Theon rant

[Nevets]

He rapes Kyra.

Given that she later tries to rescue him, and dies in the process, it doesn't sound as if she held it against him, if indeed that is what happened.

[INCBlackbird]

While I agree that he in no way deserved what he got, he did betray Robb.  If A sends B as an envoy to negotiate an alliance with C, and B instead joins C and attacks A, capturing his home and taking his family captive, has B betrayed A?  Is this even a question??  Of course he has.  If you want to argue it was justified, fine.  You might get a nice argument.  But don't try to say ti wasn't a betrayal of Robb, because it absolutely was.  If you agree to be someone's envoy, you owe him your loyalty.

As for Theon,he's a pathetic little shit who made a series of mindbogglingly bad decisions, and did acts (such as the murder of the millers' boys, and the taking of Winterfell in the first place) that I find indefensible.  His torture and his rescue of Jeyne Poole are a partial redemption, but if he is, for example, sacrificed by Stannis, which I think is possible, I will say "good riddance".   I will not be sorry in the least to see him die

if A was a hostage of B he doesn't owe B any loyalty in the first place, not to mention that Theon actually did what he was supposed to do, he gave his dad Robb's message, he even defended it but his father couldn't be convinced. what did you expect Theon to do then? It wasn't in his power to give Robb what he wanted, he did his best but Balon couldn't be convinced...
 

[Artos Cold]

This thread has really spiraled out of control. 

[INCBlackbird]

Really? Can i get a quote?

“He sent for Kyra, kicked shut the door, climbed on top of her, and fucked the wench with a fury he’d never known was in him. By the time he finished, she was sobbing, her neck and breasts covered with bruises and bite marks. Theon shoved her from the bed and threw her a blanket. ‘Get out.’ Yet even then, he could not sleep.” - Theon V (A Clash of Kings)

[Hrulj]

Snip...

source: http://visceraeyes420.tumblr.com/post/134795408321/theon-greyjoy-rant

First, Theon killed 2 boys. He chose his faith. And had he not been tortured he would never have been sorry for what he has done.

I would have done worse things to him than Ramsay for what he has done

[Artos Cold]

 

“He sent for Kyra, kicked shut the door, climbed on top of her, and fucked the wench with a fury he’d never known was in him. By the time he finished, she was sobbing, her neck and breasts covered with bruises and bite marks. Theon shoved her from the bed and threw her a blanket. ‘Get out.’ Yet even then, he could not sleep.” - Theon V (A Clash of Kings)

 

Like Nevets said, if this really was rape, then she doesnt seem to hold it against him. 

[Nevets]

[INCBlackbird]

First, Theon killed 2 boys. He chose his faith. And had he not been tortured he would never have been sorry for what he has done.

I would have done worse things to him than Ramsay for what he has done

Theon was sorry the moment he did it, GRRM wrote an entire chapter of him having guilt nightmares to make that clear... not to mention all the times he feels guilty in his other chapters.

[INCBlackbird]

Like Nevets said, if this really was rape, then she doesnt seem to hold it against him. 

In their world it certainly wouldn't be considered rape, in our world it probably would but I think we simply have too little information to determine wether or not it was rape. And indeed she didn't seem to hold it against him, moreso she begged him to stay with her, she looked to him for protection! I think it's a far stretch to call him a rapist...

[Orphalesion]

I do feel for Reek. I really do.

Theon however....he murdered two children to cover up his failure. I find it very very hard to feel sympathetic for characters who murder non-combatants.

Yes Westeros is much, much more brutal than the modern age and live has much less value over there, but I find it a bit dangerous to forgive a character's actions, especially things like rape or murder, only because they were common place in their society.

I also understand that Theon was a mentally messed up teenager under a lot of stress and manipulated by Ramsay. and if itt wasn't for that fact and his transformation into Reek I would not find Theon the least bit sympathetic. Martin is very good in humanizing villainous characters to such a degree that you sometimes even forget their past crimes. Reek is one of them for me.

I am conflicted about whether or not he can still redeem himself. One on hand I like to believe that nobody is beyond redemption and that he has suffered more than enough for his crimes, on the other hand I can't justify what he has done during his short reign in WInterfell.

I don't hate him to the extend I hate Gregor, Aerys or Twyin and I find his chapters a very good read and more enjoyable than large parts of DWD/FFC but he is not innocent anymore and no amount of apologetics can do away with him butchering children.

 

[mmenolas]

 

“He sent for Kyra, kicked shut the door, climbed on top of her, and fucked the wench with a fury he’d never known was in him. By the time he finished, she was sobbing, her neck and breasts covered with bruises and bite marks. Theon shoved her from the bed and threw her a blanket. ‘Get out.’ Yet even then, he could not sleep.” - Theon V (A Clash of Kings)

 

Like Nevets said, if this really was rape, then she doesnt seem to hold it against him. 

"if this was really rape"-- That's a joke right?  Re-read the quote. Does consensual sex usually end with one party sobbing?  If so, you might be doing it wrong...

[Nevets]

if A was a hostage of B he doesn't owe B any loyalty in the first place, not to mention that Theon actually did what he was supposed to do, he gave his dad Robb's message, he even defended it but his father couldn't be convinced. what did you expect Theon to do then? It wasn't in his power to give Robb what he wanted, he did his best but Balon couldn't be convinced...
 

So is it your suggestion that his takeover of Winterfell was not a betrayal of Robb?  He has long since ceased to be a hostage, and his taking of Winterfell exceeded even his father's instructions.  His taking of Winterfell is what really stabbed Robb in the back.

