Evidence for and against Jon Snow's revival

[Bran the Shipper]

Sorry if this is a topic that has been discussed to death, but I find it interesting that most people agree that Jon is coming back.  Especially when most other predictions about future events seem to have little consensus.  But this is treated as not just the most likely prediction but is instead accepted as fact that he is coming back.

The more I think about it the more likely it seems like he will remain dead, but I want to compile a list of claims for and against to have a clearer view of where things stand at this moment.  Which we can then debate to give us something to do so we can waste time until Winds of Winter comes out... I mean to give us a better understanding of the situation.  I'm going to start with a tentative list, but I'm sure I'll miss some, I will then make my arguments as to why he is unlikely to return.

For:

His parentage has yet to come into play.

His arc would be wasted if he dies now.

He didn't even really die.

Melisandre is right there and we know red priests can raise the dead.

He could warg into Ghost.

Against:

His death is due to his own mistakes, thus fits the theme of consequences this series has.

Do we really need him anymore?

 

Why I don't think he will return.

First I think the argument that he isn't actually dead doesn't quite work.  His death was predicted by Melisandre near the beginning of ADWD, and he dies in a way that is in line with her predictions.  The comment about not feeling the fourth knife isn't that there was no fourth knife but that his mind was starting to shut down.  The line about only feeling the cold seems to be synonymous with death, so it seems clear to me that Martin intended for the reader to conclude that Jon Snow died.  While it is possible to argue that he didn't die I feel like that is only if you are coming into it trying to twist the events so that he didn't, but from an unbiased perspective you would conclude that he did die.

Now if he is in fact dead how can he be revived.  There are three primary ways we know about to survive your own death in ASoIaF: become a wight, revived by a red priest, live a second life within an animal/weirwood.  It is unlikely that he'll become a wight since the Wall is supposed to block the powers of the Others.  So that can likely be discarded, the other two options require deeper analysis.

Melisandre is nearby and has shown an interest in Jon but does that imply that she will give him the last kiss and thus bring him back to life.  I don't think so.  First Melisandre doesn't appear to know that the last kiss has that kind of property, as Thoros only stumbled upon it by accident, so then we can only assume she would perform the last kiss without intending to revive Jon.  But why would she?  Jon isn't a follower of R'hllor, instead he rejects Melisandre's aid and insults her powers.  When she has already tried again and again to help him and prevent his death why would she really do anything more for him?  If he wanted her help he had multiple opportunities to accept it.  While it is possible, I don't see it being likely, instead it seems to me like Melisandre would be putting distance between herself and Castle Black.  Since that place was a powder keg and Jon's death just lit the fuse.

Now of all three survival/revival methods Jon Snow living a second life in Ghost makes the most sense, and is very likely what will happen.  Considering Jon did call out Ghost's name before his death which could imply him reaching out to Ghost like one does when skinchanging.  But does Jon really have the ability to make this significant.  Trained skinchangers like Varamyr and Orell both live second lives in their thralls, and yet they are quickly reduced to being mere shadows of their former selves.  How long would it take Jon to suffer the same fate when, as far as I can recall he has only warged once and that was with Bran's help.  As far as I can see Jon warging into Ghost serves as some development for Ghost, but that Jon would be effectively dead.

That explains my point of view from an in-universe explanation but what about the problems with the narrative if he remains dead?  To be blunt I don't see a problem.  In regards to his parentage, AGoT (the book) makes it plenty clear who his parents really are without the need to actually solidify it any further.  Now shouldn't something come from that, well something has.  It is possible that his parentage is addressed to make him a red herring for the role of Azor Ahai, not for the characters but for the readers.  While someone might know his true parentage, without substantial proof would it really have any real political consequences?  He could've been one of Dany's dragon riders, but riding above everyone's heads on a dragon doesn't seem like where he would be best deployed.  It makes sense for Daenerys to be removed from danger in this way, but I think that Jon would inspire better morale and be more effective to fight the Others on foot were it to come to that. 

