though, I don't think it fits with GRRM's style to have him be the perfect prince that he seems at the moment. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I really hope it was fixed. Rhaegar is already in Gary Stu territory without him winning a tourney against renowned knights like Selmy and Dayne.

And so if he is? GRRM writes those, too. Baelor Breakspear as the most shining example.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

And so if he is? GRRM writes those, too. Baelor Breakspear as the most shining example.

 

Of course. And he can, it's his book. It's just one of the reasons I don't personally like him. 

[purple-eyes]

And so if he is? GRRM writes those, too. Baelor Breakspear as the most shining example.

 

The point is Baelor did something noble and died unfortunately and he did not cause a war and his family were not killed by his action. 

So I am OK with him as a shinning prince because he is. 

But Rhaegar did something bad and caused a war and his family were killed thanks to his action. 

So it is hard to agree him as a shinning prince. 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The point is Baelor did something noble and died unfortunately and he did not cause a war and his family were not killed by his action. 

So I am OK with him as a shinning prince because he is. 

But Rhaegar did something bad and caused a war and his family were killed thanks to his action. 

So it is hard to agree him as a shinning prince. 

 

So, you don't mind a Marty Stu if he's completely flawless and perfect? OK...

[purple-eyes]

So, you don't mind a Marty Stu if he's completely flawless and perfect? OK...

I do not like it. But if GRRM really wants to make him a flawless one, then at least he should be better than this. 

[Kal-L]

So, you don't mind a Marty Stu if he's completely flawless and perfect? OK...

Without using "Gary Stu" term, I feel that purple-eyes is saying that he doesn't mind Baelor's portrayal as the 'perfect knight' because he truly was that, so all the praises are deserved. On the other hand Rhaegar seems to be portrayed as such while his choices and the consequences doesn't reflect it.

[Veloknight]

Without using "Gary Stu" term, I feel that purple-eyes is saying that he doesn't mind Baelor's portrayal as the 'perfect knight' because he truly was that, so all the praises are deserved. On the other hand Rhaegar seems to be portrayed as such while his choices and the consequences doesn't reflect it.

See, what always confuses me about this is we always leap into, "therefore Rhaegar mus be completely different!" instead of, "therefore the events themselves are suspect". We already see in-universe history being written about the various intrigues going on, and it bares little resemblance to the actual events and their motivations.

We do not have any evidence to know what actually happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna or why, other than their probable child. We can attempt to judge them based on this shaky evidence, but I suspect their meetings probably had extenuating circumstances. This isn't out of a desire to exonerate one or both of them for what happened, but a desire to reconcile what we are told about their characters with what we're told happened.

Also, while both R and L are depicted somewhat 'flat' and legendary, they're not quite Stu territory. Even in the most heroic scenarios with Rhaegar paint him as a man who played the Game of Thrones against his father and either miscalculated, moved too cautiously, or failed to create adequate contingencies to protect his family. This makes him a plenty flawed person - the beef I think people have with this is it wouldn't make him a bad person.

[Red Man Racey]

There's nothing "Gary Stu" about GRRM's treatment of Rhaegar because the author isn't portraying Rhaegar as the perfect white knight. What we see is in-universe statements from people that liked him and it's completely realistic that 15 years after his death people would tend to whitewash the person that they admired -- emphasizing their positive traits while diminishing or outright ignoring their flaws. That's not Gary Stu, that's writing accurate characters because that's how people behave.

 

 

[FuzzyJAM]

Who even praises Rhaegar as perfect?  Even Selmy criticises him, despite his deep respect.  So who do we have that worship him?  The likes of Connington, who loved him, his sister Dany, who never knew him, and Cersei, who's crazy.  

I'm just not seeing where there's an idea that he's ever presented as perfect except through characters we know to have suspect judgement.  It's not that odd for someone to be good looking, a good knight, and a fine musician.  And it's not that odd for such a person to be admired by many, which is really all we know about him.  Especially in comparison to his awful father.  And especially when he can exist forever as potential rather than his rival Robert, who managed to somewhat squander the thoughts of those who saw in him another great man.  Going back to Selmy and Cersei: remember, Selmy thought very highly of Robert, high enough to switch allegiance...until he saw the corruption of his rule.  Meanwhile Cersei thought highly of him too...until the wedding night.  The whole Rhaegar/Robert thing seems very much to point to people having ideas about both of them before either ruled, and one dying before he could fail them, thus leaving him ever young and celebrated.

The whole thing seems a perfectly fine presentation of something plausible and thematically perfectly acceptable so I don't get the hate.  

[Ser Creighton]

There is something of a parallel there, I think. Though Rhaegar actually was a pretty great tourney knight, based on his previous results. It seems his main problem prior to HH was that he couldn't manage to defeat both Selmy and Dayne in the same tourney. I think we're supposed to believe that Rhaegar was motivated or inspired to win the tourney so he could crown Lyanna.

In general that seems to be what the idea is. Yeah parallel is a bit strong but it seems the same general idea. But when I bring up parallel, Jorah had a first wife and there were fertility issues, she died during her third miscarriage. They say a third child would of killed Elia so an inverse.  The second wife or love was Lynesse not all that different from Lyanna in name. They married for love and they met at a tourney in which Lynesse was crowned queen of love and beauty. Ned Stark was after both Rhaegar and Jorah. While in exile Jorah fought a war along a river, when Rhaegar returned from exile he fought a war along a river.

It's a bit of an inverse like Jeor standing aside to give Jorah his kingdom, and Rhaegar making an attempt to depose his father. It's not exact or anything but there are some clear similarities.