[Hrulj]

Theon was sorry the moment he did it, GRRM wrote an entire chapter of him having guilt nightmares to make that clear... not to mention all the times he feels guilty in his other chapters.

He doesnt know what sorry is until Ramsay gets his hands on him. Sorry helps no one. Those boys are dead. Would it change anything if I killed the entire human race and then felt sorry about it?

[Narvi]

What is dead may never die but rises harder and stronger. Theon will get through all this. 

[INCBlackbird]

I do feel for Reek. I really do.

Theon however....he murdered two children to cover up his failure. I find it very very hard to feel sympathetic for characters who murder non-combatants.

Yes Westeros is much, much more brutal than the modern age and live has much less value over there, but I find it a bit dangerous to forgive a character's actions, especially things like rape or murder, only because they were common place in their society.

I also understand that Theon was a mentally messed up teenager under a lot of stress and manipulated by Ramsay. and if itt wasn't for that fact and his transformation into Reek I would not find Theon the least bit sympathetic. Martin is very good in humanizing villainous characters to such a degree that you sometimes even forget their past crimes. Reek is one of them for me.

I am conflicted about whether or not he can still redeem himself. One on hand I like to believe that nobody is beyond redemption and that he has suffered more than enough for his crimes, on the other hand I can't justify what he has done during his short reign in WInterfell.

I don't hate him to the extend I hate Gregor, Aerys or Twyin and I find his chapters a very good read and more enjoyable than large parts of DWD/FFC but he is not innocent anymore and no amount of apologetics can do away with him butchering children.

 

but that's the thing... Theon killed two children, and a few adults... how many children do you think in Robb's war, yet fans aren't screaming about how he deserves to be tortured...

I don't nessacarily think these actions should be excused but they should be put into context. It's also not just about these things being commonplace, it's about the fact that in our lives we don't have to make decisions like whether or not to kill someone to save our own skin, in a world like Westeros almost everyone (especially the highborn during war) have to make difficult decisions like that. And I think that many of us, if we were put in situations like that wouldn't do any better, especially when you're, like Theon a as you put it a "mentally messed up teenager under a lot of stress"

[thelittledragonthatcould]

In their world it certainly wouldn't be considered rape, in our world it probably would but I think we simply have too little information to determine wether or not it was rape. And indeed she didn't seem to hold it against him, moreso she begged him to stay with her, she looked to him for protection! I think it's a far stretch to call him a rapist...

It was rape, even in the world they live in.

But she is a commoner and would have complied. She was aware of her place and her rights in that world and she, like many smallfolk, would have gone along with it as they would not have the same alternatives to fight back as people in out society have had for quite some time.

 

[BrettG]

I find Theon to be one of the most tragic characters in the books, and his chapters are probably the best in all of ADWD.  I think he's one of the most well-written characters in the series, and his arc is definitely more interesting to me than, say, Jon's.  I think the OP lays out his predicament fairly well, and I do have sympathy for him.  I don't agree that he didn't betray Robb, and I don't want to excuse any of the horrible shit he did at Winterfell, but the events that led to them are compelling, and add shades of gray to what would otherwise be a pretty cliched villain (a Ramsay, if you will).  And yeah, his punishment VASTLY exceeded the crime.  This was one of the most interesting parts of ADWD for me, having me do an almost total reversal on Theon.  I went from disliking him at the end of Clash to rooting for him to escape and survive in Dance, and none of it felt contrived or silly, so hats off to Martin on that one.  I think Theon has always regretted the actions he took, I think most of them were taken in the heat of the moment without thought and/or at Ramsay's urging, and though he's already redeemed himself in a fashion by the end of Dance, I'd like to see that continue.

[desire]

Feel very sad for him. Balon said only one thing that at least made sense God I hope they killed him. Just hope he dies soon 

[INCBlackbird]

So is it your suggestion that his takeover of Winterfell was not a betrayal of Robb?  He has long since ceased to be a hostage, and his taking of Winterfell exceeded even his father's instructions.  His taking of Winterfell is what really stabbed Robb in the back.

yeah that is my "suggestion". Theon is a Greyjoy who fought for his family, he didn't owe Robb anything. Do you think Robb would have betrayed his family for Theon? He wouldn't have, so why would Theon have to betray his family for Robb?

[FuzzyJAM]

What do you consider the majority of characters?  Are you just counting POVs or is it just everyone?  Because Theon isn't really worse than any of the Lannister POVs, other Greyjoy POVs, and a few others.

I meant characters in general.  

I agree that most POVs have done awful things and deserve punishment, but in general I'd say the likes of the Starks, Jon, Brienne, Sam and Areo are notably better (or less bad, if you prefer) people.  And when you get to characters like Jaime or Dany who have done awful things, you can argue that their actions are mitigated in X or Y ways.  Maybe I don't always agree with such mitigation, but I can at least see where others are coming from when they claim it.  Theon, though?  At best you can say "His upbringing wasn't all that wonderful", which to me really isn't a defence at all.

as in Theon is reponsible for the deaths of what... 20 people? a little more maybe. Stannis, Robb, Daenerys (all characters I like and are generally liked by the fandom) are responsible for thousends upon thousends of deaths...

So you see literally no difference between killing people in battle and killing children in cold blood?  When Theon killed Wildlings attacking Bran, that was entirely morally equal to when he killed the miller's boys?  If that's seriously your position, I guess we have too different an idea of morality to discuss, then.