Also his death doesn't ruin his arc, because his arc is about the main conflict.  The Others only really play a prominent role in Jon's chapters, but they look to be the final conflict.  Actually I'm of the mind that in order for the Others to be the final conflict Jon can't come back.  Bringing him back runs too big of risk of having him deal with the threat all on his own, or at least just with some assistance with Bran.  If the Others are confined solely to Jon and Bran's chapters how can they really be the main conflict of the series.  But if Jon doesn't come back then all the work he has done will fall apart, necessitating the intervention of the other primary characters.

That is all I've got for now, please add to the list and present your own interpretations on what Jon's fate will be in the coming books.

[Many Faced Dude]

pretty much this

http://www.filmfutter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/GoTS6Poster.jpg 

[Sunandspear]

Even if we disregard that the show pretty much confirmed he is back (though I don't see why we would, I don't like what the show has done to the story for the past few seasons, but I don't think they'd mess up with something as important as Jon being dead), GRRM himself said something along the lines 'oh, so you think Jon's dead' when asked about it. 

Besides, I don't agree that Jon's arc is over. If your reasoning is that the Others can't be confined only to Jon and Bran's chapter, I don't see how permanently killing off Jon is going to solve it. And I don't think Jon can deal with their threat on his own. He needs allies and he will meet with a few other prominent characters along the way.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Alot of Jon hate these days. Let me guess dany fan? It's always one or the other sometimes with a little Stannis thrown in there. BTW sorry didn't read it seemed like a wall of....

 

And 

[ArabellaVidal]

If Jon is truly dead then GRRM is writing journalism not a storyline with a narrative purpose. Rh'llor is a waste of space and along with him the entire BWB plot, Stannis... Melisandre's POV was a giant red herring which adds nothing to the overarching plot and Martin is a huge troll...

Your point about Jon being AA as a red herring doesn't make sense. A red herring is someone obvious like Stannis, even Dany. Jon's parentage is so far still cloaked in mystery as far as most readers of the novels are concerned. According to your reading of the books, when all the mystery surrounding Jon is revealed, it will all have been a silly distraction because all the complications and tensions arising from his parentage, Ned's lies, Jon's seeming to be a bastard won't have any further consequences. GRRM might as well have written Jon as a true-born younger son who decides to take the black for other reasons.

 

[Hrulj]

Just let him die and R+L=J with him. 

Never was a theory so borring

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Jon's fate will be the nearest thing possible to the classic hero, and if some people don't like it, so be it; most will.

[Muggle]

Ellipsis - (plural ellipses; from the Ancient Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission" or "falling short") is a series of dots (typically three, such as "…") that usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

The chapter is unfinished. This is the only time in the book GRRM ends a chapter with a ... I believe.   We dont honestly know if he died.  So we dont know if he will be "revived"   I personally dont think he will die and become unJon

[Clegane'sPup]

First I would like to say that my opinion is that Jon was wounded. He didn’t feel the 4^th knife because the attackers didn’t get to finish their task. When he whispered “Ghost” was it recognition of why the animal had been acting up or did Jon actually see Ghost?  And as it has been stated  ^ the chapter ended with a … (more to be revealed)

His last chapter was very busy. People telling him to forget Hardhome, Ghost & Mormont’s raven were acting up, the pink/bastard letter arrives, talk about the two corpses, the speech in the shield hall, hint’s that Ser Patrek was trying to steal Val; very busy.

The attack takes place outside Hardin’s Tower. Keep in mind that when the commotion started northmen, free folk & Queen’s men had poured out from the surrounding keeps & towers. Someone or something stopped the attack. That is why Jon never felt the 4^th knife.  Mentally, emotionally & spiritually the boy in him dies and the man is born. There is still a lot of stuff for Jon to do.

[SevasTra82]

Ellipsis - (plural ellipses; from the Ancient Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission" or "falling short") is a series of dots (typically three, such as "…") that usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.

 

The chapter is unfinished. This is the only time in the book GRRM ends a chapter with a ... I believe.   We dont honestly know if he died.  So we dont know if he will be "revived"   I personally dont think he will die and become unJon

Bingo.

It's an overlooked fact in ADWD...Jon never died in the book.  He just got stabbed.  Everyone is just assuming he died, which very well may not be the case.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

First I think the argument that he isn't actually dead doesn't quite work.  His death was predicted by Melisandre near the beginning of ADWD, and he dies in a way that is in line with her predictions.  The comment about not feeling the fourth knife isn't that there was no fourth knife but that his mind was starting to shut down.  The line about only feeling the cold seems to be synonymous with death, so it seems clear to me that Martin intended for the reader to conclude that Jon Snow died.  While it is possible to argue that he didn't die I feel like that is only if you are coming into it trying to twist the events so that he didn't, but from an unbiased perspective you would conclude that he did die.

 

If we were supposed to believe that Lord Snow did die, then why would the author not wrap it up, dot over the i, dash across the t, and end with an unambiguous "and now his watch has ended"?

Yes, you are correct that "feeling cold" is a commonly used tool to signal someone about to kick the bucket. And that tool sometimes get played with.

You bring up Melisandre's prediction. Have you noticed that Mel's predictions do come true, but not without some bizarre twist? She saw Renly dying by Storm's End, and she saw Renly crushing Stannis' forces under the walls of King's Landing. Both coming true, after a fashion, was quite a surprise. Another fun one: Jojen predicted Bran and Rickon's dead and flayed bodies hanged for display at Winterfell, and also his predictions "always come true". And while they did materialize, Bran and Rickon still draw breath nevertheless.

Bottom line, I'll wait until Lord Snow is officially pronounced dead, before I start speculate about his eventual revival.

[Hrulj]

 

If we were supposed to believe that Lord Snow did die, then why would the author not wrap it up, dot over the i, dash across the t, and end with an unambiguous "and now his watch has ended"?

Yes, you are correct that "feeling cold" is a commonly used tool to signal someone about to kick the bucket. And that tool sometimes get played with.

You bring up Melisandre's prediction. Have you noticed that Mel's predictions do come true, but not without some bizarre twist? She saw Renly dying by Storm's End, and she saw Renly crushing Stannis' forces under the walls of King's Landing. Both coming true, after a fashion, was quite a surprise. Another fun one: Jojen predicted Bran and Rickon's dead and flayed bodies hanged for display at Winterfell, and also his predictions "always come true". And while they did materialize, Bran and Rickon still draw breath nevertheless.

Bottom line, I'll wait until Lord Snow is officially pronounced dead, before I start speculate about his eventual revival.

How does dying feel like? How would he describe dying and losing blood except losing sensation and feeling cold? I mean what do you want, an afterlife chapter?

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

How does dying feel like? How would he describe dying and losing blood except losing sensation and feeling cold? I mean what do you want, an afterlife chapter?

how about this writing rule 102 never kill off a character in their own POV unless you absolutely have to. Jon and Mel are POVs on the wall. Catelyn was the only POV at the red wedding... <-

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

How does dying feel like? How would he describe dying and losing blood except losing sensation and feeling cold? I mean what do you want, an afterlife chapter?

Another POV seeing him kicking the bucket. Or seeing his dead body.

[desire]

How does dying feel like? How would he describe dying and losing blood except losing sensation and feeling cold? I mean what do you want, an afterlife chapter?

Didn't the six skins detail it in the POV in dance?

[imaginepageant]

I've actually just started a re-read to compile all of the evidence and foreshadowing of Jon's imminent resurrection; hopefully I can finish before TWOW and/or season six.

The main reason I am convinced that he will be resurrected is Varamyr Sixskins. Each prologue introduces a major storyline or event: AGOT introduces the Others, ACOK introduces Stannis, Melisandre, and R'hllor, ASOS introduces mutiny within the Night's Watch and solidifies the presence and threat of the Others, AFFC introduces the Citadel and the possible conspiracy of the Faceless Men that may yet unfold... and ADWD introduces the idea of warging into an animal at the moment of your death and living out a second life within them. This must be a precursor for something, or else it's completely pointless, and that doesn't fit with the pattern of prologues in each previous book. We know of five potential wargs; Robb and Sansa can be counted out (Robb and Grey Wind are dead, Lady is dead), and Bran and Arya are both highly unlikely candidates to live a second life in their direwolves considering their current situations (Bran is becoming a tree, Arya is separated from Nymeria by the Narrow Sea). That leaves Jon, who just happens to die at the end of the same book in which the second life is introduced, and whose last word is the name of his direwolf. This cannot be a coincidence. It seems glaringly obvious to me that Varamyr Sixskins and his prologue story was meant to show us that Jon can indeed survive death through warging into Ghost.

(However, I believe he'll only be in Ghost long enough for his body to be resurrected by Melisandre.)

Beyond that, I truly don't think Jon's arc has reached its conclusion, and it would simply be bad writing to build up his character and his story only to cut it off before it reaches any true climax. George may be a bit of a rambler, but he is not a bad writer.

[Hrulj]

how about this writing rule 102 never kill off a character in their own POV unless you absolutely have to. Jon and Mel are POVs on the wall. Catelyn was the only POV at the red wedding... <-

And how would Melisandre chapter go? I sat on the wall, looking at a torch when a bunch of men huddled together. I couldnt hear them or see them clearly but they seemed to be showing. Silly Westerosi. Look one of them is so drunk that he passed out? 

Would we get an emotional coaster of betrayal, fear, death from her as we would from Jon?

Another POV seeing him kicking the bucket. Or seeing his dead body.

Story had to end somewhere. We hopefully will get another chapter with Mel or someone else where they burn his body. 

Didn't the six skins detail it in the POV in dance?

Mind to remind me, I forgot

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

I've actually just started a re-read to compile all of the evidence and foreshadowing of Jon's imminent resurrection; hopefully I can finish before TWOW and/or season six.

The main reason I am convinced that he will be resurrected is Varamyr Sixskins. Each prologue introduces a major storyline or event: AGOT introduces the Others, ACOK introduces Stannis, Melisandre, and R'hllor, ASOS introduces mutiny within the Night's Watch and solidifies the presence and threat of the Others, AFFC introduces the Citadel and the possible conspiracy of the Faceless Men that may yet unfold... and ADWD introduces the idea of warging into an animal at the moment of your death and living out a second life within them. This must be a precursor for something, or else it's completely pointless, and that doesn't fit with the pattern of prologues in each previous book. We know of five potential wargs; Robb and Sansa can be counted out (Robb and Grey Wind are dead, Lady is dead), and Bran and Arya are both highly unlikely candidates to live a second life in their direwolves considering their current situations (Bran is becoming a tree, Arya is separated from Nymeria by the Narrow Sea). That leaves Jon, who just happens to die at the end of the same book in which the second life is introduced, and whose last word is the name of his direwolf. This cannot be a coincidence. It seems glaringly obvious to me that Varamyr Sixskins and his prologue story was meant to show us that Jon can indeed survive death through warging into Ghost.

(However, I believe he'll only be in Ghost long enough for his body to be resurrected by Melisandre.)

Beyond that, I truly don't think Jon's arc has reached its conclusion, and it would simply be bad writing to build up his character and his story only to cut it off before it reaches any true climax. George may be a bit of a rambler, but he is not a bad writer.

actually it wouldn't be bad writing. People fail and or die sometimes no matter how great they are destined to be ie Both Kennedys. It would be realism. But you're right it doesn't fit the narrative to off him. Let alone in his own pov.

[joluoto2]

I wouldn't use the show to confirm anything, but I think there are enough clues in the book that he will survive in some capacity.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

And how would Melisandre chapter go? I sat on the wall, looking at a torch when a bunch of men huddled together. I couldnt hear them or see them clearly but they seemed to be showing. Silly Westerosi. Look one of them is so drunk that he passed out? 

Would we get an emotional coaster of betrayal, fear, death from her as we would from Jon?

Story had to end somewhere. We hopefully will get another chapter with Mel or someone else where they burn his body. 

Mind to remind me, I forgot

yeah that would be exactly how it would go.. if you were writing it. 

How many emotions did you feel reading the red wedding. While you watched people you were rooting for get slaughtered or fight for their lives unarmed and unarmored. We would get no less then that. No we would get way more.. that's a major POV being killed off.